Gretzky's Difficulties In Scoring Goals Against Good Defenses, After The Mid-1980s.

[Randyne]

In the 80s goalies played almost naked, highlights from that era are not worthy even for amateur hockey.

 

[tabness]

For a contemporaneous take on the significant improvement of the league throughout the eighties leading to Gretzky's margin of dominance waning (on top of the wear and tear of his career thusfar) see his own entry in the Hockey Scouting Report after 1989-1990

 

[Crosby2010]

In the 80s goalies played almost naked, highlights from that era are not worthy even for amateur hockey.

So can you name the other players that scored 90+ goals in a season then? Because it ought to have been plenty. Or even 80. Or 70. Even Bossy never cracked 70. Gretzky scored at a ridiculous level and it is funny because he tends to get penalized for not doing it at that level for a longer period of time. He is the only player in NHL history to do this at that level and the argument against him is that eventually he didn't do it at that level.

 

[Staniowski]

So can you name the other players that scored 90+ goals in a season then? Because it ought to have been plenty. Or even 80. Or 70. Even Bossy never cracked 70. Gretzky scored at a ridiculous level and it is funny because he tends to get penalized for not doing it at that level for a longer period of time. He is the only player in NHL history to do this at that level and the argument against him is that eventually he didn't do it at that level.

The argument against Gretzky, and the reality, is that Gretzky could only score 90 goals (or anything close) in a very small window or years, which also happened to coincide with his best scoring years.

If he were 5 or more years younger, he wouldn't have come close to ever scoring 90 goals, and very likely would never have led the NHL in goals in any season. He obviously also would've faced better competition among goal-scorers if he were a few years younger.

 

[Staniowski]

Did this knee injury take place before or after the 1987 Canada Cup?

After the Canada Cup. It took place Dec 30th, 1987, and it wasn't a big factor on his goal-scoring in the big scheme of things. As was evident in the Canada Cup, he wasn't close to being hockey's best goal-scorer during those years.

 

[Staniowski]

I have always trusted what I saw with my own eyes. The main reason I believe Gretzky did not appear as good as Lemieux is simply because he wasn’t. He was more dominant against an inferior league and far more healthy. I don’t think there’s any chance prime Gretzky outscores a prime Lemieux in post 1995 NHL, goals or points.

Yes, that's definitely true. Lemieux was a much better goal-scorer than Gretzky, but also a better overall scorer.

Gretzky has a lot of fans, and many of them will never admit it...but it's true. Gretzky scored in a weaker league, and he didn't scored as well as Lemieux did in a stronger league. It's there for all to see.

 

[Crosby2010]

After the Canada Cup. It took place Dec 30th, 1987, and it wasn't a big factor on his goal-scoring in the big scheme of things. As was evident in the Canada Cup, he wasn't close to being hockey's best goal-scorer during those years.

Yet in 1987 he scored 62 goals and led the NHL in goals for the 5th time. I'm puzzled. The proof seems to be right in the pudding.

The argument against Gretzky, and the reality, is that Gretzky could only score 90 goals (or anything close) in a very small window or years, which also happened to coincide with his best scoring years.

If he were 5 or more years younger, he wouldn't have come close to ever scoring 90 goals, and very likely would never have led the NHL in goals in any season. He obviously also would've faced better competition among goal-scorers if he were a few years younger.

So if he was born in 1956 instead of 1961 he never hits 92 goals? He could only do it in the early 1980s? I'm sorry, but I just don't get this at all. Blaine Stoughton scored 56 goals in 1980 and led the NHL. Gretzky is 23-24 years old at this time in an alternate universe and you figure he can't do any better? In fact, in 1980 Gretzky is 18 and scored 51 himself. That's the thing with peaking so high like Gretzky did, you have to come down a lot harder than even a normal superstar. My question is, considering he is the only person to ever hit the goal totals in the history of the NHL that he did, and since he create his own standard for doing it, how long would you have wanted him to score those gaudy goal totals? There is a reason no one else did it.

 

[MadLuke]

So if he was born in 1956 instead of 1961 he never hits 92 goals?

you just made him 5 years older not younger

Yet in 1987 he scored 62 goals and led the NHL in goals for the 5th time. I'm puzzled

Does this support that it did not affected his goalscoring very much or goes against that statement, did scoring 62 goes against the notion he could not score 80-90 goals in that league anymore ?

I feel a lot of people talk over each other, Gretzky can still win the Rocket even if he would have much harder time scoring, declined from quite the peak.

1987, goals per games:
Lemieux: .86
Gretzky: .78
Kerr: .77

 

[Crosby2010]

you just made him 5 years older not younger

Fair enough. That being said Hull scored 86 goals in 1991 at 26 years old. Nicholls 70 in 1989. Yzerman 65 and then 62 in back to back years. Actually, Hull three years in a row had at least 70. My question is why couldn't a younger Gretzky have done this?

Does this support that it did not affected his goalscoring very much or goes against that statement, did scoring 62 goes against the notion he could not score 80-90 goals in that league anymore ?

I feel a lot of people talk over each other, Gretzky can still win the Rocket even if he would have much harder time scoring, declined from quite the peak.

1987, goals per games:
Lemieux: .86
Gretzky: .78
Kerr: .77

And he had more assists in 1987 than anyone else had points. I mean, do we really think that the 121 assists he got couldn't have turned into goals if he wanted to emphasize it more? We can see this in his shot totals. They were a lot higher in the early to mid 1980s. Then even in 1987 he was just 3rd. Then 6th in 1989. Then never in the top 10 again. He shot less, should we really be surprised that he scored less too?

 

[MadLuke]

My question is why couldn't a younger Gretzky have done this?

This is the whole thread and OP point he is trying to made, better defense taken away one of Gretzky favored way to score goals, very number of high chance from good spot on the ice shots he was able to get by the hundreds in a more open less good defense league.

That one theory why his goalscoring declined, others could be lost a quickstep (and will to pay the price) to get those chance versus before, getting more perimeter-playmaker and so on. (like you say abou that 121 assists comments).

He shot less, should we really be surprised that he scored less too?

Shooting less and scoring less can be saying the same thing, did he shoot less because defense did not gave him those nice scoring chance as much as before ? or for some other reasons. Gretzky taken 18% shoot was one of the best play in hockey history, changing that strategy without being forced is not necessarily a good one.

Imo goalscoring peaking before 25 is nothing special and does not require much explanation, Ovechkin "decline" was not necessarily the league getting better defensively or Yzerman decline around the exact same age.

 

[Crosby2010]

This is the whole thread and OP point he is trying to made, better defense taken away one of Gretzky favored way to score goals, very number of high chance from good spot on the ice shots he was able to get by the hundreds in a more open less good defense league.

That one theory why his goalscoring declined, others could be lost a quickstep (and will to pay the price) to get those chance versus before, getting more perimeter-playmaker and so on. (like you say abou that 121 assists comments).


Shooting less and scoring less can be saying the same thing, did he shoot less because defense did not gave him those nice scoring chance as much as before ? or for some other reasons. Gretzky taken 18% shoot was one of the best play in hockey history, changing that strategy without being forced is not necessarily a good one.

Imo goalscoring peaking before 25 is nothing special and does not require much explanation, Ovechkin "decline" was not necessarily the league getting better defensively or Yzerman decline around the exact same age.

I am of the thought that other than Ovechkin pretty much everyone's goal scoring declined after their 20s. Ovechkin is the rare breed of player who could score 50 goals regularly in his 30s. Esposito comes to mind as well I guess and Mario certainly could too although he retired in 1997 the first time. But in my mind it is a young man's game, Gretzky was not immune to this and I think this is partly why he focused on playmaking while still being a good goal scorer just not the best in the game. I think you judge yourself by your peers at the time. And it isn't as if anyone else was doing what he was doing in the first few years of his career. Not even Bossy.