Gordie Howe's Extremely Weak Competition For Scoring Titles: A Comparison With Connor McDavid.

[daver]

Putting the "extremely weak" objectivity of the OP aside, a possible lingering of "the war years affect" is one worth considering.

I have no issue with putting Richard's 44/45 season into context but not to the degree that some choose to. I think it is reasonable to claim his goal total is not as high and that a player or two would have been closer to him than Cain was.

The late 40s is generally seen as a return to normal with a number of players who missed 2 to 3 returning to the Top 10 in scoring.

Howe was too young for the war but what about players that were 2 to 7 years older than him? Was there a drop in the number of NHL level players joining the NHL born between 1920 to 1926 or so due being injured or killed in the war?

 

[Staniowski]

I'll assume positive intent on the part of the OP here.

I agree with the general premise that Gordie Howe faced less competition from players within his 5 year cohort than McDavid has. I don't see how that can be refuted, really.

However, I do think this exercise isn't particularly reflective of the scoring competition each player faced. For starters, only looking at a 5-year period - 2 years on either side of a player's birth year - doesn't really give you the idea of the scoring environment. Howe's competition during the four year run you listed wasn't Olmstead, Raleigh, and Silan, it was Ted Lindsay, Maurice Richard, and Red Kelly. Who cares if they weren't in the same exact (very-narrowly defined) age bracket (and Kelly should even qualify by your standard as a 1927 birth).

Again, the discussion isn't limited to the 5-year cohort, which I used simply to show how weak the talent was in the early 1950s. If you look at the actual scoring leaders in those four seasons, it's the same thing - extremely weak. There are no great scorers other than Howe, and the depth of talent is terrible.

 

[Staniowski]

I think Howe was born in the right time to win some easy hardware. He had that stretch with the main competition where old players from the war era and Richard who never won a scoring title. The league was about to become really strong but not for a few seasons and Howe took full advantage. The same can be said for Esposito who got to peak in the late 60s.

If McDavid was drafted in 2009 he would've been even more dominant.

Season	Scoring champion	MVP
2009-10	H.Sedin (82-29-83-112)	Ovechkin
2010-11	D.Sedin (82-41-63-104)	Perry
2011-12	Malkin (75-50-59-109)	Malkin
2012-13	St Louis (48-17-43-60)	Ovechkin
2013-14	Crosby (80-36-68-104)	Crosby
2014-15	Benn (82-35-52-87)	Price
2015-16	Kane (82-46-60-106)	Kane
2016-17	McDavid (82-30-70-100)	McDavid
2017-18	McDavid (82-41-67-108)	Hall

McDavid probably has 6-7 scoring titles already after 17-18.

As it is McDavid got 1 ''easy'' Art Ross win in 16-17 and another kind of easy win in 17-18 due to injuries to MacKinnon before his competition caught up and they all went to another level.

	McDavid 82 Game Pace	McDavid GP	Kucherov 82 Game Pace	Kucherov GP	MacKinnon 82 Game Pace	MacKinnon GP	Draisaitl 82 Game Pace	Draisaitl GP
2016-17	100	82	94	74	53	82	77	82
2017-18	108	82	103	80	107	74	74	78
2018-19	122	78	128	82	99	82	105	82
2019-20*	125	64	103	68	111	69	127	71
2020-21	154	56/56	0	0	112	48/56	123	56/56
2021-22	127	80	121	47	111	65	113	80
2022-23	153	82	113	82	128	71	131	80
2023-24	143	76	146	81	140	82	107	81
2024-25	122	67	127	78	121	79	122	71

I think Howe benefited from easy competition there for a while but I think if his competition had come sooner then his peak would probably look more like McDavids. 1-2 seasons where he smashes the field and some seasons when the competition is at the same level but miss some time.

Guy Lafleur also benefited from being born/peaking at the right time. He won 3 scoring titles in a row but they all came in the period between Esposito and Gretzky. Lafleur got destroyed by Trottier while Lafleur was still in his peak in 78-79:

1978-79	GP	G	A	P	80 Game Pace
Trottier	76	47	87	134	141
Dionne	80	59	71	130	130
Lafleur	80	52	77	129	129
Bossy	80	69	57	126	126
MacMillan	79	37	71	108	110

I think McDavid have some of the hardest competition ever. It's rare to face a multiple art ross winner from another team. Crosby-Malkin, Jagr-Lemieux, Hull-Mikita, Orr-Esposito where all teammates. Howe obviously faced both Hull and Mikita but that was in his mid 30s.

Yes, the Esposito/Orr years is also quite weak. The best forward talent was guys like Cournoyer. Esposito's domination would look a lot different if he was the same age as Dionne, Lafleur, etc.

Crosby's time is a lot stronger than Howe's but it doesn't have the depth of McDavid's. McDavid's is exceptionally strong.

 

[rmartin65]

Again, the discussion isn't limited to the 5-year cohort, which I used simply to show how weak the talent was in the early 1950s. If you look at the actual scoring leaders in those four seasons, it's the same thing - extremely weak. There are no great scorers other than Howe, and the depth of talent is terrible.

Except you left out the actual top scorers of the early 1950s?

 

[Staniowski]

Putting the "extremely weak" objectivity of the OP aside, a possible lingering of "the war years affect" is one worth considering.

I have no issue with putting Richard's 44/45 season into context but not to the degree that some choose to. I think it is reasonable to claim his goal total is not as high and that a player or two would have been closer to him than Cain was.

The late 40s is generally seen as a return to normal with a number of players who missed 2 to 3 returning to the Top 10 in scoring.

Howe was too young for the war but what about players that were 2 to 7 years older than him? Was there a drop in the number of NHL level players joining the NHL born between 1920 to 1926 or so due being injured or killed in the war?

It's unknown to what extent the war affected the young talent. But you can look at the players born in the 1920s and it's very shallow. Was it stronger previous to this? Maybe a little, but I think the Howe - Beliveau - Moore - Bathgate, etc. generation is the most talented ever up to that point. But even that group is not deep like the McDavid group.

 

[Staniowski]

Except you left out the actual top scorers of the early 1950s?

I didn't leave out anybody...I was very clear that I wasn't naming all the best scorers of either period. Everybody can see who the players are. The players not specifically named in McDavid's time - including Kucherov - are many times stronger than those of Howe's time.

 

[Sentinel]

Just to throw it out there: Howe was also an elite two-way player, which cannot be said about McDavid.

 

[Professor What]

There's another thing that's being ignored though, and it's the strength of Howe's performances. That's not dependent on the competition of the day, it's dependent on historical comparisons. And in that, we see Howe break or tie the NHL record for points in a season three straight years. I recognize that multiple things factor into that, but the fact is, he beat everybody up to that point in that metric.

 

[TheGreenTBer]

Charles Dickens was born in 1812. Looking at his competition — novelists born during the 5-year period of 1810-1814 — there’s really just William Makepeace Thackeray (born 1911) who wrote anything of note.

I’ll ignore Charlotte Brontë (Jane Eyre), Emily Brontë (Wuthering Heights), George Eliot (Middlemarch), Fyodor Dostoevsky(Crime and Punishment), Herman Melville (Moby Dick), Nathaniel Hawthorne (The Scarlet Letter).

Oh, and I guess Thomas Hardy and Mark Twain are also out because they, too, were not born in the 5-year window surrounding Dickens’s birth.

Next week, I’ll outline why Stephen King (born 1947) blows Dickens away because of all the great novelists born between 1945-1949.

One of the best posts I've ever seen lmao.

This kind of snark is exactly what the OP's garbage deserves.

 

[authentic]

And this is extremely misleading. I can prove that with one name: Jean Beliveau. Just because he wasn't born within two years of Howe doesn't mean that they didn't very significantly overlap and weren't competition with each other. It ignores Bobby Hull and Maurice Richard that had noticeable overlap with him too. Why do you even post stuff like this lacking the real context unless you're trying to be dishonest?

He is clearly talking about when Howe won his 4 consecutive scoring titles. When those players had their primes it was outside that timeframe.

 

[authentic]

The strength of McDavid’s competition is a night and day difference, even to the latter part of the 50s. This is why McDavid is a better peak player, and it shouldn’t be all that controversial to assume this is the case. The same could probably be said for many current superstars such as Crosby, Malkin, MacKinnon and Ovechkin quite honestly.

 

[WarriorofTime]

Not just the war but the formative years being the Great Depression likely played a major role as well.

Although like the Jagr thread this is a very backhanded way to really discuss that McDavid’s Art Ross competition is very difficult.

 

[Matsun]

The strength of McDavid’s competition is a night and day difference, even to the latter part of the 50s. This is why McDavid is a better peak player, and it shouldn’t be all that controversial to assume this is the case. The same could probably be said for many current superstars such as Crosby, Malkin, MacKinnon and Ovechkin quite honestly.

Crosby had a REALLY easy path to domination from 2010-2017. Ovechkin stopped scoring points, Malkin and Stamkos broke down and Tavares didn't pan out. The problem is Crosby didn't take advantage due to injuries and motivation.

Season	Scoring champion	MVP
2010-11	D.Sedin (82-41-63-104)	Perry
2011-12	Malkin (75-50-59-109)	Malkin
2012-13	St Louis (48-17-43-60)	Ovechkin
2013-14	Crosby (80-36-68-104)	Crosby
2014-15	Benn (82-35-52-87)	Price
2015-16	Kane (82-46-60-106)	Kane
2016-17	McDavid (82-30-70-100)	McDavid
2017-18	McDavid (82-41-67-108)	Hall

Malkin in 11-12 is the only historic season here but he missed 7 games so Crosby would still beat him. McDavid is a historic player but his first 2 scoring titles are not really dominant performances so I think this entire stretch of seasons should've been easy for a dominant scorer.

Crosby did win big in 13-14 but it never felt like the peak I was hoping to see from him. It was more like a 51 Howe than a 53 Howe or a 22 McDavid when I wanted a 23 McDavid.

 

[The Panther]

By the way, 2021 was McDavid's best season.

 

[Professor What]

He is clearly talking about when Howe won his 4 consecutive scoring titles. When those players had their primes it was outside that timeframe.

I admit I didn't catch that at first, but if you'll look back at the thread, I've addressed it. No matter how you slice it, the original post was misleading.

 

[authentic]

By the way, 2021 was McDavid's best season.

Was that really going to be better than his 2022-23 in a full season? He was also a better goal scorer over that entire season, but in pure dominance he stood out more in points. I just don’t think that dominance would’ve held quite the same in a full regular schedule so we’ll never know for sure if he was actually better that season. By the eye test I would say both seasons are quite close.

 

[Nathaniel]

Crosby had a REALLY easy path to domination from 2010-2017. Ovechkin stopped scoring points, Malkin and Stamkos broke down and Tavares didn't pan out. The problem is Crosby didn't take advantage due to injuries and motivation.

Season	Scoring champion	MVP
2010-11	D.Sedin (82-41-63-104)	Perry
2011-12	Malkin (75-50-59-109)	Malkin
2012-13	St Louis (48-17-43-60)	Ovechkin
2013-14	Crosby (80-36-68-104)	Crosby
2014-15	Benn (82-35-52-87)	Price
2015-16	Kane (82-46-60-106)	Kane
2016-17	McDavid (82-30-70-100)	McDavid
2017-18	McDavid (82-41-67-108)	Hall

Malkin in 11-12 is the only historic season here but he missed 7 games so Crosby would still beat him. McDavid is a historic player but his first 2 scoring titles are not really dominant performances so I think this entire stretch of seasons should've been easy for a dominant scorer.

Crosby did win big in 13-14 but it never felt like the peak I was hoping to see from him. It was more like a 51 Howe than a 53 Howe or a 22 McDavid when I wanted a 23 McDavid.

Crosby was dominating the 10-11 and 12-13 seasons then dominated the 13-14. He was injured but if you are old enough to remember those seasons it took players a month to catch crosby in scoring. He managed to taje 1 art ross 1 hart 2 lindsays out of his peak. Would be much more. Be dissapointed in the injuries. Not the player

 

[sr edler]

How is Matthews supposed to be this otherworldly competition for scoring titles, guy is lucky if he can outscore his own line-mate.

 

[Matsun]

By the way, 2021 was McDavid's best season.

I think 20-21 is a bit overrated, games played in 20-21 among the top 10 PPG players:

Player	GP	PPG	PACE
McDavid	56	1,88	105
Draisaitl	56	1,50	84
Panarin	42	1,38	77
MacKinnon	48	1,35	76
Marchand	53	1,30	73
Rantanen	52	1,27	71
Matthews	52	1,27	71
Marner	55	1,22	68
Kane	56	1,18	66
Barkov	50	1,16	65

Actual top 5 in scoring:

	GP	G	A	P
McDavid	56	33	72	105
Draisaitl	56	31	53	84
Marchand	53	29	40	69
Marner	55	20	47	67
Kane	56	15	51	66

Even if everyone is fully healthy this is awesome dominance, but it's inflated by McDrai being the only healthy top players. Kucherov also missed the entire season and Pastrnak was in a weird slump so McDavids dominance gets an extra boost.

I was hoping to see McDavid have an incredible playoffs but that didn't happen until 2021-22 when he took it easy in the regular season. Then when he scored 150 in 22-23 he had a bit of a drop again in the playoffs so I was starting to think he wouldn't be able to have a super season+super playoff combo until 23-24.

Games played in 23-24 among the top 10 PPG players:

Player	GP	PPG	Pace
Kucherov	81	1,78	146
McDavid	76	1,74	143
MacKinnon	82	1,71	140
Panarin	82	1,46	120
Pastrnak	82	1,34	110
Matthews	81	1,32	108
Draisaitl	81	1,31	107
Rantanen	80	1,30	107
Kaprizov	75	1,28	105
Miller	81	1,27	104

Actual top 5 in scoring:

Player	GP	G	A	P
Kucherov	81	44	100	144
MacKinnon	82	51	89	140
McDavid	76	32	100	132
Panarin	82	49	71	120
Pastrnak	82	47	63	110

The competition in 23-24 was really healthy while McDavid was the injured one. In 20-21 it was the opposite.

In 23-24 there is this stretch from November 24 to April 4th when everyone was firing on all cylinders:

	GP	G	A	P	PPG	EVP	+/-
McDavid	56	23	87	110	1,96	75	+40
MacKinnon	58	42	65	107	1,84	69	+30
Kucherov	56	30	74	104	1,86	69	+10
Panarin	59	35	49	84	1,42	55	+16
Matthews	57	49	29	78	1,37	57	+29
Pastrnak	59	35	42	77	1,31	56	+15
Draisaitl	56	33	43	76	1,36	47	+29

This is when McDavid would've run away with the scoring title but MacKinnon and Kucherov were healthy and unbelievable so they kept up.

If this was another season were Kucherov and MacKinnon miss a few games and McDavid is fully healthy then I think this could be seen as his best season. I really value that he got to have a super season and a super playoffs at the same time which is really rare even if he didn't walk away with the hardware because of how insane his competition was. I think the monster covid season is a bit overrated because he and Draisaitl were the only healthy players and the playoffs where disappointing.

TLDR: My top 3 McDavid seasons:
1: 22-23
2a: 20-21
2b: 23-24

 

[Staniowski]

How is Matthews supposed to be this otherworldly competition for scoring titles, guy is lucky if he can outscore his own line-mate.

I wouldn't say Matthews is otherworldly, but he was better than anybody Gordie Howe was facing in the early 1950s, i.e. better than Ted Lindsay.

The fact that there are currently several guys better scorers than Matthews shouldn't obscure the fact that he is a great scorer. And it clearly underlines how much better the offensive talents are today compared to the early '50s. Exponentially better.

 

[Staniowski]

Not just the war but the formative years being the Great Depression likely played a major role as well.

Although like the Jagr thread this is a very backhanded way to really discuss that McDavid’s Art Ross competition is very difficult.

I'm not sure the extent hockey was affected by the Great Depression and World War II, but I think the most important point is that hockey pre-1950 never had very much talent at any point, going back to the origins of the sport. It's a different leagues than what we have in recent decades.

 

[Staniowski]

The strength of McDavid’s competition is a night and day difference, even to the latter part of the 50s. This is why McDavid is a better peak player, and it shouldn’t be all that controversial to assume this is the case. The same could probably be said for many current superstars such as Crosby, Malkin, MacKinnon and Ovechkin quite honestly.

Yeah, they're different leagues. Compared to today's NHL, the early '50s was something dramatically inferior. There's so much less talent.

There's no possibility of Howe (or Beliveau) winning a scoring title today.

 

[Staniowski]

Not just the war but the formative years being the Great Depression likely played a major role as well.

Although like the Jagr thread this is a very backhanded way to really discuss that McDavid’s Art Ross competition is very difficult.

I'm not sure what your reference to Jagr is about, but his age cohort, say from 1969 to 1974 birth years, is very strong and deep in talent, maybe the best in hockey history. Plus, Lemieux, Yzerman, etc. a bit older (plus Gretzky).

The issue, of course, with these guys is all the injuries.

 

[The Panther]

There's no possibility of Howe (or Beliveau) winning a scoring title today.

Even if this is true, it has nothing to do with your point in this thread. The issue as you've framed it is Howe or Beliveau winning scoring titles against competition in their own era, not winning them today.

By the way, you still haven't addressed my question: If Howe won Art Rosses because of weak competition in his birth cohort, how was Howe then the top scoring NHL player from 1960 to 1970 (a period ending almost a quarter-century into his career)?

 

[ThreeLeftSkates]

Everyone who knows anything and has eyes knows that McDavid's competition for scoring titles has been mediocre and that JackSlater is an extremely handsome devil. Anybody who is anybody knows that. People in the past also all agreed precisely with what I'm saying.

I never thought of you that way.