blundluntman
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Hart Trophy Tournament (Post 2000's) Round 2: 2007 Crosby vs 2008 Ovechkin
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DitchMarner
It's time.
I'd take Ovechkin here. I just think the 65 goals tilts it in his favor.
If these were the 2010s versions of these players, there might be a decent argument that Crosby deserves the nod because of superior defense or five on five play, but at that stage of their careers I don't think he has any clear five on five advantage.
If these were the 2010s versions of these players, there might be a decent argument that Crosby deserves the nod because of superior defense or five on five play, but at that stage of their careers I don't think he has any clear five on five advantage.
Crosby's season was great, Ovechkin's was probably the best of their era. Crosby never had that signature season due to injuries and whatnot.
blundluntman
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Yeah I have to say I agree. Crosby in 07 wasn't a defensive stalwart by any means at that point in his career so it's really a matter of who tipped the scale more offensively. Crosby's 07 season was really impressive, but Ovi in 08 was just something else. I really enjoyed Crosby's game in his earlier years though. He wasn't a force of nature in the same sense as Ovi but he had a great combination of nimble/explosive athleticism and a crafty/gritty approach to the game.
Satoru Gojo
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There has always been a significant gap between the two defensively, even going back to their first season, suggesting otherwise is revisionist history. That's said I think OV's season was probably better overall.
Funny enough nobody called Crosby a two way player until his offence started to decline.
I do think it was somewhat true, he did get better, but Sid was no defensive player when he was at his peak.
Crosby's defensive ability has been very good since his third season or so, especially in the playoffs, when he would focus more on that. Stop gaslighting people into thinking this is a recent development.
And Ovechkin has always been a terrible defensive player
blundluntman
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I never said they were on the same level defensively, I said the difference in their offensive contributions was what separated the two. Crosby was competent enough in his own end but it wasn't like he was being deployed to shut down other teams' top forwards in 2007... Both players were deployed more for their offense and Ovi brought more to the table.
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That's merely a media narrative that was sold to the masses. It's what many of you wanted to hear. I'm sure they got their clicks.
In reality, Crosby and Ovechkin's deployments and defensive statistics were quite similar during their primes - and nowhere near the stats or deployments of the actual very good defensive players.
Took Crosby here as he captained and lead the previous season 58 point Penguins to 105 points.
That being said I can see why Ovi is running away with the poll it's like another poster brought up if you think one is $500 and one is $499 then you take the 500.
It's really close if one look at it, like most of these 2nd round matchups.
That being said I can see why Ovi is running away with the poll it's like another poster brought up if you think one is $500 and one is $499 then you take the 500.
It's really close if one look at it, like most of these 2nd round matchups.
filinski77
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First time I've seen you come up with this creative argument to put Crosby's season over Ovi's 2008 lol.
Give all the credit to Crosby for the teams success but conveniently leave out:
1) Malkin existing on the Penguins for the first time. One of the best rookie seasons of all-time by a top-30 player of all-time.
2) Had Recchi for 33% more of the season than in the year prior
3) Ryan Whitney was no longer a rookie and took a good step in 2007
4) Jordan Staal comes in as a rookie and has a solid rookie year with 29 goals
5) Fleury's second year in the league and takes a massive step as a goaltender, and also played a bunch more games in the year previous
There are a TON of reasons why the Penguins improved so much as a team, Crosby is one of them, but to use that as the reason why that season is better is just showing your bias with Crosby.
Ovechkin had pretty much as many goals as second place on his own team had POINTS and lead his team to the division title and their first playoff showing in 4 years.
This is a weird series of polls pitting Hart winners from different years against each other in that Hart voting and specific years are just that.
I didn't leave anything out thought it was something important like when Hall won his Hart by leading the team to the playoffs when if NJ had one less win then he probably doesn't finish top 5 in Hart voting that year.
Sure but on the flipside Ovi had a premier setup man in Backstrom in Washington and Malkin was still far behind Crosby in team scoring not the Hart type of player for another year.
Yes Rechhi was 38 years old and most of us can agree that crosby was the guy driving the bus not Recchi.
Most people would take the emergence of Mike Green ehre over Whitney though right for the season involved.
Sure Staal's emergence was a big deal in Pittsburg although he was 7th in icetime among all Pens forwards so let's not try to overstate things here.
Sure Fleury did take that step and yet in other years when he collapsed and it's pointed out do you agree as well or is it situational?
Asking for MJ here.
Funny that picking one of 2 players in this poll is an obvious bias eh?
Sure there are tons of reasons but Crosby was probably the major one right?
Sure like I said I understand why Ovi is winning this poll and can't argue against it but without looking at and watching each season in depth it's not exactly a slam dunk here either, one can make strong cases for either guy and it's close if one factors the whole picture here.
JackSlater
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filinski77
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Points relative to league: Pretty much a wash
| Points | Points | ||||
| Ovi | 112 | Crosby | 120 | ||
| #2 | 106 | 6% | #2 | 114 | 5% |
| #10 | 87 | 29% | #10 | 95 | 26% |
Goals relative to league: Ovechkin with likely the most dominant goalscoring year of the last 30-40 years. Crosby 10% behind #10.
| Goals | Goals | ||||
| Ovi | 65 | Crosby | 36 | ||
| #2 | 52 | 25% | #1 | 52 | -31% |
| #10 | 40 | 63% | #10 | 40 | -10% |
Points relative to own team: Crosby had much more help than Ovi did. Ovechkin having as many goals as Backstrom pretty much had points is astonishing.
| Ovi | 112 | Crosby | 120 | ||
| #2 | 69 | 62% | #2 | 85 | 41% |
| #3 | 56 | 100% | #3 | 68 | 76% |
| #4 | 54 | 107% | #4 | 67 | 79% |
| #5 | 42 | 167% | #5 | 59 | 103% |
Goals relative to own team: This is just an insane comparison.
| Ovi | 65 | Crosby | 36 | ||
| #2 | 26 | 150% | #2 | 33 | 9% |
| #3 | 21 | 210% | #3 | 29 | 24% |
| #4 | 18 | 261% | #4 | 24 | 50% |
| #5 | 16 | 306% | #5 | 19 | 89% |
Overall: Fantastic season by Crosby, but Ovechkin's was clearly better.
JackSlater
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Playing fewer games is bad when comparing who had a better season.
Missing 3 games isn't like missing 20+ though.
One can talk about small sample sizes and they do matter for end of season awards but Crosby scored at a higher rate but of course people are going to go with the 65 goals here and that's fair.
I do think though that Crosby should get some credit for leading a 58 point team to 105 points though and Ovi went from 74 to 90.
JackSlater
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It's a negative regardless, it just becomes more of a negative the more games are missed. It can be more impressive to do something in fewer games, but it's better and more valuable to actually play the games.
Sure that's true for all post season awards.
I just don't think the difference between the 2 seasons is all that great but people will gravitate to the goals and sort of gloss over the other differences.
DitchMarner
It's time.
I guess you can look at it like this: If a player is actively contributing to his team outside of scoring, then you want him in the line-up and the more games he plays, the more value he brings.
Ovechkin's been accused of not bringing that much outside of scoring at times, but in his first two Hart seasons he definitely made a positive impact on a regular basis. If he wasn't scoring, he was getting in on the forecheck and banging guys and he also contributed a lot to his team in terms of transition and pushing the play toward the opponent's goal. There's a reason the Caps fared so much better with him on the ice than with him off the ice. That's a guy you want for 82 games and if he had missed any, they might have missed the playoffs.
