HF Retro Game of the Year - 1996 - Super Mario 64

[Shareefruck]

Tetris is probably the most elegant design ever made in video game history: it's clean, everybody gets it, everyone can get good at it and being really good at it is very demanding and skill intensive. It scores very high on every conceivable metric imaginable outside of production values (although there is a VR Tetris now).

As far as the rest is concerned, I brought it up because it was a poll that was ran in 2014. If it's going to be a poll, not just a topic of discussion, I think we should strive for neutral metrics to evaluate games on. Of course we'll never "truly get there" and that's fine, but there needs to be somewhat of an effort towards it or else it's just all relative "well my best experience is this and yours is that... So where do we go from here?"

That is why I always try to distinguish what I prefer to what I think is the best.

I'm not arguing that objective reasons for why you feel a certain way about how valuable something is shouldn't be given, I just don't think that things like reach, popularity, impact, and influence should be considerations in this assessment.

I agree about the greatness of Tetris. Its simplicity is inspired/brilliant, its mechanics are deceptively deep and still interesting today, while also being perfectly designed in such a way that is capable of appealing to and being intuitive to anyone. I would actually take exception to the production values comment. Actual production values/fidelity shouldn't matter as much as timeless aesthetics, and the version in its heyday was aesthetically perfect (more-so than fancier future updates).

To me, none of its greatness has anything to do with it happening to have made a cultural impact and managing to successfully reach that audience/level of widespread appreciation (something that can be influenced by a million other factors that don't really matter or factor into how good a game is), deserved as it may be.

On a standard that ignores impact/cultural significance, I don't see why JRPGs as a whole, or Chrono Trigger as a whole (which scores really high on everything it's trying to do as well), couldn't be considered right up there.

I tend to think of "best" as a subjective impression/perception of an objective value. I agree that a lot of it is guesswork, but I think that subjectivity gets us closer to an accurate/meaningful answer than ignoring subjectivity or factoring in objectively quantifiable but irrelevant things like historical impact.

I don't know exactly what you mean by neutral metrics, but I would disagree with the idea of placing a penalty on a game focusing on qualities that are more subjectively appreciated and difficult to pinpoint/dependent on the person (like charm/personality). Which is what essentially happens when objectively quantifiable things are given more weight and treated like they're more relevant.

That said, if you're not saying anything like that (that's why I was fishing for clarification), and you're just saying that Chrono Trigger shouldn't be considered the best game because games like Tetris and Mario 3 are better (not more historically significant, just more incredible and rewarding efforts), I can agree with that, as opposed to my initial impression. There aren't that many games I have ahead of Chrono Trigger (certainly not enough that it would a joke to consider it for best all time), but Tetris and Super Mario Bros. 3 would be easily among them.

PS: This might be just me, but honestly, the thing that makes me think that things are good is the same thing that puts them in my favorites. I've never related to this need to separate the two ideas, personally. What I like about videogames are the things that I think make them good and have objective value that I can appreciate. The only thing I see that's separate from those two ideas (and create "guilty pleasures" or whatever) are compulsion and accessibility, and neither of those things make me "like" "prefer" or "favorite" something.

 

[Do Make Say Think]

That said, if you're not saying anything like that (that's why I was fishing for clarification), and you're just saying that Chrono Trigger shouldn't be considered the best game because games like Tetris and Mario 3 are better (not more historically significant, just more incredible and rewarding efforts), I can agree with that, as opposed to my initial impression. There aren't that many games I have ahead of Chrono Trigger (certainly not enough that it would a joke to consider it for best all time), but Tetris and Super Mario Bros. 3 would be easily among them.

Yeah that is what I was getting at. To me there's just no way I have CT before Tetris or Mario 3 in a "best of all time list" even though I really, really like CT.

As far as the whole JRPG thing, I've soured on the genre recently so take that for what it's worth. I used to be all JRPGs all the time but now I find JRPGs just don't respect my time

That was a nice discussion

 

[Commander Clueless]

Have you played and liked a JRPG before?

If so, then yes. It's probably the pinnacle of the genre (I'd have FFVI above it but it's REALLY close).

I've played and enjoyed exactly two that I can think of, and they both start with the word "Persona".

Unless Pokemon counts, because I've been playing that for quite some time...

I could never get into the Final Fantasy series, unfortunately, although I haven't given it much of an extended shot outside of XV (which I gather is very different from most).

Honestly, I don't see much of a point in feeling squeamish about emulating games from past console generations, especially if you're willing to spend the money on the latest iteration of it. It's 20+ years old, isn't readily available in its ideal form, doesn't involve real risk, and hell, most professional journalists in the industry don't even seem to have a problem admitting to using it and sometimes even broadcast with it. As long as it isn't being used as a method to completely bypass having to pay for games, I don't see any reason someone's conscience wouldn't be clear doing it, personally.

Don't know about the Vita version.

I think Nintendo disagrees with you.

Not to delve too deeply into the piracy debacle, but owning the game on one platform doesn't give me rights to do whatever I want with the intellectual property. Technically, I would still be in the wrong in that scenario.

That said, on the scale of ethical dilemmas, I'd say that rates pretty darn low. Certainly below the squeamish point.

The italicized section of my post was a (poor?) attempt at humour, as are most of my posts. Hence the gross overuse of the laughing emoticon.


I figure using what I have (DS, Vita) would be a better and easier way to go about it, but not for $70....

 

[Do Make Say Think]

I've played and enjoyed exactly two that I can think of, and they both start with the word "Persona".

Unless Pokemon counts, because I've been playing that for quite some time...

I could never get into the Final Fantasy series, unfortunately, although I haven't given it much of an extended shot outside of XV (which I gather is very different from most).

Pokémon is JRPG to the max and so is Persona so I'd say you should give it a go, Chrono Trigger is a big deal.

Pokémon has the "level up your Pokémon" thing going that sets it apart but, mechanically speaking, it's as old school JRPGs as they get.

 

[syz]

I figure using what I have (DS, Vita) would be a better and easier way to go about it, but not for $70....

I want to say it's available digitally on Vita for... probably a lot cheaper than $70, whatever it is. It's a port of the PS1 re-release which managed to carry over some unfortunate load times so it's not perfect. I don't think the DS version has the load times but I also don't think it's available digitally.

Though sadly even $70 is cheaper than how much the SNES version cost back in the day... was one of those $80 US carts.

 

[Commander Clueless]

Pokémon is JRPG to the max and so is Persona so I'd say you should give it a go, Chrono Trigger is a big deal.

Pokémon has the "level up your Pokémon" thing going that sets it apart but, mechanically speaking, it's as old school JRPGs as they get.

To be fair, Persona is a pretty new revelation to me and Pokemon was/is a heavy nostalgia thing as well. JRPGs in general haven't caught my eye very much, but I have heard the praises of Chrono Trigger.

I'll probably give it a go at some point. From what I've heard in this thread, it seems more up my alley than I expected.

 

[Shareefruck]

PS: It pains me that people have impressions about Final Fantasy based on XV.

Yeah that is what I was getting at. To me there's just no way I have CT before Tetris or Mario 3 in a "best of all time list" even though I really, really like CT.

As far as the whole JRPG thing, I've soured on the genre recently so take that for what it's worth. I used to be all JRPGs all the time but now I find JRPGs just don't respect my time

That was a nice discussion

For the record, another reason I took exception to the comment is that not every objectively arguable quality is equally valuable/relevant to a game, and how you think they should be weighted against each other for any given game is always going to be subjective. While Chrono Trigger isn't the best game to me, it doesn't have any glaring weaknesses that puts a ceiling on how good it can be, and I imagine that there's a justifiable subjective way to weight what it does exceptionally well that would result in it being the best game of all time for someone, objective considerations and all.

 

[Commander Clueless]

I want to say it's available digitally on Vita for... probably a lot cheaper than $70, whatever it is. It's a port of the PS1 re-release which managed to carry over some unfortunate load times so it's not perfect.

Though sadly even $70 is cheaper than how much the SNES version cost back in the day... was one of those $80 US carts.

I think it's around the $10 mark on Vita, which is why I'd be interested if it's better than the Steam release.

I might have been willing to pay the $70 if this was 20 years ago (and I owned a SNES, because I didn't do console gaming back then), but as it stands now I'm skeptical.

 

[syz]

I think it's around the $10 mark on Vita, which is why I'd be interested if it's better than the Steam release.

I might have been willing to pay the $70 if this was 20 years ago (and I owned a SNES, because I didn't do console gaming back then), but as it stands now I'm skeptical.

I never owned the SNES version either, though I imagine my parents paid an equal amount of money to Blockbuster in the long run. Probably should've just bought it.

 

[Shareefruck]

I've played and enjoyed exactly two that I can think of, and they both start with the word "Persona".

Unless Pokemon counts, because I've been playing that for quite some time...

I could never get into the Final Fantasy series, unfortunately, although I haven't given it much of an extended shot outside of XV (which I gather is very different from most).



I think Nintendo disagrees with you.

Not to delve too deeply into the piracy debacle, but owning the game on one platform doesn't give me rights to do whatever I want with the intellectual property. Technically, I would still be in the wrong in that scenario.

That said, on the scale of ethical dilemmas, I'd say that rates pretty darn low. Certainly below the squeamish point.

The italicized section of my post was a (poor?) attempt at humour, as are most of my posts. Hence the gross overuse of the laughing emoticon.


I figure using what I have (DS, Vita) would be a better and easier way to go about it, but not for $70....

Legally, yeah, but I would argue against that on a moral level, personally.

 

[Do Make Say Think]

For the record, another reason I took exception to the comment is that not every objectively arguable quality is equally valuable/relevant to a game, and how you think they should be weighted against each other for any given game is always going to subjective. While Chrono Trigger isn't the best game to me, it doesn't have any glaring weaknesses that puts a ceiling on how good it can be, and I imagine that there's a justifiable subjective way to weight what it does exceptionally well that would result in it being the best game of all time for someone, objective considerations and all.

The only things I'd hold against CT are it's length and it's difficulty. The game isn't very long in a genre that tends to espouse long games (which helps CT stand out actually) and it might be one of the easiest JRPGs ever. The rest is mostly great, especially the soundtrack.

But to get "best game of all time" you need a little something special I think. As much as I enjoyed Chrono Trigger, I don't think it has "it".

 

[Do Make Say Think]

I think it's around the $10 mark on Vita, which is why I'd be interested if it's better than the Steam release.

I might have been willing to pay the $70 if this was 20 years ago (and I owned a SNES, because I didn't do console gaming back then), but as it stands now I'm skeptical.

There's thing called ZSNES, it's pretty great.

 

[Commander Clueless]

Legally, yeah, but I would argue against that on a moral level, personally.

And I would agree with you as a matter of principle.

However, IP laws exist for a good reason and it's well within a company's rights to ignore our silly principle in this case.

 

[Shareefruck]

The only things I'd hold against CT are it's length and it's difficulty. The game isn't very long in a genre that tends to espouse long games (which helps CT stand out actually) and it might be one of the easiest JRPGs ever. The rest is mostly great, especially the soundtrack.

But to get "best game of all time" you need a little something special I think. As much as I enjoyed Chrono Trigger, I don't think it has "it".

You don't think Chrono Trigger has something special?

I can see/respect your criticisms (I consider its length and difficulty level to be strengths, personally), but I don't really see them as being clear-cut enough flaws to justify saying that "anyone who thinks it's the best hasn't played enough games".

 

[Do Make Say Think]

PS: It pains me that people have impressions about Final Fantasy based on XV.

As messy as FFXV was I actually legit enjoyed my time with it. I am consistently impressed when I remember that fact because thinking about that game is a disaster "man the plot is garbage, the pacing is all over the place, the characters are boring, combat isn't that deep etc...."

But then I didn't feel like that when playing it, I only get like that when I think about it.

This is a great example of the difference between interesting and fun actually. That's a very interesting topic.

You don't think Chrono Trigger has something special?

I can see/respect your criticisms (I consider its length and difficulty level to be strengths, personally), but I don't really see them as being clear-cut enough flaws to justify saying that "anyone who thinks it's the best hasn't played enough games".

I don't know how to really put it into words. I think Chrono Trigger is one of the crown gems of JRPGs and, in that respect, it is special. It's just that it would never even cross my mind when considering "what is the best game of all time" you know?

 

[Shareefruck]

And I would agree with you as a matter of principle.

However, IP laws exist for a good reason and it's well within a company's rights to ignore our silly principle in this case.

Sure. Wouldn't argue otherwise. And I wasn't trying to criticize you or anything, btw, just going off on a soapbox tangent.

As messy as FFXV was I actually legit enjoyed my time with it. I am consistently impressed when I remember that fact because thinking about that game is a disaster "man the plot is garbage, the pacing is all over the place, the characters are boring, combat isn't that deep etc...."

But then I didn't feel like that when playing it, I only get like that when I think about it.

This is a great example of the difference between interesting and fun actually. That's a very interesting topic.



I don't know how to really put it into words. I think Chrono Trigger is one of the crown gems of JRPGs and, in that respect, it is special. It's just that it would never even cross my mind when considering "what is the best game of all time" you know?

I couldn't stand it, personally, and just found it really cringey and obnoxious.

 

[Shareefruck]

I don't know how to really put it into words. I think Chrono Trigger is one of the crown gems of JRPGs and, in that respect, it is special. It's just that it would never even cross my mind when considering "what is the best game of all time" you know?

Yeah, but come'on, that's not a very good reason to doubt the exposure of anyone who thinks otherwise.

 

[Do Make Say Think]

Yeah, but come'on, that's not a very good reason to doubt the exposure of anyone who thinks otherwise.

I guess it was just another way of vocalizing my thought that "I wouldn't have CT anywhere near GOAT status, I wouldn't even consider it when making a list of considerations".

I lost my composure on the internet

 

[Shareefruck]

I guess it was just another way of vocalizing my thought that "I wouldn't have CT anywhere near GOAT status, I wouldn't even consider it when making a list of considerations".

Totally get that.

 

[TheDoldrums]

I used to be all JRPGs all the time but now I find JRPGs just don't respect my time

And yet you offer up BOTW as a possible GOAT pick.

 

[SniperHF]

Chrono Trigger was 2nd to Ocarina in the old voting.
It was pretty comfortably 2nd though.

 

[Shareefruck]

My pick for best video game of all time would be Super Metroid. Flawless masterpiece that perfectly holds up today, equally brilliant in mechanics/design as it is in atmospheric visual storytelling, beautiful spritework, sound design, and music that still looks/feels as striking as anything else released today, and the very simple narrative is wonderfully executed. Games have been trying to copy and improve on it for decades, and it's STILL trendy to do so today, but despite great efforts, nothing's really come close to putting it all together in a way that feels as on point. Still feels fresh and full of personality despite the market being bombarded with clones of it.

 

[Do Make Say Think]

And yet you offer up BOTW as a possible GOAT pick.

BotW is almost pure gameplay, there is next to no down time in that game.

 

[Do Make Say Think]

My pick for best video game of all time would be Super Metroid. Flawless masterpiece that perfectly holds up today, equally brilliant in mechanics/design as it is in atmospheric visual storytelling, and the very simple narrative is beautifully executed. Games have been trying to copy and improve on it for decades, and it's STILL trendy to do so, but despite great efforts, nothing's really come close to putting it all together in a way that feels as on point.

Good choice. That is one I can certainly agree with, Super Metroid is a landmark game and the gameplay is pure bliss.

 

[Commander Clueless]

Sure. Wouldn't argue otherwise. And I wasn't trying to criticize you or anything, btw, just going off on a soapbox tangent.

No offense taken. I love a good tangent.