HFNYR Top Rangers of All Time

[Cake or Death]

There's no shame in being #2 on a list of all-time greats for a franchise that has been around for 87 years. That said, it wasn't unanimous to put Boucher at #1...I didn't.

I disagree with Cake's opinion and his basing it, at least in part, on "Top 10" finishes of Boucher v. Messier in individual stat categories because he's comparing apples to oranges. Being Top 10 in scoring when there were only about 36 forwards in the league isn't the same as being Top 10 when there were over 310 forwards. If you're going to compare apples to apples, then a Top 10 finish for Boucher is akin to a Top 85 finish for Messier.

I appreciate the 2 Cups for Boucher but I don't think having 2 Cups v. having 1 Cup is that much of an advantage for Boucher, since the playoffs were so much shorter in Boucher's day. The way the playoffs were set up back then, Boucher wound up playing 17 games total in his Stanley Cup runs. Messier's Rangers played 23 in their one Cup run and even if those Rangers had swept every series, they would have had to play a minimum of 16 games.

In any event, they were two great Rangers and I have no qualms with the way the list played out even if it did differ from my personal ranking.

Now, if we continue to argue the merits of the players we already ranked, that might signal that it's time to tackle another position.

Haha. In fairness, you cannot dismiss and narrow down the amount of discussion we put into that to something like top ten finishes. I'll take the ribbing, but we were pretty exhaustive in how we looked at it, and as difficult as it is to do, we did a fairly good job of era comparison. We also pulled in a lot of quotes from people who'd actually seen these guys play. It wasn't merely a stat fest either, when you look at Walt and the credit he was given for his two-way game and contributions off the stat sheet.

It isn't easy, and I don't necessarily agree with all the placements either, but I don't feel like we did a disservice to the players or the team's history, and I think we did a pretty solid job.

"Often considered to be the Wayne Gretzky of his day because of his superior playmaking skills and understanding of the game, Frank Boucher had the gentility, class and manners rarely matched at such an elite level." Full article...

http://nyrangerslegends.blogspot.com/2006/05/frank-boucher.html

 

[SupersonicMonkey*]

What Boucher did for the Rangers organization dwarfs Messier's contributions.

Boucher won two Cups as a player and was a coach/manager for a third Cup.

Boucher had a hand in three of the Rangers four Cups.

Thanks for 94, Mess, but it's not even close.

 

[Chief]

What Boucher did for the Rangers organization dwarfs Messier's contributions.

Boucher won two Cups as a player and was a coach/manager for a third Cup.

Boucher had a hand in three of the Rangers four Cups.

Thanks for 94, Mess, but it's not even close.

That's great but the ranking was for the best Ranger center. What an individual might have done as a coach (or as a special assistant to the Rangers GM, for that matter) doesn't enter into the equation.

 

[Greg02]

As my voting/participation record clearly states, I felt that Boucher was a distinct step above Messier. While I understand the appeal of Messier, I definitely think that if you think it's a disgrace that he's no number one, then you don't know what you're talking about.

 

[JohnC]

This is the only place I can think of where this question should be asked...

I was too young to know this, the one season where Gretzky and Messier were both on the team, what were their positions on the C depth chart?

 

[rkhum]

Looking at this list just pisses me off.

Brad Park and Jean Ratelle, two of the greatest Rangers, virtually unrecognized by the organization today, traded in the same deal just for ESPO.

If they didn't make that dumb trade, they'd have been arguably the best and been properly honored.
What a shame the Rangers have made them mere footnotes instead of a proper retirement number.

 

[Crease]

This is the only place I can think of where this question should be asked...

I was too young to know this, the one season where Gretzky and Messier were both on the team, what were their positions on the C depth chart?

I believe the even-strength lines were predominantly Graves - Messier - Kovalev and Robitaille - Gretzky - Sundstrom. When Kovalev got hurt, I think Vorobiev had some games on Messier's right side. I don't recall one line being considered the #1 and the other considered the #2.

 

[JohnC]

I believe the even-strength lines were predominantly Graves - Messier - Kovalev and Robitaille - Gretzky - Sundstrom. When Kovalev got hurt, I think Vorobiev had some games on Messier's right side. I don't recall one line being considered the #1 and the other considered the #2.

I kinda figured this much. Thank you!

 

[bernmeister]

Looking at this list just pisses me off.

Brad Park and Jean Ratelle, two of the greatest Rangers, virtually unrecognized by the organization today, traded in the same deal just for ESPO.

If they didn't make that dumb trade, they'd have been arguably the best and been properly honored.
What a shame the Rangers have made them mere footnotes instead of a proper retirement number.

You should go into the threads where we did the voting and see my comments, particularly as to that trade.

 

[rkhum]

Where are the wings and goalies?

 

[Crease]

Where are the wings and goalies?

Haven't gotten to those projects yet. When the season starts (and traffic on the board picks up again), I'll start a thread gauging how much interest there is in a wingers project (either LW, RW, or combined).

 

[bernmeister]

Haven't gotten to those projects yet. When the season starts (and traffic on the board picks up again), I'll start a thread gauging how much interest there is in a wingers project (either LW, RW, or combined).

Your call, Crease.
What do you think about LW, RW, and are there enough guys who had enough of a career on BOTH wings that a specific "combined" designation is appropriate/useful.

 

[Crease]

Your call, Crease.
What do you think about LW, RW, and are there enough guys who had enough of a career on BOTH wings that a specific "combined" designation is appropriate/useful.

I'd like to hear what others think and make a decision based on that. My initial impression is "why separate LW and RW?" No one separates LD and RD.

Traditionally, there have been more high quality C's in the league than high quality LWs or RWs. So if we do decide to separate LWs and RWs, does it make sense to do 10 each? Will the discussion still be interesting when we get down to the 8th, 9th, 10th best LWer? If depth is an issue, we could alternatively do something like Top 15 Wingers.

 

[Chief]

I was initially of the mindset that we should separate the wingers but I'm not so sure. I think it's more indicative of the teams the organization had if you see a disparity in RW's v. LW's...but that's not really the purpose of the lists, now is it? I'm starting to think we should just have a Top 15 Wingers list.

 

[Crease]

I was initially of the mindset that we should separate the wingers but I'm not so sure. I think it's more indicative of the teams the organization had if you see a disparity in RW's v. LW's...but that's not really the purpose of the lists, now is it? I'm starting to think we should just have a Top 15 Wingers list.

It's an interesting thing to find out, but yes not the ultimate goal of the project. Doing a precursory brush through history, the Rangers are historically stronger at RW than LW. There are 9 Ranger RWs with three or more 25-goal seasons (including Bathgate, Gilbert, Cook, Hedberg, Jagr). There are only 4 Rangers LWs with the same accomplishment (Graves, Vickers, Hadfield, Maloney).

This marries well with the history of the NHL as a whole. The obvious follow up question is "why?". We should care about the answer because it will determine whether it makes sense to proceed with separate RW and LW lists. If centers are predominately left-handed, then their passing and vision favor the right side of the ice and that explains why RWs historically rack up more points than LWs. And if LWs were expected to play a more conservative role than RWs (the LW Lock was introduced in the 70s and prevalent in the 90s), then that explains why RWs racked up more points than LWs during that era.

Ultimately what I'm getting at is that if there exists a systematic unfairness for LWers, maybe it makes sense to separate the two.

On the other side of the coin, we don't want to overburden the participants. This is a volunteer project after all. My concern is that a Top 10 list for LWs is going to be very dull once we get past the first three or four guys. If we do a comprehensive Top 15 Wingers list, it doesn't mean these factors can't be incorporated in the analysis.

 

[CHGoalie27]

Looking at this list just pisses me off.

Brad Park and Jean Ratelle, two of the greatest Rangers, virtually unrecognized by the organization today, traded in the same deal just for ESPO.

If they didn't make that dumb trade, they'd have been arguably the best and been properly honored.
What a shame the Rangers have made them mere footnotes instead of a proper retirement number.

Here here~!

At least they didn't go for Petr Nedved

 

[Greg02]

Anyone else feel it's time to get back to work with this?

 

[Crease]

Anyone else feel it's time to get back to work with this?

Starting next weekend, I will have time to admin a wingers project. If there is enough interest, I'd love to go ahead with it.

 

[Ratelleitlikeitis]

Would love to...anything to take my mind off the present...

 

[mike14]

Would love to get back into. I'm going overseas in the new year so next week would be great

 

[Crease]

Post #1 is updated to include the results of the latest project: HFNYR Top Wingers of All Time.

 

[Greg02]

I like how we effectively voted on the top two lines in NYR history by doing the Centers and Wingers projects.

 

[Cake or Death]

Nice work guys

 

[Kwayry]

Not sure if this was posted before.
It's highlights from the 1933 game 5 final 1-0 OT Rangers win.
It includes a chat with Lester Patrick and the Cook brothers in the 2nd intermission.

 

[Cake or Death]

Not sure if this was posted before.
It's highlights from the 1933 game 5 final 1-0 OT Rangers win.
It includes a chat with Lester Patrick and the Cook brothers in the 2nd intermission.

Haha... that was awesome. There is literally a dude playing with a cast on his arm wtf... and they're wearing pads... barely. Crazy sport back in the day