Grub's Canucks & NHL News, Rumours, and & Fantasy GM | Rumours

[ManVanFan]

I edited my post to address the defense more specifically.

But yes, the timeline for Lekkerimaki and Willander was always going to be outside their short window focus. It seems incongruent with their focus (futures went out for pure rentals last year). Doubling down on that plan would seem foolish now. (I don't think they trade either one)

Back to the Gillis days of having league worst prospect pool. It doesn't feel the same as the Gillis days though.

We know FA though and he's going to want playoffs.

 

[Bojack Horvatman]

Most teams completely out of the playoff race are in the West.

East is packed top to bottom.

I don't think there will be many sellers.

So if the Nucks start falling behind, it may be advantageous to be sellers (to some degree) by the TDL.

Then re-examine in the offseason.

I think we have to seriously look at pulling a Washington no matter where we are in the standings. Trade Boeser and reinvest the assets and cap space on the blueline in the offseason.

 

[ManVanFan]

does your friend of a friend of a neighbour have any crypto tips?

From Tocchet's old teammate, who's working in hockey or from my neighbour? I wouldn't trust either for crypto tips honestly.

 

[arttk]

Do they sell bbqs?

nah they sell houses

still tolling cap, so for those who are asking, why aren't we making trades, need cap first.

 

[bossram]

This is all true, but an opinion that was widely held then and seems true in retrospect is that paying for one or maybe two good, proven defencemen and a having couple of waiver/AHL fill-ins treading water would be more effective than picking up 2-3 defencemen like Desharnais and Forbort that we more or less know can't hang with NHL forwards. I'm not a big fan of Zadorov but he and nearly anyone else would be the best 2nd pairing we've had all season.

I said at the time that I would have rather allocated some combo of the Myers (especially) + Forbort + Desharnais cap dollars into a better defenseman. I will take the L though, I didn't think Allvin's approach was that bad and figured they could muddy along until he was able to make an in-season upgrade (though the various injuries and guys playing through injuries are what largely derailed that plan).

I mean, if Allvin had went out and paid the (very cheap) price for Kovacevic people like myself and @Vector had been talking about for 18 months, the blueline problem would largely have been mitigated.

I said at the time too, I personally would have matched the Leafs obvious LTIRetirement circumvention contract on Tanev to get him back to stabilize the blueline.

But in the end, given what we saw from Soucy last season, I thought Hughes-Hronek-Soucy and whatever else they had would be fine until they could make an in-season trade. It ended up being a lot worse than I thought.

 

[ManVanFan]

nah they sell houses

Nope. How many guesses do you think before you get it right?

 

[Bourne Endeavor]

That's like buying luxury furnitures for a house that is falling apart. The foundation needs fixing, you need to either fix that or replace the foundation before you add to it. Otherwise it is just a waste of asset to add expensive pieces to a house that is falling apart.
No point in adding until you figure out what to do with Miller/Petey/Brock.

I didn't say we should do it right now. Just that I wouldn't mind the trade itself.

Regardless, it's hardly a waste of assets to trade Lekkerimaki+ for Byram. He's an RFA, thus reasonably cost controlled and playing first pairing minutes. He'd be astronomical upgrade on Soucy. Much as I like Lekkerimaki, I'd rather have the established but still young defenseman then hope the winger becomes a top six threat in 2-3 years.

Andersson is who I'd be far more hesitant with, like I said. He's easily getting 8+ once his current deal is up, and will be a UFA. Not to mention, Willander is just an asset I have no real interest trading.

 

[bossram]

That sounds like an even proposition (50%+), instead, of 'threading the needle' (top 10-15%). Allvin not only has to hit, he has to hit high, with quality... And that was always going to be low probability even against bumbling GMs... (Losing out on Guentzel was huge, as an example)

Edit: Sure, the defense was competent last year, but @kanucks25 makes a good point that Zadorov and Cole had good years (per their respective careers). Not something to bank on. This is why they either need quality to offset low ebbs, or change their reliance on DFDs ( change type).

There has to be a philosophy shift here, rather than just getting better DFDs.

Re: the bolded, that is more on Tocc. He simply isn't going to play anyone other than his tree trunks, regardless of who Allvin provides him. They tried emphasizing more rush offense early in the season, and several of Allvin's additions were with that in mind (Debrusk, Sprong, Sherwood), but Tocc immediately abandoned that. I mean, maybe that means they should fire Tocc, but that doesn't seem to be the consensus on the board here.

Yeah, threading the needle on the pro-scouting and getting big surplus value on every transaction was always going to be a tough task. I thought it was too difficult, which is why I was more pro "rebuild" (but not trading Hughes or Petey) when Allvin took over. Given what we know of ownership, Allvin had no choice and threading the needle was his only possible direction. I'd argue now he's proven me largely wrong and done pretty well with that strategy.

 

[Bleach Clean]

Brock + Lekk to Minny for Boldy.

Think the Wild would bite?

Ah Boldy... What could have been.

I remember being excited that they were going to take him in 2019, and then the Podzlovin pick happened... Such is life.

 

[credulous]

My neighbour has friends. One of his friends is an old teammate of Tocchet's. They had talked/met up in town when Van was here I guess. When I was watching the game with my neighbour, he asked me "Pettersson or Miller, who you keeping?" With a grin. Then he mentioned about Tocchet that he had heard that.

tocchet is 60 and has a pretty checkered past. if he quits on a team because they trade his bae he'll probably never get another shot at the nhl level. he needs repeated success in vancouver if he wants to keep coaching

 

[bandwagonesque]

I said at the time that I would have rather allocated some combo of the Myers (especially) + Forbort + Desharnais cap dollars into a better defenseman. I will take the L though, I didn't think Allvin's approach was that bad and figured they could muddy along until he was able to make an in-season upgrade (though the various injuries and guys playing through injuries are what largely derailed that plan).

I mean, if Allvin had went out and paid the (very cheap) price for Kovacevic people like myself and @Vector had been talking about for 18 months, the blueline problem would largely have been mitigated.

I said at the time too, I personally would have matched the Leafs obvious LTIRetirement circumvention contract on Tanev to get him back to stabilize the blueline.

But in the end, given what we saw from Soucy last season, I thought Hughes-Hronek-Soucy and whatever else they had would be fine until they could make an in-season trade. It ended up being a lot worse than I thought.

Yeah, it all comes out to the fact that they gamed all these outcomes, made a decision, and it was the wrong one. I'm sure they recognize that now, which is a good thing and a distinct change from the last management group. I don't mind that they take risks because they are at the same time prepared to mitigate them.

 

[ManVanFan]

tocchet is 60 and has a pretty checkered past. if he quits on a team because they trade his bae he'll probably never get another shot at the nhl level. he needs repeated success in vancouver if he wants to keep coaching

I don't know what his plan would be. His contract is up at years end, ride it out then looks for another opportunity or goes back to television.

I don't think management would trade Miller in season but who knows.

 

[kanucks25]

I said at the time that I would have rather allocated some combo of the Myers (especially) + Forbort + Desharnais cap dollars into a better defenseman. I will take the L though, I didn't think Allvin's approach was that bad and figured they could muddy along until he was able to make an in-season upgrade (though the various injuries and guys playing through injuries are what largely derailed that plan).

I mean, if Allvin had went out and paid the (very cheap) price for Kovacevic people like myself and @Vector had been talking about for 18 months, the blueline problem would largely have been mitigated.

I honestly wonder how much Kovacevic was shopped around. It kind of feels like a trade where NJD just inquired and matched MTL's asking price and it got done.

You'd think there would be some teams out there that would have offered more than a deferred 4th assuming they had him scouted / liked his underlyings which had to be the case for at least some teams.

Just based on his size you would assume the Canucks would be interested. It'd really suck if they deliberately chose Desharnais (and that contract) over him.

 

[bossram]

I honestly wonder how much Kovacevic was shopped around. It kind of feels like a trade where NJD just inquired and matched MTL's asking price and it got done.

You'd think there would be some teams out there that would have offered more than a deferred 4th assuming they had him scouted / liked his underlyings which had to be the case for at least some teams.

Just based on his size you would assume the Canucks would be interested. It'd really suck if they deliberately chose Desharnais (and that contract) over him.

That no other teams inquired or tried to beat the Devils' offer just confirms my and @Vector's hypothesis that a lot of GMs just do a lot of dumb crap, if not are just bumbling idiots themselves.

 

[Bleach Clean]

Re: the bolded, that is more on Tocc. He simply isn't going to play anyone other than his tree trunks, regardless of who Allvin provides him. They tried emphasizing more rush offense early in the season, and several of Allvin's additions were with that in mind (Debrusk, Sprong, Sherwood), but Tocc immediately abandoned that. I mean, maybe that means they should fire Tocc, but that doesn't seem to be the consensus on the board here.

Yeah, threading the needle on the pro-scouting and getting big surplus value on every transaction was always going to be a tough task. I thought it was too difficult, which is why I was more pro "rebuild" (but not trading Hughes or Petey) when Allvin took over. Given what we know of ownership, Allvin had no choice and threading the needle was his only possible direction. I'd argue now he's proven me largely wrong and done pretty well with that strategy.

They're not a contender. You were proven right, not wrong.

Remember, we're talking about Allvin having to thread the needle, doing it better than expected, and still having a team on the bubble and sliding down. That despite his competence, he hasn't been able to break the glass ceiling slow re-toolers said would be there.

Regardless, I don't think there is this distinct separation in philosophy between Tocchet and Allvin. Last year, they signed Cole (DFD) and traded for Zadorov (DFD). They drafted Willander (2WD/DFD), which while not a tree, is not the ceiling pick that Lekkerimaki represented. Allvin also signed Forbort, Desharnhais and brought Juulsen back... The templates are different for forwards and defense.

 

[Hodgy]

Re: the bolded, that is more on Tocc. He simply isn't going to play anyone other than his tree trunks, regardless of who Allvin provides him. They tried emphasizing more rush offense early in the season, and several of Allvin's additions were with that in mind (Debrusk, Sprong, Sherwood), but Tocc immediately abandoned that. I mean, maybe that means they should fire Tocc, but that doesn't seem to be the consensus on the board here.

Yeah, threading the needle on the pro-scouting and getting big surplus value on every transaction was always going to be a tough task. I thought it was too difficult, which is why I was more pro "rebuild" (but not trading Hughes or Petey) when Allvin took over. Given what we know of ownership, Allvin had no choice and threading the needle was his only possible direction. I'd argue now he's proven me largely wrong and done pretty well with that strategy.

In terms of criticizing / evaluating Allvin, ownership is kind of at the crux of it. Because, I think, in some respect, you can say that Alvin sold ownership on the compete now! / quick retool plan, and that because of this, they should be judged based on their success of implementing that plan. But ultimately, there was probably never any realistic scenario where ownership didn't hire management to to a quick retool, and in that sense, there probably was no alternative to the plan Allvin picked. Because if ownership was willing to consider a true rebuild, then you would have expected that to happen during the early Benning years.

So when evaluating Allvin, you kind of have to assume the baseline is failure since these retools on the fly typically do fail and require management to thread the needle. So, while we can still evaluate and criticize management on each transaction they make, the reality is, the compete now plan was also likely to fail, and the fact that Allvin got within one game of the Western Conference finals is probably more success than was every likely with the compete now plan.

 

[arttk]

Nope. How many guesses do you think before you get it right?

seems like you are not aware of the never ending joke around this

 

[Hodgy]

They're not a contender. You were proven right, not wrong.

Remember, we're talking about Allvin having to thread the needle, doing it better than expected, and still having a team on the bubble and sliding down. That despite his competence, he hasn't been able to break the glass ceiling slow re-toolers said would be there.

Regardless, I don't think there is this distinct separation in philosophy between Tocchet and Allvin. Last year, they signed Cole (DFD) and traded for Zadorov (DFD). They drafted Willander (2WD/DFD), which while not a tree, is not the ceiling pick that Lekkerimaki represented. Allvin also signed Forbort, Desharnhais and brought Juulsen back... The templates are different for forwards and defense.

I think you are wrong in that last season was a great success for Allvin in the context of trying to execute a retool on the fly type mandate. Getting within one game of the Western Conference finals, with your Vezina caliber franchise goalie out, was an incredible success. Most of these type of retools just fail, and the success Allvin has already had is more than you'd typically expect.

And I, like both of you, were in the rebuild camp.

 

[Bleach Clean]

My neighbour has friends. One of his friends is an old teammate of Tocchet's. They had talked/met up in town when Van was here I guess. When I was watching the game with my neighbour, he asked me "Pettersson or Miller, who you keeping?" With a grin. Then he mentioned about Tocchet that he had heard that.

Before Miller left the team and rumours surfaced about the team/coach/managers being frustrated by the situation, I could see Tocchet being fully aligned with Miller. Post LOA, there was some doubt. On balance though, it makes sense. Tocchet clearly loves the way Miller plays the game and devalues the way Pettersson plays the game. It's no surprise to me.

That said, if he wants to hitch his wagon, let him walk if Miller is traded.

 

[Bleach Clean]

I think you are wrong in that last season was a great success for Allvin in the context of trying to execute a retool on the fly type mandate. Getting within one game of the Western Conference finals, with your Vezina caliber franchise goalie out, was an incredible success. Most of these type of retools just fail, and the success Allvin has already had is more than you'd typically expect.

And I, like both of you, were in the rebuild camp.

I don't recall you being in the rebuild camp, but again, I haven't finished reading through all of the older posts.

The success/fail marker was a legit contender with a few kicks at the can. Not a one year blip where everything broke right.

That Allvin's had that 1 year success though is a testament to him, but it in no way belies the reality of the true talent strength of this team. Most of these on the fly re-tools fail, yes.

 

[ManVanFan]

seems like you are not aware of the never ending joke around this

I am definitely am aware of it. I am a jolly guy, I'm just messing around. I've got a dry sense of humour.

Used to be a poster named "Scooby" hair dresser in another forum.

 

[Just A Bit Outside]

Crazy Rachel proposing a potential fit between Van and NJ. Boeser for a deal based on one of NJ's blue chip dmen:

Which top NHL prospects could be traded before the deadline? A guide to contenders' plans

With the March 7 deadline approaching, keep an eye on these names to get bubbled up in trade rumors -- because they could be moved in a blockbuster.

www.espn.com

 

[Hodgy]

I don't recall you being in the rebuild camp, but again, I haven't finished reading through all of the older posts.

The success/fail marker was a legit contender with a few kicks at the can. Not a one year blip where everything broke right.

That Allvin's had that 1 year success though is a testament to him, but it in no way belies the reality of the true talent strength of this team. Most of these on the fly re-tools fail, yes.

Why is the bolded the "success/fail" marker? This doesn't make much sense when you consider that, on a balance of probabilities, retools on the fly are likely to fail. Slow rebuilds are always going to be more likely to bring success since the NHL awards failure and gives you high draft picks, and you can weaponize cap space. If you want to pick arbitrary percentages, you could characterizes this as a rebuild having a 70% chance of "success" while retools have a 30% chance of "success".

Seen through that lense, I think your success/fail marker is far too high, and probably represents like a 90% + or 95% + percentile of success. I think Allvin, with the success he has already had, has probably already hit the 80% percentile marker, or around that, which is obviously quite good.

 

[ManVanFan]

Before Miller left the team and rumours surfaced about the team/coach/managers being frustrated by the situation, I could see Tocchet being fully aligned with Miller. Post LOA, there was some doubt. On balance though, it makes sense. Tocchet clearly loves the way Miller plays the game and devalues the way Pettersson plays the game. It's no surprise to me.

That said, if he wants to hitch his wagon, let him walk if Miller is traded.

It seems pretty obvious to most, like you said you could see it. I'm sure when Tocchet and my neighbours friend were talking, it was probably just a lot of bullshitting thanks to the ongoing saga.

Crazy how things went from promising last year to this shit show. Does remind me of the Benning days. You've got 9M to spend and Tanev, Toffoli, Markstrom to make decisions on and somehow end up with Schmidt, Virtanen.

If the Canucks were better at drafting and developing, they could probably prioritize quality over quantity.

 

[bossram]

They're not a contender. You were proven right, not wrong.

Remember, we're talking about Allvin having to thread the needle, doing it better than expected, and still having a team on the bubble and sliding down. That despite his competence, he hasn't been able to break the glass ceiling slow re-toolers said would be there.

Regardless, I don't think there is this distinct separation in philosophy between Tocchet and Allvin. Last year, they signed Cole (DFD) and traded for Zadorov (DFD). They drafted Willander (2WD/DFD), which while not a tree, is not the ceiling pick that Lekkerimaki represented. Allvin also signed Forbort, Desharnhais and brought Juulsen back... The templates are different for forwards and defense.

I didn't think they were a true contender in the first place.

Allvin brought them back to "competitiveness" (i.e. make the playoffs and maybe do some damage if everything breaks right), which was his mandate. Last season everything broke right. This season, it is not.

There was a lot of talk from Tocc and Allvin in the offseason about knowing they need to change their style of play and create more offense, especially on the rush. They attempted to do that at the very beginning of the season and it was quickly abandoned. Tocc wants the team to play a certain style and there is no flexibility on it.