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Hellebuyck is on his way to win his 3rd Vezina in 6 years

cneely said:
The substance of the argument is whether or not he's always played for excellent defensive teams that "prop up his stats".

He hasn't.
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I disagree. The substance is whether he’s played behind very good defenses during the course of his career racking up the accolades described in the thread title.

I’m not going to argue with people who choose to tell me what I meant because they have problems interpreting figures of speech. If someone argues in such bad faith, they aren’t worth my time.
 
Pavel Buchnevich said:
I disagree. The substance is whether he’s played behind very good defenses during the course of his career racking up the accolades described in the thread title.

I’m not going to argue with people who choose to tell me what I meant because they have problems interpreting figures of speech. If someone argues in such bad faith, they aren’t worth my time.
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Can you please explain how those two things are mutually exclusive?

A very good defense can be causally correlated to the quality of shots received.

You seem to be stripping the nuance of the discussion away rather than reframing or clarifying the nuance in any meaningful way. Are you here to just argue, or discuss until a point of mutual understanding?
 
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Pavel Buchnevich said:
I disagree. The substance is whether he’s played behind very good defenses during the course of his career racking up the accolades described in the thread title.

I’m not going to argue with people who choose to tell me what I meant because they have problems interpreting figures of speech. If someone argues in such bad faith, they aren’t worth my time.
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You literally said "he’s always played for a great defensive team that inflates his stats"

Did you mean to say something else? If so, you should probably make a retraction / correction. Pretty difficult to interpret it as anything other than what it is.
 
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Siignal said:
Can you please explain how those two things are mutually exclusive?

A very good defense can be causally correlated to the quality of shots received.

You seem to be stripping the nuance of the discussion away rather than reframing or clarifying the nuance in any meaningful way. Are you here to just argue, or discuss until a point of mutual understanding?
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Where did I say he’s a product of the defense?

His fanbase is literally admitting the team had a bad defense for a few years that he wasn’t putting up great stats.

So he had one career year in 19-20 where he defied a bad defense, and then the rest has went as the defense has. Almost like that’s mostly what goaltending is.

Yeah, some are better than others, but a large reason why Hellebuyck has been able to compile what’s likely to be two Vezina’s in a row is because the team has been built in a way that cushioned him.
 
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Pavel Buchnevich said:
Where did I say he’s a product of the defense?

His fanbase is literally admitting the team had a bad defense for a few years that he wasn’t putting up great stats.

So he had one career year in 19-20 where he defied a bad defense, and then the rest has went as the defense has. Almost like that’s mostly what goaltending is.

Yeah, some are better than others, but a large reason why Hellebuyck has been able to compile what’s likely to be two Vezina’s in a row is because the team has been built in a way that cushioned him.
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First line: Where did I say he’s a product of the defense?

Last line: because the team has been built in a way that cushioned him.

>what?
 
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Just for the sake of transparency, one advanced stats site has Hellebuyck not-top-1 in GSAx. He's 1st in the other public ones. In the one he isn't, he's 2 GSAx below the leader.
Pavel Buchnevich said:
Where did I say he’s a product of the defense?

His fanbase is literally admitting the team had a bad defense for a few years that he wasn’t putting up great stats.

So he had one career year in 19-20 where he defied a bad defense, and then the rest has went as the defense has. Almost like that’s mostly what goaltending is.

Yeah, some are better than others, but a large reason why Hellebuyck has been able to compile what’s likely to be two Vezina’s in a row is because the team has been built in a way that cushioned him.
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What in the world are you talking about? Are you just making shit up hoping that no one double checks what you're saying?

In the "few years" 2020-2023 where he didn't have a great defense around him, he finished top 4 in Vezina voting 3 of those seasons. He won in 2020, finished 4th in 2021 (where he also led the league in GSAx per moneypuck, second per evolving hockey), had a mediocre season in 2022 (save percentage just above average, which is mediocre for him), and finished 3rd in 2023.

This was while having the heaviest workload of any goalie in the NHL.

The 2020 season was a shining example of your claim about his being propped up by a great defense was absolute nonsense. The other two seasons where he finished top 5 in Vezina voting behind one of the worst defenses in the league just add on to how what you're claiming is baseless nonsense.

Yes, the Jets have a good defense now, which is probably part of the reason why Hellebuyck's save percentage compared to the league average rivals prime Hasek. If you put an elite goaltender behind a great defense, he's going to lap the field. When he was behind an atrocious defense in 2020 and 2021, he finished first in the league in GSAx and finished 1st and 4th in Vezina voting.
 
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Pavel Buchnevich said:
A product of a defense and having a team in front of you that gives you every chance to succeed is different.
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What odd sentence structure. Reminds me of this.

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Romang67 said:
Just for the sake of transparency, one advanced stats site has Hellebuyck not-top-1 in GSAx. He's 1st in the other public ones. In the one he isn't, he's 2 GSAx below the leader.

What in the world are you talking about? Are you just making shit up hoping that no one double checks what you're saying?

In the "few years" 2020-2023 where he didn't have a great defense around him, he finished top 4 in Vezina voting 3 of those seasons. He won in 2020, finished 4th in 2021 (where he also led the league in GSAx per moneypuck, second per evolving hockey), had a mediocre season in 2022 (save percentage just above average, which is mediocre for him), and finished 3rd in 2023.

This was while having the heaviest workload of any goalie in the NHL.

The 2020 season was a shining example of your claim about his being propped up by a great defense was absolute nonsense. The other two seasons where he finished top 5 in Vezina voting behind one of the worst defenses in the league just add on to how what you're claiming is baseless nonsense.

Yes, the Jets have a good defense now, which is probably part of the reason why Hellebuyck's save percentage compared to the league average rivals prime Hasek. If you put an elite goaltender behind a great defense, he's going to lap the field. When he was behind an atrocious defense in 2020 and 2021, he finished first in the league in GSAx and finished 1st and 4th in Vezina voting.
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You’re basically arguing against something I never said.

He’s a great goaltender. He’s usually one of the best. The best players in the league usually are that, and I said he was one of the best goaltenders of his era.

What I pushed back on is that he’s some historic goaltender in hockey history, which is the thrust of the thread idea.

I don’t think his record proves as such, even if he’s likely to have 3 Vezina’s after seasons end. Bob had two Vezina’s and despite the recent resurgence was not viewed as highly as his major accolades due to an examination of his full record.

I think Hellebuyck has a checkered history beyond the three Vezina’s when you examine the full record. The playoffs is a big component of it. Also, I would say that he’s played in a system the last few years that has been conducive to him having so much success. Is he a product of the defense? No, but I do think it’s kind of hard to divorce the two and make everything about his brilliance.

So in sum, I think there are a few points against him being this historic figure in hockey history. Great goaltender, a hall of famer, never said he’s a product of the defense. There are just some fair critiques there against the thrust of the thread idea that are worth voicing.
 
WATTAGE4451 said:
Its kinda ironic that this same argument would be used against hasek his entire buffalo career when he carried bad and mediocre sabres teams to the playoffs.. And when hasek actually won 2 stanley cups with detroit he wasnt even that good anymore and didnt have much to do with those cups being on loaded teams.
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Hasek carried a lousey Sabres to the finals hame 6.
14 play off wins
That's a career for Hellebuyck
 
DudeWhereIsMakar said:
He's going down as one of the top five if not ten goaltenders in NHL history.

He's also set to have a record that'll likely never be broken as the all-time wins leader in our franchises history.
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Lmfao hes not better than any of the big 4 from the 90's, nor Price, hell not even Quick who i wouldn't call top 10 all time
 
JKG33 said:
Lmfao hes not better than any of the big 4 from the 90's, nor Price, hell not even Quick who i wouldn't call top 10 all time
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Agreed. We might be in the weakest era for goaltending ever right now. It’s a toss up between now and the 80s, but I lean toward the 80s being better (relatively speaking), despite it being much higher scoring. The 80s at least still had goalies who were stealing series regularly, and one who pretty much led his team to a Cup and another finals appearance single-handedly (Roy); nobody is really doing anything like that now.

Now, you have guys like Hill, Kuemper, and a washed up Bobrovsky winning Cups.
 
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WATTAGE4451 said:
Its kinda ironic that this same argument would be used against hasek his entire buffalo career when he carried bad and mediocre sabres teams to the playoffs.. And when hasek actually won 2 stanley cups with detroit he wasnt even that good anymore and didnt have much to do with those cups being on loaded teams.
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DET Hasek was still better than current Hellebuyck come playoff time.
 
Pavel Buchnevich said:
It’s a figure of speech. I don’t need to deal with the grammar police. I see that’s what you want to do, so you know you’re fighting a losing battle when you can’t address the substance of the argument and need to try to parse one freaking word you didn’t like.
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Read the rest of my post, instead of getting offended after the first line. It covered what you needed.
 
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