Has Bergevin made us a better team so far this summer? Part 3

[Kriss E]

Well it depends on what you think the difference is between Shaw and the player that will replace him. You don't just lose Shaw's 47 points. Someone else will play those minutes... the question is more who will play those minutes... and what will they do with them?

It's a bit risky, but Bergevin is banking on other players being able to step up and fill those minutes. Personally I like the move I think it will be the right move because I think guys like Kotkienemi, Suzuki and Poehling will benefit from those minutes... and ultimately those are the guys that will need to carry this team to the next level anyway.

Right, and given Shaw's style, it's not just points you lose.
Max Domi called Shaw the most underrated player on the team when he went on TLMP last year because of his ''character'' and ''leadership''.

 

[ECWHSWI]

Well it depends on what you think the difference is between Shaw and the player that will replace him. You don't just lose Shaw's 47 points. Someone else will play those minutes... the question is more who will play those minutes... and what will they do with them?

It's a bit risky, but Bergevin is banking on other players being able to step up and fill those minutes. Personally I like the move I think it will be the right move because I think guys like Kotkienemi, Suzuki and Poehling will benefit from those minutes... and ultimately those are the guys that will need to carry this team to the next level anyway.

if these guys are good enough, chances are they're good enough even with Shaw on the team.

 

[ZUKI]

anyone with very basic hockey knowledge understand you're not improving your team by trading your best winger for picks, wether the best winger had 10, 15, 20 goals is irrelevant, he's the best none the less.

and here's your reply...

ok , so now Shaw was our best winger ...

Last season, a lot of you were in a panic mode because Bergevin has traded his 2 best scorers . Who will score their goals ????
This season , it's who will put the points of Shaw ???
And man , stop with your " anyone with very basic hockey knowledge understand that..." stuff; Are you enough naive to think that it will give more power to you own opinion ?

 

[ECWHSWI]

ok , so now Shaw was our best winger ...

Last season, a lot of you were in a panic mode because Bergevin has traded his 2 best scorers . Who will score their goals ????
This season , it's who will put the points of Shaw ???
And man , stop with your " anyone with very basic hockey knowledge understand that..." stuff; Are you enough naive to think that it will give more power to you own opinion ?

you mean last season as the season we did not make the PO ?? or maybe it's another last season you're speaking of ??


considering all you post is "people say this" and "people say that", pretty much everyone here has a more powerful opinion that you. There's no merit to it.

 

[WinterLion]

Right, and given Shaw's style, it's not just points you lose.
Max Domi called Shaw the most underrated player on the team when he went on TLMP last year because of his ''character'' and ''leadership''.

Sure, so we need other players to step up with those things too. How much better do you think Shaw is than the other players we have? That is the question. If you think the answer is that there is a huge gap... of I can see why you are upset. But personally I think we have guys to fill in those minutes who can grow into an important role...

I mean honestly if losing Shaw is such a big deal we are in trouble no matter which way you slice. The only way this team gets substantially better is when the younger players grow into bigger roles.

 

[HabsWhiteKnightLOL]

It sucks losing Shaw for nothing but if we put anybody at his place for the entire season with all the ice team he had , im pretty sure that player will be at the same pace as Shaw or better.

Shaw was a third liner. It was a bad trade when it happened , he was 1 headshot away to be done. Im actually surprised he came this strong last season.

 

[Kriss E]

Sure, so we need other players to step up with those things too. How much better do you think Shaw is than the other players we have? That is the question. If you think the answer is that there is a huge gap... of I can see why you are upset. But personally I think we have guys to fill in those minutes who can grow into an important role...

I mean honestly if losing Shaw is such a big deal we are in trouble no matter which way you slice. The only way this team gets substantially better is when the younger players grow into bigger roles.

[MOD]

I said trading Shaw (19g 47pts in 63gp) without replacing him when we are trying to make the POs does not make sense.
I'm not upset hes gone, I never cared for Shaw, glad we moved him for picks.
I'm saying this move does not put us in a better position to make the POs, that's all there is to it.

Could others step up? Sure...they could, but will they? No idea. Do we expect it? I dont. I'm not expecting much from junior players making the jump to pro level in their rookie year.

That's all there is to it. I'm not upset we moved Shaw. Just making a point that it ain't making us better next season.

 

[26Mats]

I'm happy he moved on from him as well.
My point is simply for a man trying to push for the POs, trading Shaw away for picks doesnt make sense.

I like the trade but still would like to know from Bergevin why he did it. My best guess is he didn't want to risk Shaw getting injured, declining, and beieng on the cap for 4 million when we have all the young guys to sign. It also helps that Timmins was hot with 2nd to 4th round picks in the previous 3 drafts (Mete, Brook, Romanov, etc..)

 

[Doc McKenna]

I dont understand the irrational understanding of some posters.

I said trading Shaw (19g 47pts in 63gp) without replacing him when we are trying to make the POs does not make sense.
I'm not upset hes gone, I never cared for Shaw, glad we moved him for picks.
I'm saying this move does not put us in a better position to make the POs, that's all there is to it.

Could others step up? Sure...they could, but will they? No idea. Do we expect it? I dont. I'm not expecting much from junior players making the jump to pro level in their rookie year.

That's all there is to it. I'm not upset we moved Shaw. Just making a point that it ain't making us better next season.

Maybe we are trying to not make the playoffs. Big home grown talent available at the end of the year. I agree with the head scratcher. We JUST got show and he is broomed out the door? I mean there was a number of reasons I didn't like him, many non hockey related, but it's fishy that he was traded.

 

[unknownbrother]

Florida, NJD, Buffalo and the NYR have all improved significantly whereas the Habs stayed the same or took a step back.

I admire how the Rangers told their fans they were rebuilding and did it very smartly and quickly.
Habs are not a playoff team. Period.

The NYR rebuild is not done and the Habs are a better team than they are. They got some lottery luck, a dman who was pretty publicly only interested in NYC, and splashed the cash on Panarin (a move way too early into their rebuild but most likely to get bums in seats and make casuals happy).

Outside of those three players the Habs "should" have a better season than the Rangers.

I hate the narrative that the Rangers have had a great rebuild. They seem to have started to rush a couple of things and their depth stinks.

 

[Milhouse40]

The NYR rebuild is not done and the Habs are a better team than they are. They got some lottery luck, a dman who was pretty publicly only interested in NYC, and splashed the cash on Panarin (a move way too early into their rebuild but most likely to get bums in seats and make casuals happy).

Outside of those three players the Habs "should" have a better season than the Rangers.

I hate the narrative that the Rangers have had a great rebuild. They seem to have started to rush a couple of things and their depth stinks.

Their rebuild is not done and i don't expect them to make the PO this year.
They will most likely trade Kreider and Namestknikov before TDL for loading up draft pick or young prospects.

But they didn't sign guys like Panarin and Trouba for one year.
Next year this team's rebuild will be over.

Habs may have a best season this year…...but if we look at 2 years from now, they should be a force.
Not sure i can say the same about the Habs who seems to in a 3rd years of reset, instead of their 3rd of rebuild like the NYR.

 

[DAChampion]

The NYR rebuild is not done and the Habs are a better team than they are. They got some lottery luck, a dman who was pretty publicly only interested in NYC, and splashed the cash on Panarin (a move way too early into their rebuild but most likely to get bums in seats and make casuals happy).

Outside of those three players the Habs "should" have a better season than the Rangers.

I hate the narrative that the Rangers have had a great rebuild. They seem to have started to rush a couple of things and their depth stinks.

If the Habs are a better team than the Rangers, then the Rangers are having a better rebuild.

 

[Kent Nilsson]

The NYR rebuild is not done and the Habs are a better team than they are. They got some lottery luck, a dman who was pretty publicly only interested in NYC, and splashed the cash on Panarin (a move way too early into their rebuild but most likely to get bums in seats and make casuals happy).

Outside of those three players the Habs "should" have a better season than the Rangers.

I hate the narrative that the Rangers have had a great rebuild. They seem to have started to rush a couple of things and their depth stinks.

The Rangers dont rely on declining players like we do, but I agree we might finish higher in the standings this year so we get a lower draft pick, just the way we like it.

 

[Rapala]

So ax him now? what's the point with that now?

The point is ownership and our president need to show all players that the organization will be run on meritorious standards. What can you really ask of your players when you don't ask it of your management group.? If Bob Gainey said he was now ready and able to focus on hockey I'd take him back in a heartbeat. He'd be the one man I would trust to bring some honor back to the franchise.

 

[WinterLion]

I dont understand the irrational understanding of some posters.

I said trading Shaw (19g 47pts in 63gp) without replacing him when we are trying to make the POs does not make sense.
I'm not upset hes gone, I never cared for Shaw, glad we moved him for picks.
I'm saying this move does not put us in a better position to make the POs, that's all there is to it.

Could others step up? Sure...they could, but will they? No idea. Do we expect it? I dont. I'm not expecting much from junior players making the jump to pro level in their rookie year.

That's all there is to it. I'm not upset we moved Shaw. Just making a point that it ain't making us better next season.

It's pretty simple really. You are talking about losing Shaw as if it's a big deal. But it's only as big as the difference between him and the players taking up his ice-time. Some of those players may be coming out of junior, but it could also mean that some vets get more ice time especially on the power play where Shaw did play last year. Making the loss of Shaw a big deal is really grasping at straws especially because everyone is hoping for some of our young players to step it up this year. Losing Shaw just opens up space on the roster and frees up cap space.

 

[Tabarouette]

I'm all in for a tank year, trade more guys.

counter offer : we drive for 9th again

 

[Rapala]

The Teflon will soon be cracking...if the Habs get out of the gate slow this year, Youppi will be taking over....

Best possible scenario... I wish it happened early last year.

 

[417]

He won't trade those guys because his objective is to make the POs. Maybe Petry within next year if we suck and his demands are too high for an extension.

Which is the same objective for 31 NHL teams...yes, even those rebuilding, won't "wholesale" their entire roster.

If you bought a house in 2017 at 500k, selling in 2019 at 475K, well then the value isn't at its peak now is it.

This is a poor analogy.

Bottom line, we sold him for cheaper than we purchased.

I mean, if you ignore all mitigating factors - sure I can see how you've reached this conclusion.

There is no trial.
You claim something, back it up. All I'm hearing from you is nobody knows. Great...so...you don't know if it can be replaced.

Is this a joke?

I claimed that I think Andrew Shaw's production can be replaced from within...that's what I think, which of course, isn't a guarantee.

You claim that no rookie/young player can replace Andrew Shaw's production...that's what you think.

Neither of us know

So what is the issue here??? Are you some ruling authority whose opinion trumps all others?

I think his production can be replaced, you can't...i'm good with that.

You are right, maybe a rookie will come in to put up 50pts...Maybe KK will triple his production too.
Who knows. Sounds like the perfect Bergevin strategy actually.
Let's not plan anything and just hope for the best!

Or maybe everyone on the roster will have the worst years of their careers...

Does that fall more in line with what you want to read?

My assumption is more valid as I'm basing myself on what we have. We don't have any top 6-9 prospects in the AHL just itching to make the NHL. We have younger guys who were in the juniors who had good years, so I won't bet on those guys yet, hence me saying ''as of right now''.
You're just throwing it out there randomly that his production can be replaced internally. Ya, sure, technically speaking, we have prospects...maybe anyone of them can replace him, or not. Basically you have no clue.

But it's not lol

Again...you're not a ruling authority here. Your word isn't bond.

You're entitled to your opinion on hypothetical scenarios...but you're not allowed to s**t on others opinions while propping up yours.

Last year you thought there was no way Max Domi could ever replace Galchenyuk's production.

Well he did.

Come on man.

Well duh....you want him to be rebuilding for 12 years?

I'm sorry but no team just liquidates their entire roster when they're "rebuilding"...which by the way, is NOT what Bergevin HIMSELF he stated he wanted to do.

He SPECIFICALLY said he wanted to do a reset and that trading everyone on his roster was not something he was going to do.

The Bruins didn't gut their entire roster when Don Sweeney came aboard...he traded some key players (Hamilton, Lucic) but kept the core of his team (Chara, Rask, Bergeron, Krejci, Marchand) and built around it.

So I don't know why you would ask a sarcastic question like this when you know very well that I never called for him to rebuild for 12 years.

Take a deep breath man...you're boiling for no reason.

I never said he was and I'm perfectly happy with trading him. But his contribution of last year is now gone and it should be replaced. Pretty simple.

Yes and no one on this roster could possibly replace it.

Got it

 

[417]

Well it depends on what you think the difference is between Shaw and the player that will replace him. You don't just lose Shaw's 47 points. Someone else will play those minutes... the question is more who will play those minutes... and what will they do with them?

It's a bit risky, but Bergevin is banking on other players being able to step up and fill those minutes. Personally I like the move I think it will be the right move because I think guys like Kotkienemi, Suzuki and Poehling will benefit from those minutes... and ultimately those are the guys that will need to carry this team to the next level anyway.

Agreed 100%

I mean...Bergevin was on record stating that he wants the team to be YOUNGER & FASTER.

He then trades Andrew Shaw.

And people still rant and rave that they don't see his plan or he has no direction.

I mean...argue all day whether or not his plan is the right one or that he's even capable of executing it. I have my doubts as well.

But when he does, exactly what he stated he was going to do...

You can't just sit there and deny what's right in front of you.

 

[417]

Right, and given Shaw's style, it's not just points you lose.
Max Domi called Shaw the most underrated player on the team when he went on TLMP last year because of his ''character'' and ''leadership''.

And he was also called "Shawful" by many Habs fans here...

No one here cared when Max Domi said that...but now, different story?

Man...if this wasn't so typical of Habs fans I'd laugh.

 

[417]

[MOD]

I said trading Shaw (19g 47pts in 63gp) without replacing him when we are trying to make the POs does not make sense.
I'm not upset hes gone, I never cared for Shaw, glad we moved him for picks.
I'm saying this move does not put us in a better position to make the POs, that's all there is to it.

Could others step up? Sure...they could, but will they? No idea. Do we expect it? I dont. I'm not expecting much from junior players making the jump to pro level in their rookie year.

That's all there is to it. I'm not upset we moved Shaw. Just making a point that it ain't making us better next season.

But isn't that what you ultimately want?

 

[417]

I luke the trade but still would like to know from Bergevin why he did it. My best guess is he didn't want to risk Shaw getting injured, declining, and beieng on the cap for 4 million when we have all the young guys to sign. It also helps that Timmins was hot with 2nd to 4th round picks in the previous 3 drafts (Mete, Brook, Romanov, etc..)

If you've been paying attention to his press conferences since February of 2018...he's told you why.

 

[Kriss E]

It's pretty simple really. You are talking about losing Shaw as if it's a big deal. But it's only as big as the difference between him and the players taking up his ice-time. Some of those players may be coming out of junior, but it could also mean that some vets get more ice time especially on the power play where Shaw did play last year. Making the loss of Shaw a big deal is really grasping at straws especially because everyone is hoping for some of our young players to step it up this year. Losing Shaw just opens up space on the roster and frees up cap space.

No I'm not. That's your own interpretation.
I said moving a 50pt winger without replacing him while fighting to make the POs after missing them does not make any sense.
I dont care about Shaw, glad he was moved, I hope we will move more guys later too.
I dont think it's a big deal he is out, just that it doesnt make sense.

 

[417]

No I'm not. That's your own interpretation.
I said moving a 50pt winger without replacing him while fighting to make the POs after missing them does not make any sense.
I dont care about Shaw, glad he was moved, I hope we will move more guys later too.
I dont think it's a big deal he is out, just that it doesnt make sense.

What part of

"I want to make the team younger and faster"

Is not getting through to you?

I'm sorry, not trying to be an ***, it's a legit question. What part of that quote from Bergevin and the subsequent moves he's made since he made that statement, including the Shaw trade, doesn't make sense to you?

Because IMO, you may not agree with moving Shaw...but within the context provided by the GM's own words...

I have a hard time understanding why anyone could be confused at such a move.

 

[OldCraig71]

Maybe we are trying to not make the playoffs. Big home grown talent available at the end of the year. I agree with the head scratcher. We JUST got show and he is broomed out the door? I mean there was a number of reasons I didn't like him, many non hockey related, but it's fishy that he was traded.