Greatest "2nd line" Centers in History

[BenchBrawl]

I define the relevent career to take into consideration as every season where a center was the official 2nd best center of his team.For example, every year that Messier played behind Gretzky qualifies, but his other seasons where he was the best center on his team are erased.If the center played on the 2nd line but was the best center, this doesn't qualify (e.g. if Mikita played on the 2nd line because Hull was on the 1st, it doesn't count as "2nd center").

So who would you pick as your Top 5?

Henri Richard is easily #1 here right? Just looking for some opinions on that specific role.

 

[Johnny Engine]

Before other posters jump to include them, BenchBrawl's criteria eliminates around half of Forsberg and Fedorov's relevant careers, as they'd have been better than Sakic or Yzerman quite often.

 

[BenchBrawl]

I understand some situations are harder to judge, e.g. Sakic vs. Forsberg or Fedorov vs. Yzerman and the likes.I say pick the intuitive one (here it would be Forsberg and Fedorov), and include every seasons including those where he beat the best center.Just think of it as a very good year for the 2nd best center.

The way I see it, Sakic is Colorado's best center, even in a year where he isn't.Maybe we can debate a situation where the best C declines and get demoted as the 2nd best against the upcoming 2nd best who is younger, permanently.Then maybe the years starting from that point should be disqualified for the up-and-coming guy.

The same happens with Malkin.As far as I'm concerned all of Malkin's career should be included.He never "dethroned" Crosby, even if he outperformed him some seasons.

 

[Nathaniel]

Malkin?

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

By this criteria, the #1 #2-center (heh) would be either Henri Richard or Peter Forsberg. I think either one is a valid answer. Sorry, Malkin, despite what the main board thinks, you haven't passed Forsberg yet.

Here are the top ones who spent most or all of their careers as a #2 C:

Henri Richard (Jean Beliveau)
Peter Forsberg (Joe Sakic)
Evgeni Malkin (Sidney Crosby)
Sergei Fedorov (Steve Yzerman)

These guys need further analysis to determine when they were #1 and when they were #2 Cs:

Bill Cowley/Milt Schmidt (which was #1?)
Ted Kennedy (Syl Apps/Max Bentley)
Mark Messier (Wayne Gretzky)
Norm Ullman / Alex Delvecchio - kind of a weird situation where Ullman was probably better, but Delvecchio was technically the #1C, as he centered Gordie Howe

 

[Sensinitis]

A very modern one that comes to mind is David Krejci. He's outperformed Bergeron on occasions but I'd say very clearly the no2 behind him. Doubt he comes close to top 5 however.

What about Joe Nieuwendyk? Seems clearly the no2 behind Modano in Dallas. But how often was he clearly 2C in Calgary? Especially while Gilmour was there?

 

[MXD]

Spitballing : #3 is Malkin, #4 is Rod Brind'Amour.

 

[ImporterExporter]

Ron Francis in Pittsburgh comes to mind. Very good offensive outputs during that time period and was a Selke level/winning defensive C.

 

[The Panther]

These guys need further analysis to determine when they were #1 and when they were #2 Cs:

Mark Messier (Wayne Gretzky)

About Messier, he became a center during 1983-84, so his career 1st/2nd line duty would go something like this:

1983-84 to 1987-88 (five seasons)
2nd center (to Gretzky)

1988-89 (one season)
1st center, by reputation, but his line was actually out-scored by the Carson-Kurri-Tikkanen line, and he missed 8 games to suspension, so he was sort-of like 1A.

1989-90 to 1995-96 (seven seasons)
1st center

1996-97 (one season)
Gretzky and Messier are effectively 1A and 1B (by now, Mess actually matched Wayne's per-game scoring pace, but again he missed some games)

1997-98 to 1999-00 (three seasons)
1st center
(Mess was outscored by Andrew Cassels, at center, in 1999-00, but when in the line-up he had a bit more ice-time and overall a slightly better per-game point production than Cassels, so I think we can still call him #1 that season.)

2000-01 (one season)
2nd to Petr Nedved

2001-02 and 2002-03 (two seasons)
3rd to Lindros and Nedved

2003-04 (one season)
2nd to Bobby Holik (due to the usual Lindros injury)


So, in total, Mess played 21 seasons as a center, and the breakdown is roughly:

1st line center
10 seasons

1A (or 1B) center (i.e., co-first line)
2 seasons

2nd line center
7 seasons

3rd line center
2 seasons


So, seven seasons as a the clear #2 guy, and another two seasons borderline. You could make a case for as many as nine.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Norm Ullman

By this criteria, the #1 #2-center (heh) would be either Henri Richard or Peter Forsberg. I think either one is a valid answer. Sorry, Malkin, despite what the main board thinks, you haven't passed Forsberg yet.

Here are the top ones who spent most or all of their careers as a #2 C:

Henri Richard (Jean Beliveau)
Peter Forsberg (Joe Sakic)
Evgeni Malkin (Sidney Crosby)
Sergei Fedorov (Steve Yzerman)

These guys need further analysis to determine when they were #1 and when they were #2 Cs:

Bill Cowley/Milt Schmidt (which was #1?)
Ted Kennedy (Syl Apps/Max Bentley)
Mark Messier (Wayne Gretzky)
Norm Ullman / Alex Delvecchio - kind of a weird situation where Ullman was probably better, but Delvecchio was technically the #1C, as he centered Gordie Howe

1956-57 Ullman centered Lindsay and Howe, resulting in the line setting the contemporary record for total points during the season.

Wings traded Lindsay and Bucyk in the off season creating a hole at left wing that they never filed for roughly ten seasons. Host of retreads and even Red Kelly played LW, as did Alex Delvecchio since reasonable centers were easier to find. Delvecchio was the second team AS in 1958-59.

1959 season onwards Delvechio played mainly center with Howe because he was a better overall center and could cover for the LW. Ullman may have brought more offensively at times, facing the oppositions weaker checkers but could not cover for a weak LW.

 

[Crosbyfan]

Phil Esposito was definitely #2 behind Mikita in Chicago

 

[nabby12]

Butch Goring.

 

[Conspiracy Theorist]

Malkin.

 

[VanIslander]

PEAK (5 years): Messier behind Gretzky

CAREER: Forsberg behind Sakic.

 

[GlitchMarner]

What about Brad Richards on TB?

I think he was slotted as the Lightning's number two C even early in his career, but he was effectively the team's top centre in the 2004 Cup run and generally better than Vinny Lecavalier until Lecavalier's big break out season in 2006-2007.

He outscored VL in 2001, 2002, 2004 and 2006 and in the 2004 playoffs.

 

[crobro]

Francis during Mario years
Yzerman during Fedorovs ascent
Messier Gretzky

 

[decma]

Bernie Nicholls put up some very good numbers as a #2 C behind Dionne and Gretzky.

He was #2 behind Dionne for his call-up in 81-82, all of 82-83, 83-84, 84-85, and arguably 85-86.

Then #2 behind Gretzky for 88-89 and part of 89-90 until trade to NYR.

During those 5 full and 2 partial seasons:
457 GP, 260 G and 594 P.

Even if you take out 85-86, still 377-224-497.

Even taking era into account, that is very impressive.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

What about Joe Nieuwendyk? Seems clearly the no2 behind Modano in Dallas. But how often was he clearly 2C in Calgary? Especially while Gilmour was there?

i think nieuwendyk centered what was at least nominally the first line almost the entire time he was in calgary (roberts-nieuwendyk-loob, then roberts-nieuwendyk-makarov).

it's probably fair to say that tonelli-bullard-hull (later mullen?) was 1a in nieuwendyk's rookie year, and patterson-gilmour-mullen was a 1a line from year two on. but i do think nieuwendyk's line would have been the number one line, by extension making nieuwendyk the number one center. i remember shortly after the big calgary-toronto trade, cliff fletcher said: "calgary thought joe nieuwendyk was its number one center. now they know it was doug gilmour."

but that was a special case, because those teams were so deep. in 1989, nieuwendyk centered the first line, but he was only the team's third best and third most important center.

“Everything was pointing towards a Calgary-Montreal showdown,†said the famously moustached McDonald. “We still had quite a few guys from that ’86 team. But this time we just weren’t willing to let each other down. We had great goaltending, phenomenal depth up front. Our three centers down the middle were Joe Nieuwendyk, Doug Gilmour and Joel Otto. Where are you going to find two better offensive guys and one better checker in the middle?â€

Nieuwendyk, then 22 and already a two-time 50-goal scorer, centered 22-year-old Gary Roberts and Loob. The second line consisted of Gilmour between Joe Mullen and Colin Patterson. Mullen led playoff goal scorers that spring with 16 in 21 games. Otto, a hulking shutdown specialist, also contributed offense with 53 points and 19 in 22 playoff games. He played with a variety of wingers, including McDonald, Peplinski, Mark Hunter and Jiri Hrdina.

http://www.thehockeynews.com/news/article/greatest-teams-of-all-time-1988-89-calgary-flames

and later on, i'm pretty sure nieuwendyk-roberts was considered the number one line, and reichel-fleury was the second.

 

[GordieHowsUrBreath]

malkin easily

 

[Talisman]

Vyacheslav Bykov

 

[BenchBrawl]

By this criteria, the #1 #2-center (heh) would be either Henri Richard or Peter Forsberg. I think either one is a valid answer. Sorry, Malkin, despite what the main board thinks, you haven't passed Forsberg yet.

Here are the top ones who spent most or all of their careers as a #2 C:

Henri Richard (Jean Beliveau)
Peter Forsberg (Joe Sakic)
Evgeni Malkin (Sidney Crosby)
Sergei Fedorov (Steve Yzerman)

These guys need further analysis to determine when they were #1 and when they were #2 Cs:

Bill Cowley/Milt Schmidt (which was #1?)
Ted Kennedy (Syl Apps/Max Bentley)
Mark Messier (Wayne Gretzky)
Norm Ullman / Alex Delvecchio - kind of a weird situation where Ullman was probably better, but Delvecchio was technically the #1C, as he centered Gordie Howe

Good list.With the except of Ullman/Delvecchio, all of those won multiple cups.And Ullman/Delvecchio played against monstruous dynasty teams.

In a sense, Henri Richard's career and role is truly unique.It was clearer than he was the 2nd center on his teams all along compared to guys like Forsberg and Fedorov, and he did it for so long, winning the most cups of any player ever.A very bizarre role/career.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Good list.With the except of Ullman/Delvecchio, all of those won multiple cups.And Ullman/Delvecchio played against monstruous dynasty teams.

In a sense, Henri Richard's career and role is truly unique.It was clearer than he was the 2nd center on his teams all along compared to guys like Forsberg and Fedorov, and he did it for so long, winning the most cups of any player ever.A very bizarre role/career.

As far as I'm aware, Henri Richard was the only one of these "#2 centers" who didn't play on the top PP Unit. Though Messier SOMETIMES did not. Not sure, maybe Schmidt didnt play PP at the height of Cowley's career, it would help explain Schmidt's up-and-down scoring.

Forsberg - wing on 1st PP when Sakic was C, center on 1st PP when Sakic played the point.

Malkin - wing or point on 1st PP.

Fedorov, Bentley, Delvecchio, Francis, Richards - often played point.

As far as I know, Henri Richard only played 1st PP when there were injuries.

Back to Messier, his PP/ES splits suggest he actually saw limited PP time for parts of his career in Edmonton.

 

[Leafsdude7]

Surprised with the lack of mention of Rod Brind'Amour, considering how often he's portrayed as Joe Nieuwendyk-lite, even though he never was a legitimate #1 centre like Joe was. Another name I think of here would be Dale Hunter, though I wonder if he might have been a 3rd/4th line centre for too much of his career to count.

I think those names more line up to the OP's thoughts here: players who were actual second line centres and not 1st line centres who were unlucky enough to be on a team with a better 1st line centre. These guys would have had to have been on expansion teams or teams that were completely void of any centre depth to play 1st line minutes. For that matter, how about first line centres who clearly weren't: Steve Rucchin, Craig Conroy, etc. I guess calling them 2nd line centres could be a bit absurd, even if they were only there by luck rather than talent.

 

[BadgerBruce]

From 67-73, Fred Stanfield (the sometimes forgotten guy in the big Esposito trade with Chicago) was the Bruins second line centre, usually flanked by Bucyk and Pie McKenzie. Not a household name but very effective -- 6 straight 20-plus goal seasons playing behind Esposito on what was arguably the best second line in the league for 3 or 4 years in the early 70s.

Not the best second line centre of all time, but the guy could play and was very consistent -- a point per game player over the 71-73 three year run. Strong on the draw, too, and good wheels. Steady Freddy was always one of my favorites and was a true second line centre.

 

[VanIslander]

Surprised with the lack of mention of Rod Brind'Amour, considering how often he's portrayed as Joe Nieuwendyk-lite

I've never heard this and I don't get the comparison.

Brindy as a winger in Philly was Ciccarelli-lite with his net presence on screens and tip-ins. Brindy in Carolina as a center was slow but committed to getting from crease to crease. Joe was quicker, led plays up ice, stickhandled more, went into traffic everywhere on the ice not just up and down the middle. Brindy was more physical without the puck and less of a mover and shaker with the puck.

I guess they were both good at face-offs and could handle punishment from physical defensemen.