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Prospect Info: Hartford Wolf Pack (AHL)/Maine Mariners (ECHL) Thread *Part X*

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Gerry Cantlon of Howlings.com wrote a piece on his prediction for what the wolfpack might look like next year. CANTLON'S CORNER: OFF-SEASON NEWS AND NOTES - VOLUME I.

There were several items I thought were of interest.

Goalies: He predicts neither Halverson nor Nell will be resigned. The Rangers have four goalies under contract for next year: Hank, Georgiev, Huska and Shestyorkin. The Rangers have had five goalies under contract each year and last year had six. Given that Shestyorkin has an out clause I predict the Rangers definitely will sign one or maybe two goalies for Hartford/Maine.

Defense: Not surprisingly he predicts Biagras is resigned and expects Gilmour, O'Gara and Bergmann to be gone. While he expects Raddysh to be back he was very negative on his performance with Hartford.

Forwards: He has a long quote from Meskanen: “They were very honest with me about my play. I really liked when they told me what I had to improve on. Playing with Holly (Holland) was very good for me. He helped me (adjust) both on and off the ice and to get used to North American style. I know I have to improve my skating and get stronger to win the one-on-one open battles in the corner, so I’m looking forward to working on that in summer practices. I think I have a better idea of what it’s like here and I will be more ready next year. I had no clue when I got here.” Meskanen replied with his sly, dry wit." So it seems clear he will be back for another season.

Cantlon felt that Ty Ronning was misused, Dawson Leedahl will spend the year in Maine and that the end of the season players "all showed good skill sets and should be in training camp in the fall."

Finally, he also had the following quote from Tim Gettinger: "“I have been more physical consistently in the offensive and defensive zone. It’s a big summer for me personally and everybody in the room to be fully ready for training camp in the fall. It’s gonna be a whole new coaching staff to adjust to, but we have to work harder and try to worry about the things off the ice and concentrate what we do on the ice,” commented the rookie winger while driving back to the Cleveland area for the summer."

Cantlon thinks the Rangers are making a mistake with Vinnie L. by not giving him a better chance and he calls Gabriel Fontaine "...a bubble player for returning."
 
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redwhiteandblue said:
Not denying what could be there but I do not see the fascination so many people have with VL.
Click to expand...

This is not directed just at you, but I find it really annoying that people expect kids to hit their prime by the age of 20, then get mad at the player if he still has growing to do at the age of 22/23.

Vinni was 23 most of last season. MZA spent most of the year in the minors when he was 24. Took him until 25.5 to be a f/t NHLer. Even guys who make the NHL at 19 or 22 still take more time to get better.

Vinni went from a very routine .65 ppg to a great 1.0 ppg as a sophomore. In terms of the eye test, he went from a complimentary AHLer to a dominant one. He's now a AAAA player. If he takes a similar jump next next season, he's a 3rd liner.

Can he stop improving at the age of 24? No doubt. But there's zero indication right now that this is what will happen. There's at least a 50-50 chance of Vinni turning into a quality NHL player.
 
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Beacon said:
This is not directed just at you, but I find it really annoying that people expect kids to hit their prime by the age of 20, then get mad at the player if he still has growing to do at the age of 22/23.

Vinni was 23 most of last season. MZA spent most of the year in the minors when he was 24. Took him until 25.5 to be a f/t NHLer. Even guys who make the NHL at 19 or 22 still take more time to get better.

Vinni went from a very routine .65 ppg to a great 1.0 ppg as a sophomore. In terms of the eye test, he went from a complimentary AHLer to a dominant one. He's now a AAAA player. If he takes a similar jump next next season, he's a 3rd liner.

Can he stop improving at the age of 24? No doubt. But there's zero indication right now that this is what will happen. There's at least a 50-50 chance of Vinni turning into a quality NHL player.
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Well I agree with your point about players taking a while to develop (and I’m fine with that, it’s part of having good organizational depth), Mats is a bad example. Pretty obviously Mats’ talent slipped through the cracks because of a) the world not being as small as it is even now b) him being old enough to make waves on an Olympic team in the middle of nowhere. He made the most of an extraordinary opportunity.

Either way, as far as VL, he really has just been so underwhelming for me. At almost all points. We’re going through rebuild and figuring things out. Next guy up, hell I actually preferred Gettinger if anything. I just don’t get some people’s fascination. Keep him around a couple of more years and if he capitalizes on a shot with a cup of coffee cool. Seem to hear an awful lot more than you should about him though.
 
The problem I've seen with Vinny is that whatever he is able to do to succeed in the AHL he has not found a way to do in the NHL. He's not a puck possession guy, he doesn't even forecheck necessarily effectively, and while he shoots a lot and has a "good" shot, it's not so good that he's going to make a NHL career out of pulling the trigger.

I definitely wouldn't say he has a 50-50 chance of becoming a NHL player, he has a lot of work to do in order to figure that out.
 
There's obviously a chance that Lettieri could make the NHL, but it's more slim than 50/50.

His fore-checking, hard-working energy game hasn't even come close to translating yet, and his shot is less Pirri-esque and more Pirri lite.
 
Ranger Ric said:
Gerry Cantlon of Howlings.com wrote a piece on his prediction for what the wolfpack might look like next year. CANTLON'S CORNER: OFF-SEASON NEWS AND NOTES - VOLUME I. ..."
Click to expand...

Gerry is a well meaning guy, and hard-working in his way,
however, like Howlings host/MC Mitch Beck, can be incomplete or indifferent about some facts and pro hockey ways.

silly trivial example - Gilmour was not undrafted

another - Fogarty is not a Group 6 UFA,
signing an extension, while under contract, meant that neither he, nor Nieves, ever achieved Group 6 UFA status in 2019

also all his mentions of players being "bought out" of ELCs, (Raddysh, Fontaine, Leedahl)
there is very little precedent, especially among NYR, of players being bought out of ELC's
recent example -
Sam Noreau had 2 mediocre years to begin his ELC,
his 3rd year of NYR ELC was spent on loan to 2 ECHL team NOT affiliated w NYR, but NOT bought out
Samuel Noreau Hockey Stats and Profile at hockeydb.com
Samuel Noreau - CapFriendly - NHL Salary Caps

Thirdly, his discussion of non-tendering RFA Halverson, and RFA Lettieri signing elsewhere,
again there is little precedent for not qualifying, at conclusion of their ELC, either a 2d round Goalie or a 23-year-old AHL 20-goal,PPG scorer
Lettieri may choose to not sign his QO, but i suspect it is likely both will be Q)'d

anyway, i am not bashing him, i enjoy reading his stuff,
just reminding our peeps here that Gerry should not be considered an authoritative source regarding how things may shake out
 
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I agree that neither Halverson nor Nell will be brought back. Nell is horrible. Borderline-ECHL quality. Halverson, they tried to give him a chance to show what he has, and he didn't play very well. Maybe they try to bring him back on an AHL deal, but I don't think they qualify him, regardless of where or when he was drafted. He just hasn't developed much since we took him. They'll sign another Tokarski/Mazanec-type veteran goalie and that will be about it.

I also agree that Bigras will be qualified, and given one final year. Also agreed that Gilmour, O'Gara, and Bergman are likely gone.

Meskanen coming back was, I think, a given. To my knowledge he has no EAC, so he can't leave on his own. That means they would have needed to agree to a mutual termination of his contract. He showed enough last year to warrant another season, I think.

IMO Ty Ronning was misused by being used. He looks like an ECHL-caliber player. Yes, I know he was a rookie, but I didn't see anything from him in the handful of AHL games where I saw him that leads me to believe he has the skill set to thrive in the AHL (and forget about the NHL). I hope to be wrong on that. Leedahl is a 4th line PKer at the AHL level and nothing more. He doesn't have any legitimate professional skill. You don't go 29 full games without a point, even with limited TOI, if you have AHL-caliber skill. He's a nothing prospect.

I don't see it with Vinni. He's a better Ryan Gropp, but still has the same issues of not consistently finding the space to get off his shot and otherwise not really bringing much to the table. You definitely qualify him--legitimate star 4A player, always the possibility he take an unexpected step--but I don't feel that the Rangers have made any mistakes with him. They've given him opportunities and he hasn't done much with them. And now he's about to get pushed out by higher-end prospects.

I don't know why Fontaine would be "on the bubble." He has a year left. Hopefully he takes the Fogarty leap. If not, then he's a fine 3/4C for Hartford who can also kill penalties well. He's not much of a prospect but I can't understand why someone would think the Rangers would just dump him at this point.

I also think Crawley and Gropp will be playing for a QO next year. I think Gropp's improvement towards the end of the season puts him in a better spot. I don't think Crawley is very good. Again, like some of the other guys mentioned, you can not qualify him and it's unlikely that anyone else gives him an NHL deal--so you can try to bring them back on an AHL deal if you still like something about them.

I know this is limited to existing NA prospects, but I'll add Lakatos is done in our organization and I'm 50/50 on Virta. Based on this season I would have guessed that they would not give him a deal, but there have been a few quotes from people around him/his teams about him heading to North America, so we'll see.
 
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redwhiteandblue said:
Well I agree with your point about players taking a while to develop (and I’m fine with that, it’s part of having good organizational depth), Mats is a bad example. Pretty obviously Mats’ talent slipped through the cracks because of a) the world not being as small as it is even now b) him being old enough to make waves on an Olympic team in the middle of nowhere. He made the most of an extraordinary opportunity.

Either way, as far as VL, he really has just been so underwhelming for me. At almost all points. We’re going through rebuild and figuring things out. Next guy up, hell I actually preferred Gettinger if anything. I just don’t get some people’s fascination. Keep him around a couple of more years and if he capitalizes on a shot with a cup of coffee cool. Seem to hear an awful lot more than you should about him though.
Click to expand...
Vinni has indeed been disappointing at the NHL level. But by all accounts he has been great in the AHL. As @Beacon and others have pointed out, some players just take longer. I'd add that the role is also a key. Vinni is likely best-suited to be a scoring "top six" winger. But those spots weren't open for him with the Rangers. So he filled a completely different role with the Rangers. Which is tough. He may not be a guy who can score in a checking role. It maybe just not yet. But I would say there's still potential. Either as a Top Six scorer were that role to open up or he takes it. Or maybe he'll learn to score while filling a checking role. Either way, I think he took a big step forward last season and I'm hopeful for him.
 
egelband said:
Vinni has indeed been disappointing at the NHL level. But by all accounts he has been great in the AHL. As @Beacon and others have pointed out, some players just take longer. I'd add that the role is also a key. Vinni is likely best-suited to be a scoring "top six" winger. But those spots weren't open for him with the Rangers. So he filled a completely different role with the Rangers. Which is tough. He may not be a guy who can score in a checking role. It maybe just not yet. But I would say there's still potential. Either as a Top Six scorer were that role to open up or he takes it. Or maybe he'll learn to score while filling a checking role. Either way, I think he took a big step forward last season and I'm hopeful for him.
Click to expand...

I think the roles of scorers being top-6 players is a bit outdated. Up to the o0s or even the second lockout, the idea was to have 2 scoring lines, a checking line and a goon line. The goon lines no longer exist, and now we have 3 lines expected to score plus the 4th line that needs to not just check, but hopefully cycle in the offensive end.

There are now 9 spots for a guy like Vinni, which makes things much easier.

The reason I still have hope for him is that he's still improving at a rapid pace. If he plateaus next year, then he's going to have a Newb-like career as a great AHLer, but only a handful of NHL cups of coffee. But there's a pretty good shot he does not plateau just yet.
 
With all the talk of Rikard Grönborg possibly interviewing for the Sabres coaching vacancy, is there any chance that Filip Pesan is a name that get's thrown around by Drury and co? I know that there was talk of the Rangers fostering a relationship with him and that he was invited to participate in prospect camp a few seasons ago. Maybe if the Czech's have a good showing at the World Championships?
 
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I hear what you’re saying. As far as his development in the AHL, I’d faithfully take your word on it as I don’t have access outside of what’s reported here by people who actually watch. I’m not opposed to him getting another shot. I just wouldn’t be hesitant to see what other guys have to offer if it doesn’t stick fairly soon after he’s up. That would be kind of his 3rd opportunity really.

I suppose if he’s really been that good again this year I can understand hearing his name more. He’s left me with more to be desired as of now and the window for him to get a legit shot and stick is closing quick IMO.
 
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If we do go with JD, what about seeing if Brad Larsen wants to coach the Pack? He's had success as an AHL with Springfield before, and he's a current assistant for CBJ.

It's probably unrealistic, but he's a name I don't remember seeing anyone mention before. I'd be surprised if they went with an OHL guy.
 
Mac n Gs said:
If we do go with JD, what about seeing if Brad Larsen wants to coach the Pack? He's had success as an AHL with Springfield before, and he's a current assistant for CBJ.

It's probably unrealistic, but he's a name I don't remember seeing anyone mention before. I'd be surprised if they went with an OHL guy.
Click to expand...

Thing is, if you're an assistant in the NHL, you still fly private planes to major cities, stay in luxury hotels, eat at top restaurants on the team dime. If you're the AHL Coach, you're taking the bus overnight to Utica, stay in a motel and eat at a $7.99 buffet. And none of the top management remembers you're alive most days.

You must be really dedicated to being a head coach to prefer the latter to the former.
 
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@nyr2k2 Vinni is a hard nut to crack. I've not seen a ton of HFD last season, but when I've seen them play he has often really stood out. And not in a way that you would assume that it would be terribly hard for him to adjust to the NHL either.

I think he has been OK, or barely that, in the NHL.

I also think it shows us how hard it is to get into the NHL right now for these type of players. Looking at kids out there, not many at all will be able to come in and become as good as Lettieri is in the AHL. PPG for a worthless team. He isn't the type who 'everything goes through' that get a bunch of cheap 2ndary assists.

It is really telling to compare Vinni Lettieri to Andreas Johnsson's play in Toronto. I've seen a lot of both over the years. I would say that Lettieri is a bit stronger player overall at the AHL level, but that Johnsson accomplish much more in the NHL. Why is that? Johnsson really stands out in terms of skating, intensity and ability to handle the puck in traffic. Lettieri really stands out with his shot, his ability to get into shooting positions, and having an overall solid game. No big flaws. Fairly strong, fairly good skater, and so forth.

And I think this is a trend that will continue for the coming years in the NHL. The fastest kids or the most skilled kids or the kids with the best hands or best vision or whatever -- they will get jobs. Vinnie Hinostroza types, puck and skating wiz. Or guys that really stands out in other areas. But I think a lot of other kids, that even if they have a high total skill level but not necessarily stands out a lot in terms of speed and ability to skate with the puck in traffic and so forth, will have a much harder time.

I certainly hope that this is an aspect that we -- continue, I think we have done it in the past years too -- to be careful about, ie getting fairly skilled guys playing an offensive style of hockey, that could be very hard to take to the NHL level. There are many guys in like the 20-50 range that gives me the impression of being able to get to like Vinnie L's level, but they don't have the ability that like an Andreas Johnsson have to play in traffic or don't have a Hinostroza's ability to stickhandle and so forth. Guys who I just think have a risk to be fairly bleak when they get to the NHL level. I think a Tyler Jost is an example of a kid like that, good, very good even, but not elite. That won't amount to a great deal.
 
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Ola said:
@nyr2k2 Vinni is a hard nut to crack. I've not seen a ton of HFD last season, but when I've seen them play he has often really stood out. And not in a way that you would assume that it would be terribly hard for him to adjust to the NHL either.

I think he has been OK, or barely that, in the NHL.

I also think it shows us how hard it is to get into the NHL right now for these type of players. Looking at kids out there, not many at all will be able to come in and become as good as Lettieri is in the AHL. PPG for a worthless team. He isn't the type who 'everything goes through' that get a bunch of cheap 2ndary assists.

It is really telling to compare Vinni Lettieri to Andreas Johnsson's play in Toronto. I've seen a lot of both over the years. I would say that Lettieri is a bit stronger player overall at the AHL level, but that Johnsson accomplish much more in the NHL. Why is that? Johnsson really stands out in terms of skating, intensity and ability to handle the puck in traffic. Lettieri really stands out with his shot, his ability to get into shooting positions, and having an overall solid game. No big flaws. Fairly strong, fairly good skater, and so forth.

And I think this is a trend that will continue for the coming years in the NHL. The fastest kids or the most skilled kids or the kids with the best hands or best vision or whatever -- they will get jobs. Vinnie Hinostroza types, puck and skating wiz. Or guys that really stands out in other areas. But I think a lot of other kids, that even if they have a high total skill level but not necessarily stands out a lot in terms of speed and ability to skate with the puck in traffic and so forth, will have a much harder time.

I certainly hope that this is an aspect that we -- continue, I think we have done it in the past years too -- to be careful about, ie getting fairly skilled guys playing an offensive style of hockey, that could be very hard to take to the NHL level. There are many guys in like the 20-50 range that gives me the impression of being able to get to like Vinnie L's level, but they don't have the ability that like an Andreas Johnsson have to play in traffic or don't have a Hinostroza's ability to stickhandle and so forth. Guys who I just think have a risk to be fairly bleak when they get to the NHL level. I think a Tyler Jost is an example of a kid like that, good, very good even, but not elite. That won't amount to a great deal.
Click to expand...

The AHL is more of a graveyard than people recognize. For one, Russia went from feeding the AHL to stealing from it. Two, NHL teams are getting progressively younger because of cap pressures, so they call up ELCs over vets. A kid who's just trying to make the NHL will toil in the AHL for years in hopes of making the NHL even if those hopes are slight, in part because he has no other way to pay the bills. A veteran who already made $5-40 million is probably not going to ride the bus with a bunch of 21 year olds, he will just retire.

The eye test of AHL hockey is that it is worse now. Think of Shawn McCosh, J-Y Roy, Barry Richter, Ferraro twins, Ken Gernander, among others scoring over ppg for our Bingo in the 90s. Who's on par with them today? At the time, there were multiple guys like that every season on every AHL team. Gilmore is not close to Richter, and Vinni+Mess are not the Ferraro twins or Roy+McCosh.

The existence of the KHL plus the NHL getting younger means the NHL/AHL gap is much wider now, so great AHL players may not be close to the NHL.
 
so for those that following hartford and the AHL more closely...obviously the first and more important thing to fix the absolute mess in Hartford is hiring the right coaching staff to develop players. and hartford will hopefully see more talented prospects coming their way...but possibly the second most important thing to change the culture is to get some AAAA players to play along with those kids...

so who might be available that we can target this summer to bring in? this is drury's time to prove he deserves to be the rangers gm after gorton.
 
Leetch3 said:
so for those that following hartford and the AHL more closely...obviously the first and more important thing to fix the absolute mess in Hartford is hiring the right coaching staff to develop players. and hartford will hopefully see more talented prospects coming their way...but possibly the second most important thing to change the culture is to get some AAAA players to play along with those kids...

so who might be available that we can target this summer to bring in? this is drury's time to prove he deserves to be the rangers gm after gorton.
Click to expand...
It's tough to know who will be out there since, to my knowledge, there's not a reliable resource of AHL contracts. Because of that, it's hard to know who is becoming available without looking up specific guys and seeing if the terms of their deals were announced when they signed.

Another element is that a lot of the 4A guys will be guys that enter RFA status and are not qualified. We won't know that until late next month. Once we see who isn't qualified we'll have a better idea of some guys that might be available.
 
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Hajek/Rykov (hopefully one of them makes it in the NHL at some point this season), Lindgren, Craw and Day would be on the LD.

Bigras and Raddysh should be re-signed as RDs. Need to sign an RD AAAA guy and someone who can step in when an RD is injured or called up. It's actually pretty good to have kids on the left and vets on the right since they can be matched with each other easily.

Vinni, Mess, Foggy, Getts, Fontaine, Gropp, probably Elmer and Newell are good in the AHL. Maybe Ronning, maybe not. It is fun watching him slide his butt on the ice every single shift, but not sure that deserves an AHL spot. The forwards are pretty atrocious unless we get 3-4 more top AHL guys and a couple ok ones (AHL loses twice as many players since it's not only injuries, but also callups). Only Barron may be joining the Pack among our forward draftees in the next couple of seasons, so it's crucial to sign several top AHLers (and I don't mean not Butler).
 
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