Has Colorado’s core underachieved?.

[JFedol]

Wishful thinking but I've always had the opinion that If Rantanen had somehow manage to be able to convert to C full time back in his early years (Around 2017-2018ish, he did also look really good during the 2022 season when Mack got injured). Maybe the Avs don't go after Kadri and their depth would be fully balanced out instead of having to ride with JT f***ing Compher.

A hypothetical MacKinnon-Rantanen 1-2 punch followed by a borderline generational D-Man in Makar on the back end, would make it 10x easier to maybe win more playoff games in greater fashions instead of being a 1-line at certain times.

 

[LightningStorm]

I just noticed something crazy about the Avalanche in the 3 games they've been eliminated in following their 2022 cup win. In all 3 games, a former Av has played a huge role in eliminating them.

2023 R1, Game 7 vs Seattle: They lose to the Kraken 2-1, with Philipp Grubauer stopping 33 of 34 shots.

2024 R2, Game 6 vs Dallas: They lose to the Stars 2-1 after Matt Duchene's OT goal.

Most ominously, who scored both of the Avs lone goals in those two games? MIKKO RANTANEN. And then in 2025 he eliminates the Avs in the most dramatic fashion in Dallas.

 

[daver]

Given the current playoff format, sometimes Rounds 1 and 2 are harder to win than Round 3 so remarking that they have onkly gotten past the 2nd round once is a bit misleading.

Would not have been surprised if they won again or got to the SCF at least but not that surprised they didn't.

 

[avsfan9]

Yah. Exactly my point. Those old cups don’t hold much weight today do they? Look at my oilers. 5 cup, last one in 90 six years before the avs first one. Doesn’t mean much to me and certainly not worth arguing over or using as some “gotcha” to prove a point online.

Winning the cup is everything for the players, it’s their accomplishment and no one can take that away from them ever. But as a fan it’s doesn’t mean anything. It’s doesn’t make you a better fan.

So your team wins a cup in 2022, it’s now 2052. Your team has had a run of bad luck. Getting knocked of the playoffs early for a years and then rebuilds and it doesn’t go smoothly. And it’s been a few years since you made the playoffs. Are you, as a fan still whipping and high diving that cup win in 2022 and using it as a point in arguments with other fans about why your team doesn’t suck?

I know for me in my 40s I’m not using the 90 cup win for the oilers for anything other than a historic fact. So you won it. Cool. Whats happening now?

It does mean something, I’ve seen my team win 3 cups and im 45. Just ask Toronto maple leaf fans if they’d take that. I’m pretty sure they all do. Avs still have a shot at a couple of more cups. If they win game 7 this year they likely have a great shot this season. Thems the breaks.

 

[The Gr8 Dane]

In terms of cups no , in terms of actual round wins year to year yes

 

[WarriorofTime]

Given the current playoff format, sometimes Rounds 1 and 2 are harder to win than Round 3 so remarking that they have onkly gotten past the 2nd round once is a bit misleading.

Would not have been surprised if they won again or got to the SCF at least but not that surprised they didn't.

This post is misleading. Kraken lost in the 2nd round. Dallas lost in the WCF last year. TBD on this year.

And let's not forget a tougher first round opponent is the "penalty" you get for finishing 3rd in the division. That being said, I do miss the 1-8 conference format (Dallas would have been 3rd, Colorado 5th this year).

 

[Fatass]

The players haven’t underachieved. The management has.

 

[Voight]

Feels like the same as their first core w/ Sakic, Roy and Foppa. They won 2 Cups but should have won at least one more. Avs prioritize an up tempo offensive style, always have. I don't think its as easy to win this way versus heavier defense first teams.

That first core though had to compete with juggernauts in Detroit and Dallas.

 

[blankall]

Lemieux and Jagr played 7 seasons together and won 2 cups and made 2 more conference finals as a small market team in a pre-cap era. Colorado has made it out of the second round just once so far.

Their coach has to go, you can't stick with a guy who can't figure out DeBoer when the Stars play in your division.

Just a small market team that, in addition to Lemieux and Jagr, had Kevin Stevens, Ron Francis, Rick Tocchet, Larry Murphy, Joe Mullen, Mark Recchi, Bryan Trottier, Paul Coffey...

NHL Team Payrolls, 1994 to 2004 - San Jose Sharks, NY Rangers, All Teams, NHL Team Payrolls

The Pens had the highest salary in the league many years in the 90s and they rolled out stacked teams.

 

[bambamcam4ever]

Just a small market team that, in addition to Lemieux and Jagr, had Kevin Stevens, Ron Francis, Rick Tocchet, Larry Murphy, Joe Mullen, Mark Recchi, Bryan Trottier, Paul Coffey...

NHL Team Payrolls, 1994 to 2004 - San Jose Sharks, NY Rangers, All Teams, NHL Team Payrolls

The Pens had the highest salary in the league many years in the 90s and they rolled out stacked teams.

I have to question that source given that using the Fedorov offer sheet as reference, the Red Wings apparently spent their entire payroll on him in 97-98.

 

[blankall]

I have to question that source given that using the Fedorov offer sheet as reference, the Red Wings apparently spent their entire payroll on him in 97-98.

Fair enough. It's difficult to find good data. That being said, the Pens were not a "small market team" in the early to mid 90s. They were a popular team, with the best player in the world playing for them, and their team was laden with expensive vets and other superstars, most of whom they acquired in the 1-2 years before those two cups.

 

[BKarchitect]

As an Avs fan - you can't discount the value of a Cup, even a single one - given how hard it is to win.

But yes, as just a general feeling - I think the number of very early round flame-outs - most of which have been so close that they've balanced on the edge of the knife - has given a general perception that the number of actual runs, even ones that don't end in a Cup, that the core has gone on - has been disappointing.

History probably won't remember the difference between these first-round heartbreakers and turning a few of those into conference finals runs - but here in this moment? You certainly feel it as a fan.

 

[IWantSakicAsMyGM]

As an Avs fan - you can't discount the value of a Cup, even a single one - given how hard it is to win.

But yes, as just a general feeling - I think the number of very early round flame-outs - most of which have been so close that they've balanced on the edge of the knife - has given a general perception that the number of actual runs, even ones that don't end in a Cup, that the core has gone on - has been disappointing.

History probably won't remember the difference between these first-round heartbreakers and turning a few of those into conference finals runs - but here in this moment? You certainly feel it as a fan.

The fact that this core hasn't gone on more long run is evidence of just how difficult it is. They won the Cup in dominating fashion, then lost Landeskog for 3 years. The next two playoff runs, they lost Nuke before a pivotal game. How many other injuries have they had over the last few years? Without those high end "support" players, everything falls apart.

 

[BKarchitect]

The fact that this core hasn't gone on more long run is evidence of just how difficult it is. They won the Cup in dominating fashion, then lost Landeskog for 3 years. The next two playoff runs, they lost Nuke before a pivotal game. How many other injuries have they had over the last few years? Without those high end "support" players, everything falls apart.

Sure, but bad stuff happens to everybody. If we had taken Game 7 against Dallas, I'm sure their fans would be like "well, we probably win that series if Heiskinen and Robbo are healthy, that's bad luck".

At some point you have to find a way.

 

[Junohockeyfan]

The fact that this core hasn't gone on more long run is evidence of just how difficult it is. They won the Cup in dominating fashion, then lost Landeskog for 3 years. The next two playoff runs, they lost Nuke before a pivotal game. How many other injuries have they had over the last few years? Without those high end "support" players, everything falls apart.

Dallas was missing Heiskenan and Robertson, yet were able to get past the mighty Avs!

 

[shadow1]

Always forget they lost to the Kracken somehow

That was the year after they won the Cup, this was their roster:

Lehkonen-MacKinnon-Rantanen​

Rodrigues-Compher-Nichushkin(suspended)​

Cogliano-Eller-O'Connor​

Nieto-Newhook-Malgin​

​

Toews-Makar​

Girard-Manson​

Byram-E. Johnson​

​

Georgiev​

Even if they beat Seattle, they had zero chance of going all the way. Their GM did not give them a chance to repeat that season.

 

[WarriorofTime]

Colorado was stacked on the wing in 2021-22.

*Then Landeskog missed three years
*Nichushkin's availability became questionable due to his substance abuse addiction
*And for some reason, even with the first two, they decided they should downgrade wing from Rantanen to Necas.

Their core went from MacKinnon, Rantanen, Landeskog, Nichushkin, Kadri, Makar, Toews to MacKinnon, Necas, Makar and Toews.

Makes me laugh when people say Wingers just happen to be on teams that win Cups but the Center/Defensemen actually "win" the Cups. There's no real basis for it but people just kinda say it. So they see MacKinnon and Makar and assume that means Colorado will win the Cup every year but the team around them weakened considerably.

They pretty quickly became a 1-line team.

 

[IWantSakicAsMyGM]

Sure, but bad stuff happens to everybody. If we had taken Game 7 against Dallas, I'm sure their fans would be like "well, we probably win that series if Heiskinen and Robbo are healthy, that's bad luck".

At some point you have to find a way.

I get that injuries happen, but losing the team captain and one of the best LWs in the game for 3 seasons because he got cut on the leg with a skate in a freak accident a year before and it didn't heal properly ultimately leading to him needing a surgery that no one has ever come back from before is a totally different level of bad luck than missing a guy for one series because he got a little banged up in the final game of the regular season.

And when it comes to judging how the core has performed, having key parts of the core not playing for multiple years/playoff runs is something that I think should be considered. And I'm not sure how realistic it is to expect them to still "find a way" when the pieces they found that got the job done stopped being available for various reasons.