Greatest Montreal Canadiens Player Of All-Time? #5

[BaseballCoach]

..Eh... He did win 3 Hart Awards, which is more than any other Hab I can think of.
(And that's only the short reply)

OK, but it was in a six team era.

 

[BaseballCoach]

I agree that ranking Savard ahead of Robinson for their overall career in Montreal is hard to defend.Robinson is clearly the 2nd greatest defenseman in MTL Canadiens history after Harvey amd the best member of the Big Three.

I even argue that Lapointe was better than Savard.Lapointe was called the best non-Orr defenseman of the early-70s by Ken Dryden in his book The Game.It's probably Brad Park, but that is tough competition anyway.

Too bad Savard about the leg though, and Savard brought leadership and has a Conn Smythe which is quite the feat for his kind of player (defensive defenseman).

Savard won the Smythe in 1969 when he was an uber-offensive defenceman. He even scored a goal when we were two men short that made his reputation.

 

[MXD]

OK, but it was in a six team era.

1. No.
2. Was it valid for Maurice Richard and al. ?

 

[Skip Bayless]

Howie Morenz add Bouillon

 

[BenchBrawl]

Savard won the Smythe in 1969 when he was an uber-offensive defenceman. He even scored a goal when we were two men short that made his reputation.

You're right.He was good offensively in those playoffs.But he had 31 points during that season, not exactly Bobby Orr territory.

Granted, since he was so young, his ''identity'' wasn't set in stone yet.I understand Savard had the potential to become a great offensive defenseman, too bad it didn't happen.

 

[BenchBrawl]

OK, but it was in a six team era.

What if we eliminated 24 teams from the NHL today and the remaining six teams could acquire the teamless players of their choice?

Would it be easier to win the Hart? The way I see it you still have to beat Crosby, Kane, Price, etc... even if there's just six teams.

And yes, the Europeans being in the NHL changes things a bit, but not so much at the very top.

 

[BaseballCoach]

What if we eliminated 24 teams from the NHL today and the remaining six teams could acquire the teamless players of their choice?

Would it be easier to win the Hart? The way I see it you still have to beat Crosby, Kane, Price, etc... even if there's just six teams.

And yes, the Europeans being in the NHL changes things a bit, but not so much at the very top.

Good point about the number of teams, but it is still true that winning the Hart then is like eliminating all the Americans and Europeans today.

But yes, I was wrong when I said that he had two great seasons. He had three.

The problem for me is that he fell off significantly after age 29. So even though he died prematurely at 35 yo, he did not miss any dominant years.

A guy who slowed down that young (I heard he was a heavy smoker) can't be in the conversation as top 5 of all time. Not on a team that had so many superstars.

Yes, I know Lafleur also slowed down around age 30, but he had 6 straight 50 goal seasons so at least he dominated for longer than Morenz. Morenz also didn't get as much team success as many of the other guys we are naming in the top 5. That's a factor. for the same reason that Guy Lafleur gets more consideration as a superstar than Marcel Dionne who had a better career numbers-wise.

In my books, all three of Robinson, Savard and Lapointe have to be WAYYY up there.

 

[BaseballCoach]

You're right.He was good offensively in those playoffs.But he had 31 points during that season, not exactly Bobby Orr territory.

Granted, since he was so young, his ''identity'' wasn't set in stone yet.I understand Savard had the potential to become a great offensive defenseman, too bad it didn't happen.

In 1969 Savard was almost reckless in his offensive rushes. It's also true that he really hit the big time in the playoffs, as his regular season was only average. At that age, he tried a lot of spectacular stuff that did not necessarily result in goals scored for the team.

 

[BenchBrawl]

Good point about the number of teams, but it is still true that winning the Hart then is like eliminating all the Americans and Europeans today.

But yes, I was wrong when I said that he had two great seasons. He had three.

The problem for me is that he fell off significantly after age 29. So even though he died prematurely at 35 yo, he did not miss any dominant years.

A guy who slowed down that young (I heard he was a heavy smoker) can't be in the conversation as top 5 of all time. Not on a team that had so many superstars.

Yes, I know Lafleur also slowed down around age 30, but he had 6 straight 50 goal seasons so at least he dominated for longer than Morenz. Morenz also didn't get as much team success as many of the other guys we are naming in the top 5. That's a factor. for the same reason that Guy Lafleur gets more consideration as a superstar than Marcel Dionne who had a better career numbers-wise.

In my books, all three of Robinson, Savard and Lapointe have to be WAYYY up there.

Morenz had more than only three great seasons.He was Top 5 in goals in the league for 9 consecutive years.He finished Top 5 in points for 7 years, Top 10 for 10 years.

All in all, Morenz had more significant seasons than Lafleur, and you can also suspect that most players from his era played shorter career, which would make his (lack of) longevity more excusable.

Morenz was widely considered the best forward of all-time (50 years of hockey history) before Maurice Richard came into the picture.He was also a good defensive player, something that isn't true of Lafleur or Richard.

He is less known than the Richard-Beliveau-Lafleur trio but is comfortably in their league, and probably higher than Lafleur.

Newsy Lalonde is another underrated Montreal Canadiens legend (though not on the same level as the four players mentioned above).Fun fact, only 6 players in the history of the game managed to finish a season with the most goals, assists and points: Gretzky, Lemieux, Esposito (with Orr), Howe, Morenz and Lalonde.So four out of six is by the Big 4 of hockey history (or helped by it in Esposito's case), and the other two are Morenz and Lalonde.A sign of domination.

Read this about Morenz, that poster is better than me at presenting this stuff: http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php?p=73109023&postcount=150

 

[FisherKing]

I think J.C. Tremblay needs some consideration soon. The man was a wizard with the puck in his day.