Greatest GM of all time vs Connor McDavid

[DrunkTurtle]

give me sam pollock

A dead man?

 

[Hockey Outsider]

Valid point

I'm not so sure. A zombie GM would be particularly intimidating.

 

[BigDaddyLurch]

I disagree that being dead is a disadvantage. Sam Pollock was intimidating when he was alive. Getting a call from the ghost of Sam Pollock would be much scarier. If your tea leaves suddenly spell "Send me your 1st-round pick", there is no negotiation.

 

[BLNY]

Assuming we’re talking about Sam Pollock, the typical favorite as greatest GM.

McDavid
Pro:
- Best individual player in the league for at least the short term future
- Plays center, which makes him easy to build a competitive team around
- Hungry for a Cup so you can count on him giving you his best

Con:
- You’re really only getting the back end of his career, when he might decline
- Not the easiest player to build around, as we saw with the Oilers taking some time to get it right
- Presumably you’d have to deal with the cap consequences which could make it even harder to build around him


Pollock
Pro:
- Excellent evaluator of talent, masterful in building development systems
- Bold about taking advantage of other GMs’ vulnerabilities
- Proven ability to re-tool championship teams on the fly

Con:
- His success was largely based in the days before the entry draft, a system which no longer exists
- He had tremendous financial advantages which don’t exist in a cap world
- He is dead, which will limit his effectiveness as a leader


On balance, I’d take my chances with McDavid.

I appreciate the effort that went into this post, but I have to take issue with a couple of things re Pollock.

He was GM for 14 years in Montreal - through the 77-78 season. The entry draft system began in 1963. He built the core of the 1970s Habs through the draft. He supplemented the roster with incredibly shrewd trades. The acquisition of the pick that would become the #1OA pick in 1971, and how he orchestrated it is the stuff of legend. This idea that he benefited from a pipeline only he had access to is false.

Yes. He worked in the pre-cap era. To think he wouldn't have figured out how to excel in the current environment is a really big assumption. He was playing chess when everyone else was playing checkers.

 

[WarriorofTime]

Pollock has best track record, but unless you are just copy/pasting the results and not the method, it's pretty fruitless. You're not going to get massive resource/scouting discrepancy in the current environment and you aren't going to get bad teams to trade their picks in lopsided trades, much of which had to do with external reasons. These days especially, much of the greatness from these types whether coach or GM is finding an exploit and then hammering it home until everyone else realizes what you're doing and catches up.

 

[Golden_Jet]

Ok. Went with best GM, and thus I get Gretzky!

You can have Gretzky, he’s in his 60’s.

 

[LTIR]

Greatest GM would do nothing if the owner is cheap or players aren't willing to play in the city. Or if there is no prospect pool . Or if other GMs just gang up against you.

 

[Captain Mountain]

Assuming we’re talking about Sam Pollock, the typical favorite as greatest GM.

McDavid
Pro:
- Best individual player in the league for at least the short term future
- Plays center, which makes him easy to build a competitive team around
- Hungry for a Cup so you can count on him giving you his best

Con:
- You’re really only getting the back end of his career, when he might decline
- Not the easiest player to build around, as we saw with the Oilers taking some time to get it right
- Presumably you’d have to deal with the cap consequences which could make it even harder to build around him


Pollock
Pro:
- Excellent evaluator of talent, masterful in building development systems
- Bold about taking advantage of other GMs’ vulnerabilities
- Proven ability to re-tool championship teams on the fly

Con:
- His success was largely based in the days before the entry draft, a system which no longer exists
- He had tremendous financial advantages which don’t exist in a cap world
- He is dead, which will limit his effectiveness as a leader


On balance, I’d take my chances with McDavid.

Montreal didn't have tremendous financial advantages, they were among the wealthier teams, but not to an outlandish degree.

Pollock's success was mostly because he understood the value of the draft well before any other GMs and ruthlessly exploited that. Most of the team building was done by selecting players who were eligible for the amateur draft and by acquiring picks and occasionally manipulating pick quality by improving other teams through trade.

Its not really possible to be as good as GM as he was in the modern era, but I'd easily take any GM that can be clearly identified as the best current GM, because I think that gives you a better chance of winning than having the best player in the world (since said player hasn't won).

 

[tarheelhockey]

Montreal didn't have tremendous financial advantages, they were among the wealthier teams, but not to an outlandish degree

I wouldn’t say “outlandish”, but the Habs were a very wealthy franchise with Molson money backing them. I’m not sure there’s a way to actually rank the teams as there wasn’t a “Forbes list” in that era to provide financial data, but my impression is they were certainly the most willing team in the NHL when it came to spending money — exhibit A being their very intelligent and systematic investment in development teams during the 50s and 60s.

 

[Voight]

Montreal didn't have tremendous financial advantages, they were among the wealthier teams, but not to an outlandish degree.

Pollock's success was mostly because he understood the value of the draft well before any other GMs and ruthlessly exploited that. Most of the team building was done by selecting players who were eligible for the amateur draft and by acquiring picks and occasionally manipulating pick quality by improving other teams through trade.

Its not really possible to be as good as GM as he was in the modern era, but I'd easily take any GM that can be clearly identified as the best current GM, because I think that gives you a better chance of winning than having the best player in the world (since said player hasn't won).

Pollock also took advantage of the expansion rules, which he helped write so he gave himself a built in advantage.

 

[WarriorofTime]

Montreal didn't have tremendous financial advantages, they were among the wealthier teams, but not to an outlandish degree.

Montreal definitely had a resource advantage. They were using the entire Quebec as a de-facto minor league for their team prior to the widespread adoption of the Entry Draft as the means by which players came to come under possession of NHL teams. Pollock was of course very savvy to realize as the league went away from the former to the latter the importance of the entry draft and ensuring Montreal would continue to have a healthy spread of incoming talent to their team. That being said, if he could freeze himself and theoretically be the GM forever, it's not like that same advantage would carry to a 32-team NHL. He'd have to be like every GM in managing a salary cap and windows of competitiveness where they'd often trade their picks in years the years they were competing, stock up on draft capital and tank out years when they weren't (and then hope to be in the right combo of draft year/ping pong ball luck on top of that), and hope to get the occasional late round steal just like all 32 other teams cycling through the NHL draft selections each year.

As a smart GM, he could likely do each of these things to a more successful degree than other GMs balancing the short and long-term interests, but there's a lot of it that comes outside of a GM's control, and we're usually talking about doing these types of things better at the margins. There is something to be said for the big luck based homeruns being when preparation meets opportunity, but that still doesn't mean they are always going to be replicable across all time and space.

 

[tarheelhockey]

I appreciate the effort that went into this post, but I have to take issue with a couple of things re Pollock.

He was GM for 14 years in Montreal - through the 77-78 season. The entry draft system began in 1963. He built the core of the 1970s Habs through the draft. He supplemented the roster with incredibly shrewd trades. The acquisition of the pick that would become the #1OA pick in 1971, and how he orchestrated it is the stuff of legend. This idea that he benefited from a pipeline only he had access to is false.

I wasn’t referring to the mythology around Habs having first access to French players. I was referring to the very real advantages that Montreal developed under Frank Selke’s conquest of the amateur development system. Yes the draft was established in 1963 — take a look at the Habs roster that year. Virtually all of the talent that won 4 Cups in the late 60s was not just on the team already, but had been developed practically since puberty to someday graduate up to the parent club and seamlessly integrate into the Habs culture and system. It was the closest thing to a Red Machine that ever existed in North America.

Until 1969, those sponsorship-system players were not draft eligible. That’s the point at which Selke’s beautiful machine was dismantled and teams were theoretically on even ground when it came to talent acquisition.

Even at that, it’s not like the Habs were actually on equal ground with the expansion teams which made up the majority of the league. To be crystal clear — Pollock deserves all the credit for recognizing the value of the draft as a replacement for the Selke system, and recognizing that most of the GMs in the league were terrified of being relocated or folded if they didn’t win games and tell tickets immediately. This trade tracker provides a list of the deals Pollock made, and the strategy is quite clear — trade veterans and cash for draft picks. Coming out of the sponsorship era the Habs were a HOFer-studded team with a well developed development system, in a position to marinate a star prospect or ten; whereas the expansion teams had no time or resources to spend on prospect development. That simply isn’t parallel to today’s league, where the GMs are more or less on equal ground and only on rare occasions is anyone truly over a barrel to trade a key pick or prospect.

Yes. He worked in the pre-cap era. To think he wouldn't have figured out how to excel in the current environment is a really big assumption. He was playing chess when everyone else was playing checkers.

Pollock was brilliant, he played his cards perfectly as did Selke before him. But it’s important to recognize that few other GMs were given anything more than a couple of 2s and an Uno card. Bill Torrey is one of the few examples of brilliant GM’ing by an expansion franchise, and his success had to do with being in the NYC market where they could wait a decade for guys like Trottier and Potvin to mature. Few other teams in the league at the time had that margin to work with.

 

[Captain Mountain]

I wouldn’t say “outlandish”, but the Habs were a very wealthy franchise with Molson money backing them. I’m not sure there’s a way to actually rank the teams as there wasn’t a “Forbes list” in that era to provide financial data, but my impression is they were certainly the most willing team in the NHL when it came to spending money — exhibit A being their very intelligent and systematic investment in development teams during the 50s and 60s.

The Molson family didn't even own the team for 4 of is 9 cups as a GM, the Bronfman family did (who are also incredibly wealthy). And Montreal wasn't the only team with wealthy ownership.

And while there is overlap, there's a difference between how Pollock was a good GM (exploiting the draft and player development) vs. how Selke was a good GM (very intelligent and systematic investment in development teams during the 50s and 60s). And Selke wasn't even a revolutionary, he was Conn Smythe's top lieutenant in Toronto before their relationship broke down.

BTW, the Canadiens were in financial trouble when they hired Selke (and have been a few times under Molson ownership, which is why they've sold the teams at times).

Pollock also took advantage of the expansion rules, which he helped write so he gave himself a built in advantage.

How did he get an advantage from expansion rules?

I hope its not the French Canadian rule (which had nothing to do with expansion, didn't actually benefit them and was something they knew would be a poor substitute to the farm system they built).

 

[NikF]

Greatest GMs of all time are typically associated with generational talent the team was usually lucky to stumble upon.

So McDavid.

 

[Gjman2019]

I wasn’t referring to the mythology around Habs having first access to French players. I was referring to the very real advantages that Montreal developed under Frank Selke’s conquest of the amateur development system. Yes the draft was established in 1963 — take a look at the Habs roster that year. Virtually all of the talent that won 4 Cups in the late 60s was not just on the team already, but had been developed practically since puberty to someday graduate up to the parent club and seamlessly integrate into the Habs culture and system. It was the closest thing to a Red Machine that ever existed in North America.

Until 1969, those sponsorship-system players were not draft eligible. That’s the point at which Selke’s beautiful machine was dismantled and teams were theoretically on even ground when it came to talent acquisition.

Even at that, it’s not like the Habs were actually on equal ground with the expansion teams which made up the majority of the league. To be crystal clear — Pollock deserves all the credit for recognizing the value of the draft as a replacement for the Selke system, and recognizing that most of the GMs in the league were terrified of being relocated or folded if they didn’t win games and tell tickets immediately. This trade tracker provides a list of the deals Pollock made, and the strategy is quite clear — trade veterans and cash for draft picks. Coming out of the sponsorship era the Habs were a HOFer-studded team with a well developed development system, in a position to marinate a star prospect or ten; whereas the expansion teams had no time or resources to spend on prospect development. That simply isn’t parallel to today’s league, where the GMs are more or less on equal ground and only on rare occasions is anyone truly over a barrel to trade a key pick or prospect.



Pollock was brilliant, he played his cards perfectly as did Selke before him. But it’s important to recognize that few other GMs were given anything more than a couple of 2s and an Uno card. Bill Torrey is one of the few examples of brilliant GM’ing by an expansion franchise, and his success had to do with being in the NYC market where they could wait a decade for guys like Trottier and Potvin to mature. Few other teams in the league at the time had that margin to work with.

No way he's able to pull off that Lafleur trade today....He tried doing the same thing with Bill Torrey a couple years later and it didn't work........

Thanks for the post though....Was very informing but i say Pollock's overrated .......He benefitted greatly from the circumstances at the time...........

 

[HuGort]

I appreciate the effort that went into this post, but I have to take issue with a couple of things re Pollock.

He was GM for 14 years in Montreal - through the 77-78 season. The entry draft system began in 1963. He built the core of the 1970s Habs through the draft. He supplemented the roster with incredibly shrewd trades. The acquisition of the pick that would become the #1OA pick in 1971, and how he orchestrated it is the stuff of legend. This idea that he benefited from a pipeline only he had access to is false.

Yes. He worked in the pre-cap era. To think he wouldn't have figured out how to excel in the current environment is a really big assumption. He was playing chess when everyone else was playing checkers.

Pollock a lot of hall of famers from the C contract era. Helped a little bit. Cournoyer, Lemaire, Savard, Lapointe to name a few. Draft didn't start in earnest until 1968.

 

[Coffee]

Give me Drury all day

 

[Voight]

How did he get an advantage from expansion rules?

I hope its not the French Canadian rule (which had nothing to do with expansion, didn't actually benefit them and was something they knew would be a poor substitute to the farm system they built).

When the NHL decided it was time to expand, the expansion committee (which really was just Clarence Campbell) decided that the person who would do the best job at creating the expansion draft rules would be Sam Pollock. We have to stop and think about this for a moment: they put a GM in charge of setting the rule about which players he and his competitors would have to give up. It would be the same as if the league expanded today, but they left it all up to Ken Holland. Whose interests do you think he'd be looking out for? Mind boggling, but that's the NHL for you.

Before draft day 1967, the NHL had decided that each of the Original 6 teams could protect 11 skaters, 1 goalie and 1 junior-aged player who had been signed the year before (and even that had been bumped up from 8-1-1). Pollock's "problem" was that the Habs had a huge network of players in their minor league system, and he knew a lot of those guys would go. Hell, at this time, they had two AHL and two WHL teams... Four minor pro. Unreal.

Did he want those players picked by other teams? Oh hell yes.

Pollock looked up and down his and his 5 other competitor's rosters, the players' ages and pro experience, and then drafted rules to create a huge exemption for himself: players who had played professionally for the first time in the 1966–67 season were ineligible from being picked until their team had filled their protected list with at least two goaltenders and eighteen other players.

Due to the size of the Habs farm system, it was their players being picked more than any of the other Original 6 teams, and he knew it would be that way. By the time the 10 round had gone by, Pollock didn't even have to bother protecting guys like Serge Savard or Rogie Vachon. Pollock was able to sit on all of his best young and prime-aged players, while mostly just giving up 3rd and 4th liners. Nobody was really choosing the other teams' guys, but for the key pieces. So, BOOM! The Bruins lose Bernie Parent, completely unable to protect him. Boom! The Hawks were basically cleaned out.

Pollock's amendment allowed him to keep every single one of his best prospects while his competitors all lost some of theirs.

Sam Pollock offered me Carol Vadnais before the Intra-League draft. He was playing for Sam in the minor leagues. Sam said “I can leave him off the protected list on the proviso that when I want him back, whether it is next year or two years or what, I get him.” Bill Torrey and I were together at this time and we figured ‘how can we lose?’ So we said “sure, we’ll take him, Sam.” So we got Carol and he played like gangbusters. Sam comes to us at the end of the year and says “I can use him now.” I said “well Sam, we can’t just return him. We’ve got to get something for him. He’s our best player, he’s what we’re selling in Oakland.”

Well Sam was in our suite at the annual meetings and he’s……chewing on his tie……“well, what would you want?” “We’d need someone like Bobby Rousseau” “You can’t have Rousseau” “Well, we need somebody like this” “You can’t have that.” So then I said to Sam “Well I guess that being the case you can’t have Carol.” Sam said “You made a deal!” I said “would you like me to go to Mr. Campbell and tell him that we colluded with you to hide a player?” He (Sam) said “you wouldn’t do that” and I said “well, I’d do it before I’d lose Vadnais.” He got up and walked out and that was it, but those were the kinds of things Sam did.

Another General Manager is here, telling us about how, after Pollock created ineligibility rules to protect his team the most, conspired with other GMs to not give up the little bits he stood to lose.

The expansion teams, particularly in California, where there was nothing resembling a hockey market, were in trouble, and it helped make for desperate GMs. They needed NHL players they could sell to the public, and since Pollock was neck deep in actual NHL players and swimming in the filth of outstanding young prospects that he didn't have to lose on draft day, starting unloading decent players for high picks. From 1969 to 1974, the Habs had 17-1st round picks and 8-2nd rounders. In '72, they had 4 of the first 14 picks, and in 1974, they had 5 of the first 15 picks.

Just look at some of these deals:
-June 11, 1968 trades Gerry Desjardins to Los Angeles for the Kings first round picks in 1969 and 1972 (Steve Shutt)
-January 23, 1970 trades Dick Duff to Los Angeles for Dennis Hextall and the Kings second round pick in 1971 (Larry Robinson).
-May 22, 1970 trades Francois Lacombe and cash to California for the Golden Seals 1st round pick (Guy Lafleur).
-May 29, 1973 trades Bob Murdoch and Randy Rota to Los Angeles for cash and the Kings first round pick in 1974 (Mario Tremblay).

I'm sure there's some that I'm forgetting, but you get the idea.

But hey, none of this should be a surprise by now: this league was re-formed from the NHA to get rid of a pain in the ass owner. From NHL really equaling Norris House League for about three decades, to letting a GM write the rules his competitors would live by, it's always been a bit of a bush league.

I'm tired of hearing about how the 70s Habs are the greatest team ever. They should be. After all, their General Manager was given carte blanche to set up things in his own favor.

TLDR - Sam Pollock was given the right to create expansion draft rules which served his team above all others. He colluded with other GMs to help protect the players he wanted and created a sort of desperation among the expansion GMs which allowed him pick the bones for what he wanted. It ended up making the results of much of the 1970s kind of a joke.


Source - Temu HFBoards

https://www.hockeyforums.net/topic/66869-are-the-habs-planning-to-tank/?page=2

 

[bobholly39]

Anyone not voting McDavid is an idiot.

Because I guarantee you the greatest gm of all-time would quit asap as soon as he found out your team had a chance to get McDavid for free, and decided to pass.

 

[Lshap]

TLDR - Sam Pollock was given the right to create expansion draft rules which served his team above all others. He colluded with other GMs to help protect the players he wanted and created a sort of desperation among the expansion GMs which allowed him pick the bones for what he wanted. It ended up making the results of much of the 1970s kind of a joke.


Source - Temu HFBoards

https://www.hockeyforums.net/topic/66869-are-the-habs-planning-to-tank/?page=2

Which specific rule benefitted Montreal above other O6 teams?

 

[Caps8112]

think this should be the GM. Mcdavid is amazing but if he gets hurt for any significant time he isnt doing anything for you and your team sucks. Assuming the GM can build the 90s-00s Red Wings. Not much of a choice if thats what we are talking about.

*Edit: I didnt think about if its your team as is, right now. For the Caps yes, Ill take Mcdavid right now added to the roster. If its starting from scratch ill take the GM.

 

[acor]

Greatest GM would do nothing if the owner is cheap or players aren't willing to play in the city. Or if there is no prospect pool . Or if other GMs just gang up against you.

McDavid also wouldn't do much with circumstances like that... He's only one player after all.