Guy Lafleur's six year peak

[daver]

In terms of individual accomplishments in the regular season and in the playoffs, and his team's success, which players had a better six year stretch than Lafleur?

I will start with the Big Four. One could make an argument against Mario but he did enough to show he the clearly the better hockey player, which, IMO, is the foundation for a player comparison.

Beliveau ('55 to '60) comes to mind with one more Cup but he wasn't as dominant in the playoffs as Lafleur was and had only one Ross.

Esposito ('69 to '74) was statistically more dominant in the regular season and was similarly dominant in the playoffs but not as consistent.

Jagr ('95 to '00) and McDavid ('19 to '24) had multiple Rosses but no playoff success although McDavid's 2024 run might as well count as a Cup. Hull has a similar story.

Click to read more...

 

[VanIslander]

The thing is: one is not like the others.

After Bowman left Montreal, Lafleur had just one great year at the tail end of his Matterhorn-steep half-decade peak.

The Flower went on to pedestrian years and 1st-round playoff exits until a late conference final run where... he contributed zero goals, three assists.

 

[VanIslander]

Peak vs. Career becomes more significant when the overall career sucks.

 

[daver]

The thing is: one is not like the others.

After Bowman left Montreal, Lafleur had just one great year at the tail end of his Matterhorn-steep half-decade peak.

The Flower went on to pedestrian years and 1st-round playoff exits until a late conference final run where... he contributed zero goals, three assists.

This has nothing to do with the OP.

 

[VanIslander]

This has nothing to do with the OP.

A:"Which player had more goals in their first three seasons?"
B: "One of those guys never scored after year 4."

A legit reply.

Why tailor-make 6 years to Lafleur's great years?

Usually it is 5-year or 7-year or 10-year spans.

If you wanna say: Who was better over a 6-year span than Lafleur then throw the gauntlet down and make your intentions clear!

Otherwise, related comments are common.

 

[daver]

A:"Which player had more goals in their first three seasons?"
B: "One of those guys never scored after year 4."

A legit reply.

Why tailor-make 6 years to Lafleur's great years?

Usually it is 5-year or 7-year or 10-year spans.

If you wanna say: Who was better over a 6-year span than Lafleur then throw the gauntlet down and make your intentions clear!

Otherwise, related comments are common.

Because I wanted to. If you want to make a thread about other spans, go right ahead.

I have no agenda other than to highlight Guy's peak level; something that can be downplayed given the lead up to and the years after.

 

[VanIslander]

The most pp goals by far with 108 powerplay goals the last 6 years is is by whom?

Not runner-up 74-goal Reinhart nor 72-goal tied third Kreider, Pastrnak, Zibanejag. Nor distant Mc, Mac, Matthews.

The last six-year peak in pp goals is by far by... Draisaitl!!!

The only better powerplay point scorer than Lafleur during the 1970s was Espo, Perreault, Dionne!

 

[MadLuke]

If you wanna say: Who was better over a 6-year span than Lafleur then throw the gauntlet down and make your intentions clear!

Well that almost the exactly the thread, no ? Depending how much people take team success into it.

82-87, 83-88 and 84-89 Gretzky would be the 3 first 6 years span that come to mind.

Ridiculous amount of success (you have 84-87 cup canada in there as well)

 

[Matsun]

Gonna mention 2 guys that had their runs in the shadow of better players. Sakic:

Season	GP	P	PPG	PPG Rank	Playoff GP	Playoff P	Playoff point rank
95-96	82	120	1,46	5th	22	34	1st
96-97	65	74	1,14	11th	17	25	2nd
97-98	64	63	0,98	16th	6	5	-
98-99	73	96	1,32	3rd	19	19	4th
99-00	60	81	1,35	5th	17	9	-
00-01	82	118	1,44	1st	21	26	1st

Kucherov:

Season	GP	P	PPG	PPG Rank	Playoff GP	Playoff P	Playoff point rank
18-19	82	128	1,56	1st	3	2	-
19-20	68	85	1,25	8th	25	34	1st
20-21	-	-	-	-	23	32	1st
21-22	47	69	1,47	2nd	23	27	4th
22-23	82	113	1,38	5th	6	6	-
23-24	82	144	1,76	1st	5	7	-

Kind of similar runs. 2 cups as highest scorer. 2 super strong seasons. 1 very nice season (99/23) and 1 nice playoff run and some injuries.

 

[VanIslander]

Speaking of ridiculous success, this 29-year-old who had been best "rookie" two years prior, started the majority of games for the first time in the NHL and over that 6-year stretch:

• 5 Hart trophy finalist nods (two wins);
• 5 Vezinas (of course 1st team all star);
• 6-time consecutive leader in NHL save %
• The greatest international performance outside of the Summit Series.
• A Conn Smythe-robbed Game 6 Stanley Cup Finals run with a bunch of nobodies in Buffalo; a bad ref decision cost him a Game 7 chance to show that a team with zero HHOF skaters could win the cup over 7 HHOFers! He was that good.

A ridiculous NHL playoff game (talented NJ would go on to eke out a Game 7 win - only to face Messier's Game 7 guarantee later that 1994 spring):

Note: the 25th save was called "the save of the day!" but several candidates later came, including the clearly best 67th save.

 

[Overrated]

It's not going to be that many players since you purposefully picked a completely arbitrary "6 year" period. Impossible to make an argument against Lemieux I think. Gretzky who was Mario's equal peaked just a few years after Lafleur with 80 points more on average per season so it's safe to say that between the years 87/88 and 00/01 Mario's very worst season was still better than Lafleur's very best one.

Bossy had a better 6 year period imo. Better goal scorer, better defensively, better internationally. I'd probably pick all Beliveau, Hull and Esposito though I am not sure due to the specificity of the "6 year period". Sergei Makarov for sure was a superior player. I'd pick Yzerman, Jagr, Hasek Crosby, Ovechkin, McDavid too. There might be others but I am not sure it's gonna be close with a lot of players.

 

[MadLuke]

Do you have (not for Bossy which has an excellent argument) team success in account in that list of named player ? Prime Yzerman did not won much and was not even making team Canada to be better than Lafleur at it.

 

[Staniowski]

I think there were many players whose careers overlapped with Lafleur's six seasons who were better players (not necessarily in those six seasons):

Orr, Esposito, probably Clarke, Fetisov, Makarov, Bossy, Potvin, Robinson, Bourque, Gretzky, Messier. Maybe some others.

I think when people talk about these six Lafleur seasons, they kind of double count (regular season + playoffs) due to the fact that he played for great teams, and therefore scored a lot in the playoffs, and won four Cups.

The result is an inaccurate assessment of Lafleur's play, especially considering he wasn't, in my opinion, as good as his numbers.

 

[Overrated]

Do you have (not for Bossy which has an excellent argument) team success in account in that list of named player ? Prime Yzerman did not won much and was not even making team Canada to be better than Lafleur at it.

Nah I meant just in terms of individual ability. Once we take the team success into account sure Lafleur ends up better off as his team success coincided with his individual peak.

 

[Dale53130]

Do you have (not for Bossy which has an excellent argument) team success in account in that list of named player ? Prime Yzerman did not won much and was not even making team Canada to be better than Lafleur at it.

Just for reference:

Bossy regular season

Lafleur regular season

Bossy playoffs

Lafleur playoffs

Regular Season

363 goals, 357 assists, 720 points in 460 regular season games for Bossy. 55 GWG.

327 goals, 439 assists, 766 points in 462 regular season games for Lafleur. 63 GWG.

Playoffs

75 goals, 62 assists, 137 points in 103 playoff games for Bossy. 16 GWG.

51 goals, 59 assists in 110 points in 72 playoff games for Lafleur. 13 GWG.

Canada Cup

13 goals, 7 assists, 20 points in 15 games for Bossy.

3 goals, 14 assists, 17 points in 14 games for Lafleur.

Bossy's peak was basically his 3rd season through to his 2nd last season (IMO), in which case both Canada Cup appearances that he made he was still at his best. Lafleur by comparison, wasn't at his best by 1981-82; though oddly enough he performed very well in the Canada Cup that year as far as his stats go.

I went with 1978-79 through 1983-84 for Bossy, but I suppose you could go with 1979-80 through 1984-85 instead. I think he was better in 1978-79 than he was in 1984-85. In either scenario, you have to include his "down" year in 1979-80.

I'm still taking Lafleur, but it's a lot closer than people might think. It's not like the Islanders were any less relevant than those Montreal teams during their respective runs of 4-straight cup wins.

 

[daver]

Just for reference:

Bossy regular season

View attachment 914186

Lafleur regular season

View attachment 914188

Bossy playoffs

View attachment 914187

Lafleur playoffs

View attachment 914189

Regular Season

363 goals, 357 assists, 720 points in 460 regular season games for Bossy. 55 GWG.

327 goals, 439 assists, 766 points in 462 regular season games for Lafleur. 63 GWG.

Playoffs

75 goals, 62 assists, 137 points in 103 playoff games for Bossy. 16 GWG.

51 goals, 59 assists in 110 points in 72 playoff games for Lafleur. 13 GWG.

Canada Cup

13 goals, 7 assists, 20 points in 15 games for Bossy.

3 goals, 14 assists, 17 points in 14 games for Lafleur.

Bossy's peak was basically his 3rd season through to his 2nd last season (IMO), in which case both Canada Cup appearances that he made he was still at his best. Lafleur by comparison, wasn't at his best by 1981-82; though oddly enough he performed very well in the Canada Cup that year as far as his stats go.

I went with 1978-79 through 1983-84 for Bossy, but I suppose you could go with 1979-80 through 1984-85 instead. I think he was better in 1978-79 than he was in 1984-85. In either scenario, you have to include his "down" year in 1979-80.

View attachment 914216

I'm still taking Lafleur, but it's a lot closer than people might think. It's not like the Islanders were any less relevant than those Montreal teams during their respective runs of 4-straight cup wins.

Lafleur's PPG - 1.66

Dionne - 1.45
Trottier - 1.36
Sittler - 1.28
Perrault - 1.25
(Bossy - 1.36 in under 300 games)

2nd Best Hab - Shutt - 1.08

Bossy's PPG - 1.57

Stastny - 1.57
Dionne - 1.57
Trottier - 1.47
Nilsson - 1.33

Bossy's goalscoring is better but clearly not by the amount that LaFleur's overall offense is superior. Same can be said for the playoffs. LaFleur also wins the "better linemate" argument.

A good question to ask: Is Bossy ever the "Best player in the league" in a Wayne-less world?

Bossy has an incredible 22 year old season but his teammate is even better while Lafleur is still holding court.

79/80 sees Dionne add his name into the fold while Trottier has a very good playoff to compliment a solid regular season.

80/81 sees Bossy enter into the picture with another great goalscoring season and one of the most dominant playoff run all-time (besides Wayne, Mario and Orr).

His peak regular season is 81/82 and should be declared the best player and should hold this title into the 82/83 season and 83/84 season.

A very high six year peak, perhaps the best Non-Big 4 after Lafleur.

 

[daver]

I think when people talk about these six Lafleur seasons, they kind of double count (regular season + playoffs) due to the fact that he played for great teams, and therefore scored a lot in the playoffs, and won four Cups.

How does one determine that one scored a lot of points only because they were on a great team?

Do the Habs win if remove his 87 points and 1.50 PPG from their four Cups?

 

[ESH]

A:"Which player had more goals in their first three seasons?"
B: "One of those guys never scored after year 4."

A legit reply.

Why tailor-make 6 years to Lafleur's great years?

Usually it is 5-year or 7-year or 10-year spans.

If you wanna say: Who was better over a 6-year span than Lafleur then throw the gauntlet down and make your intentions clear!

Otherwise, related comments are common.

What are you even talking about?

How is 7 years any less arbitrary than 6? Because you say so?

 

[Bear of Bad News]

The thread is clearly labeled. If you don't want to discuss the thread topic, the door's thataway.

 

[VanIslander]

How is 7 years any less arbitrary than 6? Because you say so?

Um, it is not less arbitrary. It just has been much more common.

 

[Bear of Bad News]

Um, it is not less arbitrary. It just has been much more common.

No need for you to worry about this.