Historical relevance of Kucherov and MacKinnon's 2024 season?

Matsun

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I'll point out that 1952-53 was lower scoring than this. Scoring slowly crept up from 1950-1967 and it can make taking a window hard as year 1 is similar to year 2, but year 1 is noticeably lower than year 5.

Howe 95
Lindsay 71
Richard 61
Hergensheimer 59
Delvecchio 59

Spots 2, 3, 4, and 5 are all lower in 1952-53 than in 1956, 1966, or 1967.
I think 53 Howe is probably untouchable for anyone except McDavid and Jagr if he could sustain his 99 calendar year pace. The other prime Howe years I think a big peak year could threaten him like we saw Sakic and Thornton do with Jagr.
 

Vilica

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I've had a bunch of long posts that I've ultimately chosen not to post because it feels like the people I'm arguing against will never update their priors. One of them recently for this thread was a breakdown of Kucherov's last two years, showing that the only difference between them is stuff we know is random and not under a player's control (his even strength on-ice shooting percentage and his individual points percentage). Another one was taking that random variance around a true talent level, and showing just how much point totals can vary based on those numbers. It just feels like there is a group that is aggressively just not about the math, because to me all of this is perfectly supported by like a basic variance calculation.

Why do we have more outlier seasons now? Because when you throw 100 player-seasons at a wall instead of 18, you get more opportunities.

People like to have narratives, to think there's something controlling results, but really it's all variance. You have this whole justification of even strength vs power play opportunities, depth scorers, less assists per goal, less teams or more teams, when the reality is that scoring hasn't changed in 80 years. You look at seasons at nearly exact scoring levels, and generally the normal curve of scoring pops out seasons to populate itself. That curve fills out with a much smoother distribution with 100 samples compared to 18 though.

That expanded curve still is a small sample in the scheme of simulating a full season. The era between 11-12 and 15-16 was a stagnant period for scoring, alternating between 218 and 219, prorating 12-13 to 82 games. Each year, the VsX benchmark should have been between 95-96, but that only occurred in 11-12 and 12-13 (prorating again). In 2 of the other 3 years, you had the superstar season above the benchmark (Crosby's 13-14, Kane's 15-16), but without the secondary season that matches the benchmark (like Stamkos' 11-12). The same concept happened earlier, like the 86-87 through 89-90 seasons, 4 straight years of similar scoring (league average was 294, 297, 299, 295 in those years), and you see VsX numbers of 108, 131, 139, and 129. By my numbers, all 4 years should've been in that 130 range, but it overshot in 1 year and undershot in another. It's hard when you're just relying on so few players - if Mario plays 75 games in 86-87 instead of 63, he ends up with about 130 points, and that benchmark would've been correct.

In the end, even having the correct benchmarks really isn't that important in the scheme of things. Does knowing the VsX in 52-53 should've been 73.64 instead of 61 take anything away from Howe's 95 point season? It just means his VsX would've been 128.99 instead of 155.74. Compare that to McDavid's 22-23, where the benchmark was spot on at 113, and McDavid's VsX goes from 135.40 to 135.28. Even then, in those extreme outlier seasons, the difference between 135 and 129 is essentially just 5 points. This year, VsX was set at 120, whereas my numbers have it around 111. For Kucherov, that's the difference between a 120 and a 129.84 VsX score, for MacKinnon 116.67 and 126.23. The absolute difference between 155, 135, 129, and 120 matters not, it's the fact that they're all 20-30% above peak seasons.
 

Midnight Judges

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Agree, VsX is unnecessarily volatile and could easily be smoothed with data from surrounding seasons in years where environmental changes were minimal.
 

BraveCanadian

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I think this season is a great demonstration of how little value GPG/GPG actually provides.

I wouldn't be opposed to say Kucherov 24 and MacKinnon 24 are the two best non McDavid seasons post lockout.

No matter how many times the obvious flaws in adjusting by average goals per game are pointed out.. the damn thing just won’t die!
 
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Despote

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I've had a bunch of long posts that I've ultimately chosen not to post because it feels like the people I'm arguing against will never update their priors. One of them recently for this thread was a breakdown of Kucherov's last two years, showing that the only difference between them is stuff we know is random and not under a player's control (his even strength on-ice shooting percentage and his individual points percentage).
This doesn't seem to fit in with tracked data. Kucherov was creating scoring chances at a much better rate in 23-24 than 22-23.

1713903396412.png
 
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daver

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Compare that to McDavid's 22-23, where the benchmark was spot on at 113, and McDavid's VsX goes from 135.40 to 135.28. Even then, in those extreme outlier seasons, the difference between 135 and 129 is essentially just 5 points. This year, VsX was set at 120, whereas my numbers have it around 111. For Kucherov, that's the difference between a 120 and a 129.84 VsX score, for MacKinnon 116.67 and 126.23. The absolute difference between 155, 135, 129, and 120 matters not, it's the fact that they're all 20-30% above peak seasons.

So according to VsX, here are how the last two years are rated:

McDavid 22/23 - 135
Kucherov 23/24 - 120 (13% behind)

MacKinnon 23/24 - 117 (15% behind)
In raw numbers,

McDavid 22/23 - 153

Kucherov 23/24 - 144 (6% behind)

MacKinnon 23/24 - 140 (9% behind)


That doesn't pass the smell test given league GPG was slightly lower this past season and the PPGs of the #10/#25/#50 scorers were almost identical from 22/23 to 23/24.

Is there something I am missing here that VsX captures?
 

Professor What

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So according to VsX, here are how the last two years are rated:

McDavid 22/23 - 135
Kucherov 23/24 - 120 (13% behind)

MacKinnon 23/24 - 117 (15% behind)
In raw numbers,

McDavid 22/23 - 153

Kucherov 23/24 - 144 (6% behind)

MacKinnon 23/24 - 140 (9% behind)


That doesn't pass the smell test given league GPG was slightly lower this past season and the PPGs of the #10/#25/#50 scorers were almost identical from 22/23 to 23/24.

Is there something I am missing here that VsX captures?
Well for one thing, you aren't supposed to compare across years with VsX, just within a season. It's supposed to capture the environment of a specific season and what you did doesn't allow that.
 
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sr edler

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The way MacKinnon regularly cuts through the middle of the ice with speed like that, his patented north–south move with a twirl, there's just no way in hell he could have played like that 20–25 years ago with guys like Kasparaitis, Stevens, Samuelsson, Marchment, et cetera, lurking in the d-zone backwaters.

Remember this is a guy that was clipped/brutalised by Taylor Hall of all people, i.e. not even someone actually malicious and out to overtly hurt you.

Kucherov's a more timeless and sneaky player, IMO.
 

daver

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Well for one thing, you aren't supposed to compare across years with VsX, just within a season. It's supposed to capture the environment of a specific season and what you did doesn't allow that.

So what is the point VsX if not to compare across years for the same player and in comparison to other players?

You don't think that McDavid's 135 number is significant in relation to Kucherov's 120 number? Both were Art Ross wins but VsX indicates McDavid's was clearly superior.
 

Professor What

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So what is the point VsX if not to compare across years for the same player and in comparison to other players?

You don't think that McDavid's 135 number is significant in relation to Kucherov's 120 number? Both were Art Ross wins but VsX indicates McDavid's was clearly superior.
The point isn't comparing raw stats from different seasons, but having a formula that tries -- not I say tries since it's only a tool -- to show how dominant a player was within his own season. Those ratios can then be used to try -- again try -- to get an idea of how one season stacked up against another. Simply saying A got B points in C season while D got E in F season, so whatever is more impressive is not what VsX is.
 

MadLuke

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Well for one thing, you aren't supposed to compare across years with VsX, just within a season. It's supposed to capture the environment of a specific season and what you did doesn't allow that.
What would VsX within a season tell us more than just looking directly how many points that season for the players ?

At first I thought it was a joke to mock VsX....
 

Professor What

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What would VsX within a season tell us more than just looking directly how many points that season for the players ?

At first I thought it was a joke to mock VsX....
It tries to tell us how dominant a player was as compared to his peers. The post I was quoting was purporting to compare how dominant a performance was as compared to another season. Different environments, so that doesn't work so directly. But if I have a VsX for a player in 2024, I can try to get an idea of how his season stacks up against someone from 1974. But I don't throw the raw stats of 2024 and 1974 into the blender together. That tells us less than nothing. And no, I'm not mocking Vsx. Just trying to point out a flaw in the reasoning in another post.
 

MadLuke

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But if I have a VsX for a player in 2024, I can try to get an idea of how his season stacks up against someone from 1974.
Exactly the exact opposite of the : you aren't supposed to compare across years with VsX, just within a season,, statement, I could be missing something or there was some typo.

The whole point of the exercise is to quickly compare how dominant to their peers were in different season, for comparing people in the same season, quick look at the actual Top 20 seem easy and much better.
 
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daver

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It tries to tell us how dominant a player was as compared to his peers. The post I was quoting was purporting to compare how dominant a performance was as compared to another season. Different environments, so that doesn't work so directly. But if I have a VsX for a player in 2024, I can try to get an idea of how his season stacks up against someone from 1974. But I don't throw the raw stats of 2024 and 1974 into the blender together. That tells us less than nothing. And no, I'm not mocking Vsx. Just trying to point out a flaw in the reasoning in another post.

That's perfect. I was questioning how VsX does that if it only uses one stat (2nd place) in the equation.

The environments seem to be very similar, if not the exact same , for 22/23 and 23/24, so one would expect the VsX to mirror the raw numbers.

Yes, McDavid stood out more from his peers than this past season where two peers effectively matched him.

But all four point totals stood out from the pack in a similar manner which is not reflected as well in VsX.
 

Professor What

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Exactly the exact opposite of the : you aren't supposed to compare across years with VsX, just within a season,, statement, I could be missing something or there was some typo.

The whole point of the exercise is to quickly compare how dominant to their peers were in different season, for comparing people in the same season, quick look at the actual Top 20 seem easy and much better.
I have a feeling that's on me for a poor phrasing. What I meant is that you don't take the raw numbers from one season and use VsX to compare them to the raw numbers for another season. What I was criticizing was trying to get a VsX equivalency using numbers from two different seasons, rather than using the ratios.
That's perfect. I was questioning how VsX does that if it only uses one stat (2nd place) in the equation.

The environments seem to be very similar, if not the exact same , for 22/23 and 23/24, so one would expect the VsX to mirror the raw numbers.

Yes, McDavid stood out more from his peers than this past season where two peers effectively matched him.

But all four point totals stood out from the pack in a similar manner which is not reflected as well in VsX.
I don't agree that the environments are so similar. You had more outliers this season than you did last season, and there is an eerie parallel it seems between this year and 1992-93, which stands out from the surrounding years. I stand by saying that what you did in trying to compare raw numbers from different seasons by using VsX and not using the ratios is a flawed application of the tool.
 

WarriorofTime

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VsX, as used here, really struggles with recognizing when a bunch of outlier seasons happen, it doesn't necessarily mean the scoring is easier for generic top 5 scorers across time and space. That doesn't make sense. Showing what 50 guys are doing gives a good feel of what it means for how 1st liners were doing. A Vs5 doesn't tell you if there were 5 really good seasons or not, and in a 32 team league, there's room for that without meaning it's just easy for top line players to score. 2011-12 is an easy example of how flawed that works. Crosby is out, Ovechkin plays a trap, Kane is bad wrist/out of position/worst season, the East has all the top scorers while the West has all the top teams. The VsX crowd says wow Malkin was so far ahead, his season was truly that much more amazing than comparable scoring environments, but step back and look more at context there. Jason Spezza and Ilya Kovalchuk having pretty good seasons by their standards and finishing 4th and 5th doesn't make them an easy carryover across time and space 4th and 5th scorer based on that season. When you look at top players from an era and a specific season in relation to the seasons surrounding it and in conjunction with league-wide scoring, the big gaps are easy to see.
 

MadLuke

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I don't agree that the environments are so similar. You had more outliers this season than you did last season, and there is an eerie parallel it seems between this year and 1992-93, which stands out from the surrounding years. I stand by saying that what you did in trying to compare raw numbers from different seasons by using VsX and not using the ratios is a flawed application of the tool.
Not sure on both account here.

If we look at how many points to make the top 10, if the scoring environment is higher for first liner in a good spot, it should jump.

91: 101
92: 99
93: 123
94: 99

(92-93 was easier to score on by first PP unit player all around the league, drastic shift all-around, making the top 30 went from needing 78 to 93pts)

In comparison, league did not seem to move since 2002.
2022: 97
2023: 102
2024: 98

Outside the big 3 2024, scoring seem to be exactly the same among top scorer.

Miller scored 99 in 2022, scored 103 this year, Pastrnak scored 113 last year, 110 this year, etc.. Robertson scored more points last season than Matthews this year.

If we remove the Kucherov-Mack-Mcdavid of each season Top 10, the average among of points for top 10 scorer become
2023: 110
2024: 106

Drai scoring is why top scorer pts average went a little bit down in 2024 I imagine, it is quite similar otherwise.

It is more similar to what happened in 1989 imo

Making the top 10

87: 95
88: 106
89: 98
90: 102
91: 101

88-89 was not a specially high scoring season if you did not play with Lemieux-Gretzky, it was just Yzerman having an historic peak year in a league with Gretzky-Mario being healthy. Jimmy Carson scored 100pts versus 107 the year before, etc...
 
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daver

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I have a feeling that's on me for a poor phrasing. What I meant is that you don't take the raw numbers from one season and use VsX to compare them to the raw numbers for another season. What I was criticizing was trying to get a VsX equivalency using numbers from two different seasons, rather than using the ratios.

And I was criticizing VsX for not taking enough data into consideration by pointing out an apparent "doesn't pass the smell test" example.

I can justify the raw numbers comparison given that the environments were almost identical statistically e.g. league GPG (actually a small edge to 23/24), and more importantly, IMO, the average PPG of the Top 10/25/50 scorers was almost identical.

And we are talking one year apart with no apparent trends/factors to account for.
 

daver

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I don't agree that the environments are so similar. You had more outliers this season than you did last season.

You had two players who put up seasons that were not expected while McDavid's was expected. After that, there are no more notable outliers than there were in the previous two seasons.

88/89 seems like the best comparable. Yzerman hits a level that he never reached before or gets close to again. Bernie Nichols has one of the all-time spike seasons in NHL history (with an assist from Wayne).

At this juncture, MacKinnon seems to have placed himself in the Trottier/Sakic/Yzerman tier. Kucherov is there among the Top 30/40 tier level player too.

We are seeing an unusual drop in overall sv % that isn't attributed to a rise in PP opportunities: NHL League Averages | Hockey-Reference.com

The question is whether this has opened the door to unexpected/outlier seasons, seasons that statistically are among the best non Big 4 seasons all-time, by non-generational level talent or was this a one off season like Yzerman's 88/89 that just happened twice in the same year.

The difference between 23/24 and 88/89 was that Yzerman was still significantly behind peak Mario and behind prime, but post-peak, Wayne while Kucherov and MacKinnon were in peak McDavid territory.
 

jigglysquishy

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Panarin was absolutely an outlier this year and is why vsx breaks this season. His 120 points for 4th is the 9th highest in NHL history.

I've long advocated the Bathgate rule needs tweaking in a deeper league to be 5%/5% instead of 7%/7%.

If you look at the scoring tables, it's clear that Pastrnak at 110 is the real benchmark. It would mean a benchmark of 115, 113, 110 over the last 3 seasons instead of 115,113,120.

Or better yet, the X this year is the mid point between Pastrnak and Panarin at 115 points.
 

Professor What

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You had two players who put up seasons that were not expected while McDavid's was expected. After that, there are no more notable outliers than there were in the previous two seasons.

88/89 seems like the best comparable. Yzerman hits a level that he never reached before or gets close to again. Bernie Nichols has one of the all-time spike seasons in NHL history (with an assist from Wayne).

At this juncture, MacKinnon seems to have placed himself in the Trottier/Sakic/Yzerman tier. Kucherov is there among the Top 30/40 tier level player too.

We are seeing an unusual drop in overall sv % that isn't attributed to a rise in PP opportunities: NHL League Averages | Hockey-Reference.com

The question is whether this has opened the door to unexpected/outlier seasons, seasons that statistically are among the best non Big 4 seasons all-time, by non-generational level talent or was this a one off season like Yzerman's 88/89 that just happened twice in the same year.

The difference between 23/24 and 88/89 was that Yzerman was still significantly behind peak Mario and behind prime, but post-peak, Wayne while Kucherov and MacKinnon were in peak McDavid territory.
The more I look at things, the less I believe that neither of the seasons being discussed are good parallels. But I also don't believe that the comparison between two different seasons worked. Expected or not, there were, simply put, more outliers this season than last season. I don't see what whether they were expected or not has anything to do with it. With the suggestion that Panarin may be an outlier, that's complicated ever further.

I don't think that either of the seasons being discussed really work for the following reasons. 1988-89: As you yourself point out, there was a big gap between the outliers that year. That's not the case this year. Any one of those guys could get the Hart and it wouldn't feel like a travesty. 1992-93: Mario separated himself a little, but it wasn't a massive amount, and then after that, there was a much smoother gradient than I remembered when I suggested the season as a comparable one.

But another thing that hasn't been pointed out yet is that you're trying to use VsX across seasons where one of them used the default rule, and the other had to go into the "special rules." I just simply don't think it works, at least not without some history in the rear view mirror to show that it does. I'll concede this much: in 10 years, maybe we can look back and see that it works, but we can't do that now. You brought up the drop in save percentage. That's one factor that suggests a different environment. We just simply aren't going to know until it's all in the past a bit, but until then, I don't think that using the system in a way it wasn't designed to be used is at all informative.

That being said, we're going to have to simply agree to disagree, I believe. I doubt that anything I've said has changed your mind, and I'm honestly finding this debate a bit tiring now.
 

The Macho King

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The more I look at things, the less I believe that neither of the seasons being discussed are good parallels. But I also don't believe that the comparison between two different seasons worked. Expected or not, there were, simply put, more outliers this season than last season. I don't see what whether they were expected or not has anything to do with it. With the suggestion that Panarin may be an outlier, that's complicated ever further.

I don't think that either of the seasons being discussed really work for the following reasons. 1988-89: As you yourself point out, there was a big gap between the outliers that year. That's not the case this year. Any one of those guys could get the Hart and it wouldn't feel like a travesty. 1992-93: Mario separated himself a little, but it wasn't a massive amount, and then after that, there was a much smoother gradient than I remembered when I suggested the season as a comparable one.

But another thing that hasn't been pointed out yet is that you're trying to use VsX across seasons where one of them used the default rule, and the other had to go into the "special rules." I just simply don't think it works, at least not without some history in the rear view mirror to show that it does. I'll concede this much: in 10 years, maybe we can look back and see that it works, but we can't do that now. You brought up the drop in save percentage. That's one factor that suggests a different environment. We just simply aren't going to know until it's all in the past a bit, but until then, I don't think that using the system in a way it wasn't designed to be used is at all informative.

That being said, we're going to have to simply agree to disagree, I believe. I doubt that anything I've said has changed your mind, and I'm honestly finding this debate a bit tiring now.
So just curious - as I mentioned in the other thread Kucherov's ratio to the median high scorer is 1.582 this season (144/91). Last season, McDavid's comes out to 1.636 (153/93.5).

That feels a bit better to me than VsX's benchmarking.
 

DitchMarner

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You had two players who put up seasons that were not expected while McDavid's was expected. After that, there are no more notable outliers than there were in the previous two seasons.

88/89 seems like the best comparable. Yzerman hits a level that he never reached before or gets close to again. Bernie Nichols has one of the all-time spike seasons in NHL history (with an assist from Wayne).

At this juncture, MacKinnon seems to have placed himself in the Trottier/Sakic/Yzerman tier. Kucherov is there among the Top 30/40 tier level player too.

We are seeing an unusual drop in overall sv % that isn't attributed to a rise in PP opportunities: NHL League Averages | Hockey-Reference.com

The question is whether this has opened the door to unexpected/outlier seasons, seasons that statistically are among the best non Big 4 seasons all-time, by non-generational level talent or was this a one off season like Yzerman's 88/89 that just happened twice in the same year.

The difference between 23/24 and 88/89 was that Yzerman was still significantly behind peak Mario and behind prime, but post-peak, Wayne while Kucherov and MacKinnon were in peak McDavid territory.

It think it basically is the modern 1989 (assuming next season and the one after that are more like last season and prior recent seasons).

MacKinnon is a good comparable to Yzerman at this point - not just in terms of peak season but also six season prime.

That leaves us with Nicholls and Kucherov. That comparison doesn't seem as natural. Kucherov has numerous seasons as a top ten scorer while Nicholls had two. He's also one of his generation's best playoff players. Historically he's a much better player.

That invokes the question: If a player like Bernie Nicholls can have such a strong outlier season, why can't a player of Kucherov's calibre? It looks like that is exactly what happened.

However, if scoring is similar at the very top next season, we will either have to upgrade Kucherov and/or MacKinnon... or if different players have such strong outliers, find an explanation as to why that sort of thing is happening more frequently and perhaps account for that in comparison methods.
 
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daver

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So just curious - as I mentioned in the other thread Kucherov's ratio to the median high scorer is 1.582 this season (144/91). Last season, McDavid's comes out to 1.636 (153/93.5).

That feels a bit better to me than VsX's benchmarking.

This would seem to eliminate the relevance of "outliers" that seems to be a big hang up of VsX. I think the HOH tries to overthink things sometimes.

It should be obvious that rating Kucherov's Art Ross based on his 4 point lead over 2nd place is as ridiculous as equating McDavid's 3rd place with 3rd place in almost every other season in NHL history.

And to a lesser, yet still significant, degree, that the 5% difference between Kucherov's PPG this year and McDavid's last year should make one question the 13% difference in VsX.

The only explanation is somehow recognizing that one player separating themselves in a season is more impressive than when more than one player does it. But I do not believe that is the case. I believe that it introduces the flaw in using only one piece of data to calculate.
 

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