GDT: Hawks @ Oilers 9pm ChSn 10/13/24

[SimpleJack]

i could quibble, but that looks broadly respectable, and i have no problem with just making a list and saying "these are the guys". it's just a different way of defining it than mine, and the number isn't the same as the number of teams, exactly as i predicted.

Its definitely debatable, i was kind of just messing around. By and large though its fairly accurate to say that there are ROUGHLY 32 1Ds in the NHL.

 

[statswatcher]

Its definitely debatable, i was kind of just messing around. By and large though its fairly accurate to say that there are ROUGHLY 32 1Ds in the NHL.

maybe so. maybe i'm being obtuse. i'd like to see numbers run on it. maybe i'll get around to doing the math i did on seth jones in the spring on your list of names there and see if i can disabuse myself of any bad notions.

 

[WarriorofTime]

Number 1 D is about a player's role on a specific team, not necessarily whether he's good at it or not. It's like how there are 32 "starting QBs" in the NFL at a given moment even if some of them stink. Jones has unquestionably been the #1 D of the Hawks since they acquired it.

 

[MHO]

Number 1 D is about a player's role on a specific team, not necessarily whether he's good at it or not. It's like how there are 32 "starting QBs" in the NFL at a given moment even if some of them stink. Jones has unquestionably been the #1 D of the Hawks since they acquired it.

I mean.... "sure"? What would you call a player that you would feel great about being the best defensemen on your team even if there is a better defensemen on your team? Like what would you call Pronger when you have Niedermayer? What would you call Suter when you have Weber? What would you call Savard and Lapointe when you have Robinson?

Is there a name for a defensemen good enough to be the best defensemen on a cup contender even if there's another guy on that roster who is better?

 

[hawksrule]

As usual, the ambiguity in debate comes from a need to define terms. There are literally 32 teams with a #1 defenseman, so if that’s the definition, that’s the definition. I personally think a better litmus test would be whether it is a player that most teams, if starting from scratch, would be happy to have as a number one defenseman. I don’t know what that number is.

 

[WarriorofTime]

I mean.... "sure"? What would you call a player that you would feel great about being the best defensemen on your team even if there is a better defensemen on your team? Like what would you call Pronger when you have Niedermayer? What would you call Suter when you have Weber? What would you call Savard and Lapointe when you have Robinson?

Is there a name for a defensemen good enough to be the best defensemen on a cup contender even if there's another guy on that roster who is better?

Elite, great, top 10/15/20, etc

 

[Clownish]

I mean.... "sure"? What would you call a player that you would feel great about being the best defensemen on your team even if there is a better defensemen on your team? Like what would you call Pronger when you have Niedermayer? What would you call Suter when you have Weber? What would you call Savard and Lapointe when you have Robinson?

Is there a name for a defensemen good enough to be the best defensemen on a cup contender even if there's another guy on that roster who is better?

Gustav Forsling.

 

[BHawk21]

I think it would be very interesting right now....to go and count the exact # of 1D's. I'm gonna give it a try:

McAvoy
Dahlin
Weegar
Slavin
Vlasic
Jones
Makar
Toews
Werenski
Heiskanen
Seider
Bouchard
Ekholm
Forsling
Doughty
Faber
Matheson
Josi
Hamilton
L. Hughes
Dobson
Fox
Sanderson
Letang
Karlsson
Dunn
Montour
Hedman
Reilly
Sergachev
Q. Hughes
Theodore
Hanafin
Carlson
Morrissey

HM: Power, Andersson, Faulk, Fowler, Sanheim

That's 35. 3 more than there are teams. So there we have it. Its official. Theory debunked.

Vlasic isnt on this level yet.

 

[GIADF]

Vlasic isnt on this level yet.

Yeah, I think he needs to show a little more offense before he can be in the conversation.

Which I think he is capable of he just needs to be given more of a leash and PP time.

 

[Chuck Testa]

What's a 1D?

The Usos finishing move.

Duhhhhhhhhhhh.

 

[Toews2Bickell]

one question you could ask when it comes to if you have a true 1d on your roster is do you have a player that can win a norris, if you realistically don't then you don't have a true 1d on your roster...and then for forwards how many do you have that can win a rocket, art ross, selke etc

 

[GIADF]

one question you could ask when it comes to if you have a true 1d on your roster is do you have a player that can win a norris, if you realistically don't then you don't have a true 1d on your roster...and then for forwards how many do you have that can win a rocket, art ross, selke etc

That just wouldn't make any sense to gauge your 1D. In a typical year there are like 3 to maybe 5 guys at the absolute most who have a chance to win a Norris.

 

[x Tame Impala]

As usual, the ambiguity in debate comes from a need to define terms. There are literally 32 teams with a #1 defenseman, so if that’s the definition, that’s the definition. I personally think a better litmus test would be whether it is a player that most teams, if starting from scratch, would be happy to have as a number one defenseman. I don’t know what that number is.

“Franchise” Defenseman sounds nice to me. A guy who can be relied on in all three zones to be an effective cornerstone for your team long term.

It’s ambiguous like you said. Most of these terms are. “Is Bedard GENERATIONAL?” for example.

 

[Toews2Bickell]

That just wouldn't make any sense to gauge your 1D. In a typical year there are like 3 to maybe 5 guys at the absolute most who have a chance to win a Norris.

maybe there just aren't that many true 1s, much like QBs having a chance in MVP race

 

[GIADF]

maybe there just aren't that many true 1s, much like QBs having a chance in MVP race

I'm a literal person so I see 32 teams and thus there are literally 32 defenseman who are the 1D on their team.

Obviously, some will be better and worse than others and thus you could create all sorts of rankings and tiers from there. But to me there are still 32 1D across the league by definition.

 

[Toews2Bickell]

I'm a literal person so I see 32 teams and thus there are literally 32 defenseman who are the 1D on their team.

Obviously, some will be better and worse than others and thus you could create all sorts of rankings and tiers from there. But to me there are still 32 1D across the league by definition.

I think on average the question is directionally correct. If you have zero defensemen on your roster that can contend for a Norris now or in the future (receive any votes) then you probably don't have a franchise defenseman on your team, which I think is what most people are referring to when they say 1D, same goes for franchise forward and the respective awards on that side

 

[Kevin Musto]

I'm a literal person so I see 32 teams and thus there are literally 32 defenseman who are the 1D on their team.

Obviously, some will be better and worse than others and thus you could create all sorts of rankings and tiers from there. But to me there are still 32 1D across the league by definition.

If a team's best defenseman is Cody Ceci, he does not become a 1D by default

 

[GIADF]

If a team's best defenseman is Cody Ceci, he does not become a 1D by default

If he is the best defenseman they have, and at the top of the depth chart, then he is literally a 1D... just a really shitty one. Not all 1D are going to be equal.

 

[ChiHawks10]

one question you could ask when it comes to if you have a true 1d on your roster is do you have a player that can win a norris, if you realistically don't then you don't have a true 1d on your roster...and then for forwards how many do you have that can win a rocket, art ross, selke etc

Yeah... no. This is a terrible gauge for a 1D. There are like 5 guys in the NHL at any given time that are regularly capable of a Norris. You're talking the elite of the elite.

 

[Kevin Musto]

If he is the best defenseman they have, and at the top of the depth chart, then he is literally a 1D... just a really shitty one. Not all 1D are going to be equal.

That's not a 1D.

Just a guy that gets top line deployment.

 

[hawksrule]

I don’t believe agreeing on a definition is necessary, as long as people are clear what they themselves mean when they use the term.

 

[Hawkaholic]

A#1 D needs to be either elite offensively and OK defensively or OK offensively, but elite on D. Imo. A guy who can either carry an offense, while being able to play crucial mins defensively, or completely shut down the other team on D, while providing solid offense.

I personally haven't seen Jones be either of those things since he has been here. Too many defensive mistakes, and not nearly enough offensive for someone who hasn't been a shutdown guy.

 

[ChiHawks10]

I think on average the question is directionally correct. If you have zero defensemen on your roster that can contend for a Norris now or in the future (receive any votes) then you probably don't have a franchise defenseman on your team, which I think is what most people are referring to when they say 1D, same goes for franchise forward and the respective awards on that side

The two things in this sentence are polar opposites. A guy "contending" for a Norris is one of the elite in the league, and likely finishing top 1-5 in voting. Just receiving votes... just about every 1D in the league will get votes, and the list changes quite a bit year-to-year. As an example... 15 D received votes last year, 19 the year before, and 18 the year before that. Also... the Norris is not really a "best defenseman" trophy at this point. It's a "D who puts up the most points" trophy most years.

 

[statswatcher]

just about every 1D in the league will get votes

well here you make it sound like a decent litmus test

 

[ChiHawks10]

well here you make it sound like a decent litmus test

It's not a bad test, actually. Just receiving votes. The problem with using it... you might have 15 guys get votes one year, then only 5 of those same guys get votes the next, and 10-12 different D end up with the rest of the votes the next year. It's not perfect, but it's probably close to determining the number. I'm pretty comfortable saying there's around 25 true 1D in the league at any given moment. Just look at the lists from the last two years. Josi was 2nd in 23-24. Not a single vote the year before. Karlsson won it in 23. Not a single vote last year. There's just too much variance year-to-year to actually use it as a solid test.

2023-2024 Norris Votes

Place	Player	Age	Tm	Pos	Votes	Vote%	1st	2nd	3rd	4th	5th	G	A	PTS	+/-	OPS	DPS	GPS	PS
1	Quinn Hughes	24	VAN	D	1864	96.08	172	17	5	0	0	17	75	92	38	7.9	6.5	0.0	14.4
2	Roman Josi	33	NSH	D	1207	62.22	12	108	61	8	2	23	62	85	12	8.0	4.8	0.0	12.8
3	Cale Makar	25	COL	D	893	46.03	9	61	59	21	18	21	69	90	15	8.2	4.1	0.0	12.3
4	Adam Fox	25	NYR	D	229	11.80	1	1	14	38	28	17	56	73	21	6.6	5.3	0.0	11.9
5	Evan Bouchard	24	EDM	D	212	10.93	0	1	19	29	23	18	64	82	34	7.3	5.8	0.0	13.1
6	Victor Hedman	33	TBL	D	201	10.36	0	4	6	42	17	13	63	76	18	6.2	5.4	0.0	11.6
7	Josh Morrissey	28	WPG	D	166	8.56	0	0	19	16	23	10	59	69	34	5.2	6.3	0.0	11.5
8	Noah Dobson	24	NYI	D	95	4.90	0	0	2	18	31	10	60	70	12	5.4	4.5	0.0	9.9
9	Gustav Forsling	27	FLA	D	85	4.38	0	1	6	10	18	10	29	39	56	2.6	8.0	0.0	10.6
10	Miro Heiskanen	24	DAL	D	43	2.22	0	1	3	3	12	9	45	54	8	3.9	3.7	0.0	7.7
11	Drew Doughty	34	LAK	D	18	0.93	0	0	0	4	6	15	35	50	15	3.7	6.1	0.0	9.8
12	Mattias Ekholm	33	EDM	D	15	0.77	0	0	0	2	9	11	34	45	44	3.3	6.2	0.0	9.5
13	Charlie McAvoy	26	BOS	D	7	0.36	0	0	0	2	1	12	35	47	4	3.5	4.1	0.0	7.6
14	Jaccob Slavin	29	CAR	D	6	0.31	0	0	0	1	3	6	31	37	21	2.0	5.6	0.0	7.6
15	Rasmus Dahlin	23	BUF	D	3	0.15	0	0	0	0	3	20	39	59	-3	5.3	4.1	0.0	9.

2022-2023 Norris Votes

Place	Player	Age	Tm	Pos	Votes	Vote%	1st	2nd	3rd	4th	5th	G	A	PTS	+/-	OPS	DPS	GPS	PS
1	Erik Karlsson	32	SJS	D	1585	80.87	123	33	16	12	8	25	76	101	-26	9.4	3.0	0.0	12.4
2	Adam Fox	24	NYR	D	1125	57.40	41	72	28	20	11	12	60	72	28	5.5	6.4	0.0	11.9
3	Cale Makar	24	COL	D	553	28.21	12	26	29	26	28	17	49	66	16	6.0	4.5	0.0	10.5
4	Hampus Lindholm	29	BOS	D	483	24.64	12	14	31	30	20	10	43	53	49	3.7	7.2	0.0	10.9
5	Josh Morrissey	27	WPG	D	337	17.19	3	16	23	21	17	16	60	76	2	6.2	5.0	0.0	11.3
6	Dougie Hamilton	29	NJD	D	270	13.78	3	11	15	21	25	22	52	74	23	7.1	5.0	0.0	12.1
7	Miro Heiskanen	23	DAL	D	269	13.72	1	13	15	25	18	11	62	73	12	5.7	5.3	0.0	11.1
8	Rasmus Dahlin	22	BUF	D	262	13.37	0	6	23	25	30	15	58	73	12	6.1	4.2	0.0	10.2
9	Quinn Hughes	23	VAN	D	101	5.15	1	2	10	5	12	7	69	76	15	5.3	4.8	0.0	10.2
10	Brent Burns	37	CAR	D/RW	41	2.09	0	2	2	3	8	18	43	61	19	5.4	6.0	0.0	11.4
11	Vince Dunn	26	SEA	D	31	1.58	0	0	2	4	9	14	50	64	28	5.2	5.2	0.0	10.4
12	Brandon Montour	28	FLA	D	9	0.46	0	1	0	0	2	16	57	73	9	6.2	3.7	0.0	9.9
13	Jared Spurgeon	33	MIN	D	9	0.46	0	0	0	2	3	11	23	34	32	2.3	6.6	0.0	8.9
14	Devon Toews	28	COL	D	7	0.36	0	0	1	0	2	7	43	50	39	3.0	7.0	0.0	10.0
15	Victor Hedman	32	TBL	D	5	0.26	0	0	1	0	0	9	40	49	10	3.3	4.3	0.0	7.6
16	Mikhail Sergachev	24	TBL	D	4	0.20	0	0	0	1	1	10	54	64	13	4.7	4.7	0.0	9.3
17	Jaccob Slavin	28	CAR	D	3	0.15	0	0	0	1	0	7	20	27	18	1.3	5.4	0.0	6.7
18	Drew Doughty	33	LAK	D	1	0.05	0	0	0	0	1	9	43	52	12	3.2	5.3	0.0	8.5
18	Charlie McAvoy	25	BOS	D	1	0.05	0	0	0	0	1	7	45	52	29	3.8	5.0	0.0