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Pre-Game Talk: Habs vs Lightning Jan 21

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Will we win?

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WeThreeKings said:
How is it jumping the gun? He doesn't get the starters job, nobody does.. they keep playing as they keep winning. If Dobes loses on Tuesday, Monty gets the next net.

It's a completely fair situation when the younger goalie is playing hot and winning games. You don't just leave that on the bench. If you want to establish a meritocracy, that's what you do.

It's healthy competition. No one gets a start they didn't earn.
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Dobes should be focused on developing his technique, not battling for a spot against his teammate. He's a kid with barely any NHL experience who hasn't yet faced adversity. He will inevitably have a bad game. When that happens, he should focus on learning from it and moving on. Last thing he needs is to worry that he just lost his next start.

It's too soon for a meritocracy. Again, if we preach patience with every other aspect of the rebuild, why not with our goalie development?
 
Lshap said:
Dobes should be focused on developing his technique, not battling for a spot against his teammate. He's a kid with barely any NHL experience who hasn't yet faced adversity. He will inevitably have a bad game. When that happens, he should focus on learning from it and moving on. Last thing he needs is to worry that he just lost his next start.

It's too soon for a meritocracy. Again, if we preach patience with every other aspect of the rebuild, why not with our goalie development?
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He had a bit of a bad game last night and still found a way to battle and win. Which is something Monty didn't do in his last start.

He's not going to worry that he 'lost his next start', he's going to get back on the ice to practice and get better while waiting for his next opportunity.

It's not too soon for Meritocracy, they are fighting for a playoff spot and if he continues winning games, putting the lesser goalie in net, during that push, is not the right move.

There's nothing wrong with healthy competition and if either of them wilt under such an arrangement, it means a lot about whether or not there's a long term solution in there.
 
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red devil said:
The Lightning will be on a back to back as they play Toronto on Monday so Johansson will play against the Habs on Tuesday.
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Which is good news, he's not as good as Vasi, but he has above average numbers (.903).

Hopefully Monty has a bounce back game. We need him to play like he did against Dallas.

I think they go Monty vs TB. Dobes @ Detroit.
 
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BLONG7 said:
The goalie issue, is getting close to a crossroads.........
My hope is we get a good thing going between Monty and Dobes where they drive each other to be better.
The Bruins got a few years out of Ulmark and Sway.

Soon, maybe not quite yet, but soon the team will have to take anyone's feeling out of the goalie issue, and play the guy who is playing well. Monty or Dobes.
The pressure is firmly more on Monty than the kid.
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There is absolutely no goaltender controversy. The players said it last evening "no matter who we put in goal we believe we have a chance to win." If this sentiment goes away like it did with Jake Allen or like it did with Cayden Primeau then you ride the hot hand.
 
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WeThreeKings said:
He had a bit of a bad game last night and still found a way to battle and win. Which is something Monty didn't do in his last start.

He's not going to worry that he 'lost his next start', he's going to get back on the ice to practice and get better while waiting for his next opportunity.

It's not too soon for Meritocracy, they are fighting for a playoff spot and if he continues winning games, putting the lesser goalie in net, during that push, is not the right move.

There's nothing wrong with healthy competition and if either of them wilt under such an arrangement, it means a lot about whether or not there's a long term solution in there.
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It's not like Dobes is stuck on the bench behind two other goalies. He's already getting regular starts against top teams. He's developing his skills and his confidence at the NHL level. He's already become our de facto 1B. So why change a rotational system that's working?

We talk about the value of patience and coaching and development. So why are we talking about piling more onto this kid's plate after five games? In a couple of months... okay, he'll have quadrupled his NHL experience by then. But now feels like too soon.

As for Montembeault, yes, he was crap against the Leafs, but he's played over 150 games for us. We know he's generally solid and can redeem himself. If we want a shot at the playoffs, we need to give him that chance.
 
Lshap said:
It's not like Dobes is stuck on the bench behind two other goalies. He's already getting regular starts against top teams. He's developing his skills and his confidence at the NHL level. He's already become our de facto 1B. So why change a rotational system that's working?

We talk about the value of patience and coaching and development. So why are we talking about piling more onto this kid's plate after five games? In a couple of months... okay, he'll have quadrupled his NHL experience by then. But now feels like too soon.

As for Montembeault, yes, he was crap against the Leafs, but he's played over 150 games for us. We know he's generally solid and can redeem himself. If we want a shot at the playoffs, we need to give him that chance.
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Because in a tight playoff race, you should be putting the guy in net that is giving you the best chance to win. Right now, that is Dobes. He's come in and played the top teams in the league, most times on back to backs, and won. There's nothing wrong with a win and you keep the net system when you have a tandem that we currently do with no real #1 goalie.

Again, we aren't piling more on his plate. We are saying, you've earned the right to get the next start, so take it and run with it. If he doesn't, then it's back to Monty for the next game with an opportunity to win.

No one is advocating for giving him the #1 goalie spot and playing him like that. He has earned the right to get the net more and if he keeps winning, he should keep playing.
 
WeThreeKings said:
Because in a tight playoff race, you should be putting the guy in net that is giving you the best chance to win. Right now, that is Dobes. He's come in and played the top teams in the league, most times on back to backs, and won. There's nothing wrong with a win and you keep the net system when you have a tandem that we currently do with no real #1 goalie.

Again, we aren't piling more on his plate. We are saying, you've earned the right to get the next start, so take it and run with it. If he doesn't, then it's back to Monty for the next game with an opportunity to win.

No one is advocating for giving him the #1 goalie spot and playing him like that. He has earned the right to get the net more and if he keeps winning, he should keep playing.
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I don't believe upping the stakes on the goalie rotation will make Montembeault or Dobes play better than they already have. Why change the format that got us here? Every game is already high-pressure; it's not like they need reminding they're in a playoff race.

Goalie performances are more variable than skaters. No matter how good, every goalie will have a stinker now and then, as Monty did Saturday night and Dobes will eventually. IMO, the response should be "Forget it. Move on". That becomes harder to do when you're told, "Sorry, you've now lost your next start". I don't see the upside for the team's playoff push, and I certainly don't see an upside for Dobes' longterm development.

The current rotation sends the message that both goalies are trusted, even after a subpar game. IMO, that's the best recipe for team success.
 
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Lshap said:
I don't believe upping the stakes on the goalie rotation will make Montembeault or Dobes play better than they already have. Why change the format that got us here? Every game is already high-pressure; it's not like they need reminding they're in a playoff race.

Goalie performances are more variable than skaters. No matter how good, every goalie will have a stinker now and then, as Monty did Saturday night and Dobes will eventually. IMO, the response should be "Forget it. Move on". That becomes harder to do when you're told, "Sorry, you've now lost your next start". I don't see the upside for the team's playoff push, and I certainly don't see an upside for Dobes' longterm development.
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It's not upping the stakes, it's going with the hot hand. Montembeault opened the door wide open for Dobes to take the net and run with it. That's on Montembeault, not giving Dobes deserved starts and dropping points because we are worried about development doesn't make any sense because why does he need to 'develop' more if he is winning the games that he is starting?

What is the deadline for Dobes' development to be considered done enough that his play could warrant more starts?

The Rangers didn't pull back on Shesterkin when he came over and won the net. They didn't when Lundqvist did it. Montreal didn't when Price did it. They didn't hesitate to give Halak the net when Price lost it to him, as well.

If Dobes' development is ruined, or Monty's confidence goes in the toilet, from a win and you get the next game scenario, then neither one of them are worth long term investment.

In fact, speaking of Halak.. I remember when he came in and was giving us win after win, and instead of giving Halak the net, they gave Huet the net in a game against Toronto we needed to win to get in. Huet played terrible, we lost and missed the playoffs.
 
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WeThreeKings said:
It's not upping the stakes, it's going with the hot hand. Montembeault opened the door wide open for Dobes to take the net and run with it. That's on Montembeault, not giving Dobes deserved starts and dropping points because we are worried about development doesn't make any sense because why does he need to 'develop' more if he is winning the games that he is starting?

What is the deadline for Dobes' development to be considered done enough that his play could warrant more starts?

The Rangers didn't pull back on Shesterkin when he came over and won the net. They didn't when Lundqvist did it. Montreal didn't when Price did it. They didn't hesitate to give Halak the net when Price lost it to him, as well.

If Dobes' development is ruined, or Monty's confidence goes in the toilet, from a win and you get the next game scenario, then neither one of them are worth long term investment.

In fact, speaking of Halak.. I remember when he came in and was giving us win after win, and instead of giving Halak the net, they gave Huet the net in a game against Toronto we needed to win to get in. Huet played terrible, we lost and missed the playoffs.
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You asked when Dobes merits more starts: After he's had a couple of subpar games. We have no idea how he'll respond to an off-night. This debate is only happening because he's had this crazy start with five straight wins. The kid looks invincible, except we know he really isn't. Five NHL games isn't enough.

We've seen the cracks in Montembeault's armour. He'll have a bad game, but almost always pulls himself together the next game. The org has trusted him, and he's repaid that trust with mostly solid goaltending. Until Fowler comes along and Dobes has a little more experience, I think the current system that got us here is our best formula.
 
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Lshap said:
You asked when Dobes merits more starts: After he's had a couple of subpar games. We have no idea how he'll respond to an off-night. This debate is only happening because he's had this crazy start with five straight wins. The kid looks invincible, except we know he really isn't. Five NHL games isn't enough.

We've seen the cracks in Montembeault's armour. He'll have a bad game, but almost always pulls himself together the next game. The org has trusted him, and he's repaid that trust with mostly solid goaltending. Until Fowler comes along and Dobes has a little more experience, I think the current system that got us here is our best formula.
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I disagree. I think the best formula is to go with the hot hand. Dobes isn't going to crumble because he has one bad game in the NHL. His development would only be hindered if he wasn't getting starts, or if he was kept in the NHL and getting shellacked every night because he isn't ready.

If the magic pixie dust wears off, then Montembeault is going to get his workload back and they'll likely move Dobes back to Laval then recall Primeau or do something else around the deadline to get a veteran back-up for the remainder of the year.

There's no risk on meriting the next start by winning your previous start. If there is, then again, the guys we have in the room, aren't the guys we are going to want to keep in the room. The position is too reliant on the mental side of things and if either one of them wilt because of a win and you get the next start proposition, then they need to rectify that mental softness.
 
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