Greig annihilates Ristolainen

[robsenz]

View attachment 808983

thanks, I was coming back here to address this as well

 

[HTFN]

Umm, most of hockey players when throwing a big hit? Seriously, go look at any huge hit compilation on youtube and they do exactly what you’re describing it in vast majority of them.

What is a wild take, is that you think someone can jump while having a foot on the ground, like wtf?

Because of the jumping motion and the upward trajectory of the player…. Let’s talk about the NFL again, and not just because it was basically a diving tackle. We can pretty easily define a throw by causing an object to travel a distance propelled by the hand/arm, yet the NFL doesn’t require the quarterback to release the ball before they are granted throwing status. Commitment to the action matters, and so they changed the rule of what constitutes a “throw” even though it’s certainly not the dictionary definition of the action.

I really didn’t think this should be this complicated, but you’re here saying “well the QB's fingertips are all on the ball so it's not really a throw yet by definition" even though everything about his body language is wrong for modern day open ice hits.

It’s not the motion of a regular hit at all, maybe you should show me some more like it?

 

[OKR]

Because of the jumping motion and the upward trajectory of the player…. Let’s talk about the NFL again, and not just because it was basically a diving tackle. We can pretty easily define a throw by causing an object to travel a distance propelled by the hand/arm, yet the NFL doesn’t require the quarterback to release the ball before they are granted throwing status. Commitment to the action matters, and so they changed the rule of what constitutes a “throw” even though it’s certainly not the dictionary definition of the action.

I really didn’t think this should be this complicated, but you’re here saying “well the QB's fingertips are all on the ball so it's not really a throw yet by definition" even though everything about his body language is wrong for modern day open ice hits.

It’s not the motion of a regular hit at all, maybe you should show me some more like it?

You’re f***ing kidding right? There is no jumping motion, you physically can’t jump without both foot leaving the ice, it’s literally impossible.

”I really didn’t think this should be this complicated”

It really isn’t, you just want to penalize a player for a hit that is clean, because it’s too hard of a hit to your liking.

Upwards trajectory isn’t prohibited unless making head contact, literally happens all the time when smaller players hit bigger players.

Just from last october:
Pettersson hit on Ceci and Orlov hit on Joseph etc.

Not exactly the same hits obviously, but fit every part of your describtion about why this should be a penalty in your opinion, only one foot on the ice, leaning forward and upwards trajectory.

Just go watch any hit compilation and you’ll see multiple hits like that.

 

[umma gumma]

Xhekaj sent up just in time to destroy knuckleheads like this guy. Sens must be quaking.

See you tonight.

 

[jbeck5]

Thats a good comparison, he's more calculated with his physicality but dont think he has as elite a motor. He's more of a play maker than a scorer. But yeah he's also stylistically similar to Kadri. I think he;s better at center. Its only a matter of time before he moves to the middle and Norris to the wing.

I see him as a peca/Tucker kind of hybrid. Small but hard nosed and goes for big hits and can play center or wing and should put up 40-60 points regularly.

The sens must be shaking in their boots because the habs called up some big slow minor leaguer...oh wait.

 

[Golden_Jet]

Because of the jumping motion and the upward trajectory of the player…. Let’s talk about the NFL again, and not just because it was basically a diving tackle. We can pretty easily define a throw by causing an object to travel a distance propelled by the hand/arm, yet the NFL doesn’t require the quarterback to release the ball before they are granted throwing status. Commitment to the action matters, and so they changed the rule of what constitutes a “throw” even though it’s certainly not the dictionary definition of the action.

I really didn’t think this should be this complicated, but you’re here saying “well the QB's fingertips are all on the ball so it's not really a throw yet by definition" even though everything about his body language is wrong for modern day open ice hits.

It’s not the motion of a regular hit at all, maybe you should show me some more like it?

Lmao with the QB, NFL stuff, has absolutely zero bearing or meaning to this.
Appreciate the chuckle though. This is a parody post right, I hope?

 

[jbeck5]

Man people are grasping at straws to try to come up with a penalty because they don't like big hits

"He jumped"

*No evidence of him leaving both his feet*

"He charged"

*Evidence shows the target just recieved the puck*

"But in football..."

*This is hockey*

At what point do you give up?

 

[luiginb]

If you have to freeze frame one millisecond before to see if it was an illegal hit it's not an illegal hit. The human eye doesn't have that advantage.

 

[coolboarder]

Clean upon after watching the replay frame by frame. I am not a fan of big hits but gotta say that it was clean. Good for them not resort to fighting after the fact. No ill intention to injure someone.

 

[redandyellowcametobe]

How are there people on a hockey forum that don't understand you're allowed to explode upwards into a hit? As long as you don't leave your feet before contact is made then it's perfectly legal.

Great solid hit.

How are there people on a hockey forum that think they understand while simultaneously not really understanding what the heck they are talking about.

Not a fan of either team but this just isn’t true at all. You can’t explode upwards / outwards changing the angle of the actual hit or approach if you make head contact. The video is hard to tell but it seems he does here. The leaving the feet is just one component to many factors. I suggest reading the rules before you pretend you know it all more than the next human. It’s literally, like written down.

edit : i now see others have told you the same.

 

[Golden_Jet]

How are there people on a hockey forum that think they understand while simultaneously not really understanding what the heck they are talking about.

Not a fan of either team but this just isn’t true at all. You can’t explode upwards / outwards changing the angle of the actual hit or approach if you make head contact. The video is hard to tell but it seems he does here. The leaving the feet is just one component to many factors. I suggest reading the rules before you pretend you know it all more than the next human. It’s literally, like written down.

edit : i now see others have told you the same.

It’s been determined there is no head contact, everyone in here agrees on that, and there is a skate on the ice.

 

[Kegu]

How are there people on a hockey forum that think they understand while simultaneously not really understanding what the heck they are talking about.

Not a fan of either team but this just isn’t true at all. You can’t explode upwards / outwards changing the angle of the actual hit or approach if you make head contact. The video is hard to tell but it seems he does here. The leaving the feet is just one component to many factors. I suggest reading the rules before you pretend you know it all more than the next human. It’s literally, like written down.

edit : i now see others have told you the same.

What head contact? What leaving the feet?

 

[HTFN]

Lmao with the QB, NFL stuff, has absolutely zero bearing or meaning to this.
Appreciate the chuckle though. This is a parody post right, I hope?

It 100% does, I can explain it to you again if you're not understanding: we should be defining a jump by the motion, not whether the player technically still had contact with the ice. Just like a "throw" begins before release, I'm of the opinion that a "jump" begins before ground clearance, much like how the QB being free of the ball isn't the moment a "throw" starts. Leagues have the ability to define "throw" and "jump" as they pertain to the sport

You’re f***ing kidding right? There is no jumping motion, you physically can’t jump without both foot leaving the ice, it’s literally impossible.

”I really didn’t think this should be this complicated”

It really isn’t, you just want to penalize a player for a hit that is clean, because it’s too hard of a hit to your liking.

Upwards trajectory isn’t prohibited unless making head contact, literally happens all the time when smaller players hit bigger players.

Just from last october:
Pettersson hit on Ceci and Orlov hit on Joseph etc.

Not exactly the same hits obviously, but fit every part of your describtion about why this should be a penalty in your opinion, only one foot on the ice, leaning forward and upwards trajectory.

Just go watch any hit compilation and you’ll see multiple hits like that.

First example I checked since it was Orlov and I knew him and how he hits was... a hip check. Are you f***ing kidding? Basically no upper body involved, players moving same direction, strong plant leg, and again it was a hip check so... not worth discussing as a comparable.

Pettersson was actually closer, but much less vertical and dramatic with his arms tucked. Looks like he's trying to hit through the chest without knocking knees but he absolutely just kind of chucks himself from his feet. I took some stills but when you watch the clip Pettersson's feet basically never get closer to Ceci than his own stick blade, he just leaves his feet behind and becomes a 45 degree angle:

There are essentially the two moments of impact, one at around the time the bodies touch and the other around the time Ceci's body actually starts to buckle and move backwards. In frame by frame I'd call this a jump, though in real time it was harder to catch and just looked off for a second. That's why I've been saying like the whole time that jumping should be a discretionary call and not completely linked to whether one skate is touching, so that officials can decide case by case without having to figure out whether they can technically use the word when something doesn't look right.

So yeah, it's not as bad but it does meet a lot of my criteria on how I prefer the rule to be understood. I feel like you expected me to say "good hit", or maybe you see this as a good hit and we're just not going to agree, but really I hope this helps you understand what I'm saying without color blinders.

 

[Golden_Jet]

It 100% does, I can explain it to you again if you're not understanding: we should be defining a jump by the motion, not whether the player technically still had contact with the ice. Just like a "throw" begins before release, I'm of the opinion that a "jump" begins before ground clearance, much like how the QB being free of the ball isn't the moment a "throw" starts. Leagues have the ability to define "throw" and "jump" as they pertain to the sport

First example I checked since it was Orlov and I knew him and how he hits was... a hip check. Are you f***ing kidding? Basically no upper body involved, players moving same direction, strong plant leg, and again it was a hip check so... not worth discussing as a comparable.

Pettersson was actually closer, but much less vertical and dramatic with his arms tucked. Looks like he's trying to hit through the chest without knocking knees but he absolutely just kind of chucks himself from his feet. I took some stills but when you watch the clip Pettersson's feet basically never get closer to Ceci than his own stick blade, he just leaves his feet behind and becomes a 45 degree angle:
View attachment 809503View attachment 809506

There are essentially the two moments of impact, one at around the time the bodies touch and the other around the time Ceci's body actually starts to buckle and move backwards. In frame by frame I'd call this a jump, though in real time it was harder to catch and just looked off for a second. That's why I've been saying like the whole time that jumping should be a discretionary call and not completely linked to whether one skate is touching, so that officials can decide case by case without having to figure out whether they can technically use the word when something doesn't look right.

So yeah, it's not as bad but it does meet a lot of my criteria on how I prefer the rule to be understood. I feel like you expected me to say "good hit", or maybe you see this as a good hit and we're just not going to agree, but really I hope this helps you understand what I'm saying without color blinders.

Yep it’s a good clean hit. Football stuff is still hilarious to read about.

 

[jbeck5]

How are there people on a hockey forum that think they understand while simultaneously not really understanding what the heck they are talking about.

Not a fan of either team but this just isn’t true at all. You can’t explode upwards / outwards changing the angle of the actual hit or approach if you make head contact. The video is hard to tell but it seems he does here. The leaving the feet is just one component to many factors. I suggest reading the rules before you pretend you know it all more than the next human. It’s literally, like written down.

edit : i now see others have told you the same.

There's no head contact...

Maybe that's why it's falling on deaf ears...because your point is irrelevant.

It 100% does, I can explain it to you again if you're not understanding: we should be defining a jump by the motion, not whether the player technically still had contact with the ice. Just like a "throw" begins before release, I'm of the opinion that a "jump" begins before ground clearance, much like how the QB being free of the ball isn't the moment a "throw" starts. Leagues have the ability to define "throw" and "jump" as they pertain to the sport

First example I checked since it was Orlov and I knew him and how he hits was... a hip check. Are you f***ing kidding? Basically no upper body involved, players moving same direction, strong plant leg, and again it was a hip check so... not worth discussing as a comparable.

Pettersson was actually closer, but much less vertical and dramatic with his arms tucked. Looks like he's trying to hit through the chest without knocking knees but he absolutely just kind of chucks himself from his feet. I took some stills but when you watch the clip Pettersson's feet basically never get closer to Ceci than his own stick blade, he just leaves his feet behind and becomes a 45 degree angle:
View attachment 809503View attachment 809506

There are essentially the two moments of impact, one at around the time the bodies touch and the other around the time Ceci's body actually starts to buckle and move backwards. In frame by frame I'd call this a jump, though in real time it was harder to catch and just looked off for a second. That's why I've been saying like the whole time that jumping should be a discretionary call and not completely linked to whether one skate is touching, so that officials can decide case by case without having to figure out whether they can technically use the word when something doesn't look right.

So yeah, it's not as bad but it does meet a lot of my criteria on how I prefer the rule to be understood. I feel like you expected me to say "good hit", or maybe you see this as a good hit and we're just not going to agree, but really I hope this helps you understand what I'm saying without color blinders.

So compare that picture to the Greig hit side by side...

Not that it matters, since there's no rule about what maximum angle you're allowed to have your body at when making a hit.

What is the point of your exercise of how much a player is leaning forward when delivering a hit if there's nothing in the rules limiting how far a player can lean forward?

What a futile exercise.

This board sometimes...I swear man.

 

[OKR]

——

The Orlov hit was just example of player hitting ”face first and leg off the ground” you asked who hit’s like that and i gave you two examples from this season alone , they were never intended to be similar hit as this. Fact is every hit is unique, there is not going to be two identical hits due to multiple factors.


YOU CAN’T GIVE A CHARGING PENALTY FOR A HIT THAT DOESN’T MATCH ANY CRITERIA OF CHARGING!!

Seriously, how are you still not getting that? Maybe stick to NFL

You didn’t like the hit, because it was too hard, that’s perfectly fine. But every rulebook in the world has it as 100% clean hit.

Also not a Sens fan, so stop with the color blinders shit.

 

[HTFN]

Yep it’s a good clean hit. Football stuff is still hilarious to read about.

Got it, you can't handle abstract thought.

So compare that picture to the Greig hit side by side...

Not that it matters, since there's no rule about what maximum angle you're allowed to have your body at when making a hit.

What is the point of your exercise of how much a player is leaning forward when delivering a hit if there's nothing in the rules limiting how far a player can lean forward?

What a futile exercise.

This board sometimes...I swear man.

And find that Greig is doing the same thing but worse? Then realize that I called them both jumping and learned... basically nothing?

The real futile exercise is explaining as many times as I have that the current rule is written inadequately, and there's no good way to re-define it without making things very complicated and the best route is to allow referees to broaden the scope of what a "jump" is... and then having some other knob come in and go "there's no rule against it".

 

[jbeck5]

Got it, you can't handle abstract thought.

And find that Greig is doing the same thing but worse? Then realize that I called them both jumping and learned... basically nothing?

The real futile exercise is explaining as many times as I have that the current rule is written inadequately, and there's no good way to re-define it without making things very complicated and the best route is to allow referees to broaden the scope of what a "jump" is... and then having some other knob come in and go "there's no rule against it".

You should learn that jumping requires both feet to be off the ground. There's that much.

Have you learned that yet?

If I reach by standing on one tippy toe to replace a lightbulb, have I jumped?


So you don't like the rules the way they're written so you're trying to come up with a new way to write the rules but you can't because it's too difficult?

Why don't you just accept the rules the way they're written and get on board with this being a clean hit in hockey?

You're allowed to lean forward into a hit as much as your little heart desires. Why is that a problem for you?

 

[HTFN]

The Orlov hit was just example of player hitting ”face first and leg off the ground” you asked who hit’s like that and i gave you two examples from this season alone , they were never intended to be similar hit as this. Fact is every hit is unique, there is not going to be two identical hits due to multiple factors.


YOU CAN’T GIVE A CHARGING PENALTY FOR A HIT THAT DOESN’T MATCH ANY CRITERIA OF CHARGING!!

Seriously, how are you still not getting that? Maybe stick to NFL

You didn’t like the hit, because it was too hard, that’s perfectly fine. But every rulebook in the world has it as 100% clean hit.

Also not a Sens fan, so stop with the color blinders shit.

The Orlov example was literally nothing. I asked you to show me something where a player would throw himself forward into a player who is skating towards him. Now let's talk about that Pettersson hit, I did some work to explain to you why you're right but not in the way you wanted to be.

f*** me, read at all instead of getting so personally upset. You think I didn't like the hit because it's "too hard" then tell me to stick to the NFL? The sport where plays all end in hits and it seems like a player is done for the season every week? I don't give a shit about hitting or people getting absolutely blasted, I said one thing about how "jumping" should maybe not be so rigidly defined by loose skate contact and got a bunch of really f***ing stupid arguments about how it's literally impossible to define a jump until clearance. That's stupid. I have to hope that we both know, deep down, that that's a stupid thing to say.

I didn't say they should even give Greig a penalty because I know that I'm using an interpretation the league is not. What are you even arguing?

 

[HTFN]

You should learn that jumping requires both feet to be off the ground. There's that much.

Have you learned that yet?

If I reach by standing on one tippy toe to replace a lightbulb, have I jumped?


So you don't like the rules the way they're written so you're trying to come up with a new way to write the rules but you can't because it's too difficult?

Why don't you just accept the rules the way they're written and get on board with this being a clean hit in hockey?

You're allowed to lean forward into a hit as much as your little heart desires. Why is that a problem for you?

There it is. So f***ing stupid. Would you call yourself "jumping" or "reaching"? They're different actions requiring different muscles and you know which one you're doing well before your feet leave the ground. If you stand on your tippy toe and then I shove you into the air did you "jump"? If you're in the process of jumping and I shove you straight to the ground, were you never jumping?

I don't accept it the way it is because the NHL isn't a place for NFL tackles. I want to see hip checks, I don't want to see defensemen throwing themselves towards players going wide like missiles because the game is played on ice with walls at the end and that's dangerous as shit. It's not only dangerous when you succeed (as all hits are) but also when you miss, since your odds of going whizzing into other players/skates/sticks is a lot higher if you're out of control and your legs aren't under you. And frankly, I didn't really care either way and was just sort of saying this because it bugs me... until the same stupid argument kept coming up.

I tried to do some research on the origin of the charging penalty and came up with blanks, but this is a game with a lot of tough assholes and a lot of history. I'm not convinced that "jumping" wasn't initially about throwing yourself into opponents without control to make disruptive contact and much less about coming down on them like a professional wrestler.

 

[OKR]

The Orlov example was literally nothing. I asked you to show me something where a player would throw himself forward into a player who is skating towards him. Now let's talk about that Pettersson hit, I did some work to explain to you why you're right but not in the way you wanted to be.

f*** me, read at all instead of getting so personally upset. You think I didn't like the hit because it's "too hard" then tell me to stick to the NFL? The sport where plays all end in hits and it seems like a player is done for the season every week? I don't give a shit about hitting or people getting absolutely blasted, I said one thing about how "jumping" should maybe not be so rigidly defined by loose skate contact and got a bunch of really f***ing stupid arguments about how it's literally impossible to define a jump until clearance. That's stupid. I have to hope that we both know, deep down, that that's a stupid thing to say.

I didn't say they should even give Greig a penalty because I know that I'm using an interpretation the league is not. What are you even arguing?

Yeah, it’s literally everyone else that’s stupid and wrong, never you. You’re incapable of making any good points, because your argument is literally that stupid that they don’t exist.

I’m done, you’re helpless and extremely obnoxious so it’s just waste of everyone’s time.

 

[Fearnot]

What head contact? What leaving the feet?

Worst avatar ever.

 

[HTFN]

Yeah, it’s literally everyone else that’s stupid and wrong, never you. You’re incapable of making any good points, because your argument is literally that stupid that they don’t exist.

I’m done, you’re helpless and extremely obnoxious so it’s just waste of everyone’s time.

Lol I just wanted you to approach this earnestly instead of trying for these hyperbolic personal assumptions, but I guess that's too much.

I'm explaining my opinion on a rule. Do you know many people who believe their own opinion to be false and just keep saying it anyway for fun that aren't just trolling? You haven't touched a single thing I said, you just kept plugging your ears going "no, no, no, look here's the same rules again" when what is currently written and enforced has never been a point of contention.

 

[Golden_Jet]

Got it, you can't handle abstract thought.

And find that Greig is doing the same thing but worse? Then realize that I called them both jumping and learned... basically nothing?

The real futile exercise is explaining as many times as I have that the current rule is written inadequately, and there's no good way to re-define it without making things very complicated and the best route is to allow referees to broaden the scope of what a "jump" is... and then having some other knob come in and go "there's no rule against it".

Paste or write the rule you’re referring to, that might help, eg rule 29.4.1. That’s not written well.

 

[HTFN]

Paste or write the rule you’re referring to, that might help, eg rule 29.4.1. That’s not written well.

Do you need the charging rule posted again in this thread? I supposed I could find some other discretionary penalty, because that's the only addition to the rule that would need writing.

Like, we can either parse it out in minute detail (and probably punish some good hitters) by establishing some specific set of rules that we can watch the referees get wrong instead, or we can just say "jumping doesn't necessarily require two feet to clear the ice before contact and can be up to referee's discretion" and then the NHL can sit with them and establish how they want it called same as any other rule. It's Pornography and the Supreme Court. It's hard to define fully without taking away from something else, so it becomes something you have to observe to judge.

Again, I'm way less bothered by the hit than some of these bad responses to what I thought was a pretty abstract point about "jumping" but it seems we're really going to be that simplistic about it.