Goal scorers

[TheBig08]

So I’m posting this thread to see yhall opinions on who the best goal scorer of all time is and who are yhall top 10 goal scorers in order are. If you have a reason or explanation behind your choices let me know or if you have stats you want to share, share them.

Me personally I think Alex ovechkin is the best goal scorer of all time and my top 10 in order are

1. Alex ovechkin
2. Mike bossy
3. Mario lemuiex
4. Pavel bure
5. Wayne Gretzky
6. Bobby hull
7. Brett hull
8. Maurice Richard
9. Gordie Howe
10. Auston Matthews

My reason for my choices are stats that I found but it’s a lot so I don’t feel like sharing and Matthew’s is in there because I feel like he will make the top 10 I just don’t know where so he’s #10.

Let me know yhall thoughts

Click to read more...

 

[bobholly39]

Greateast goal-scorers ever: (greatest is a mix between pure ability and actual accomlishments):

Tier 1:

1. Ovechkin
2. Gretzky
3. Lemieux
4. Bobby Hull

Tier 2:

5. Maurice Richard
6. Goride Howe

Tier 3:

7. Mike Bossy
8. Brett Hull
9. Phil Esposito
10. Auston Matthews
11. Pavel Bure

If we were ranking "best" instead, I'd have Lemieux #1. Bossy might go up too (if not for injuries/half a career, he'd rank highest on greatest too). Ovchkin is probably #2.

Regarding Auston Matthews - I'm not sure exactly how high he will reach. But he's off to a fantastic start. I used to think his ceiling was tier 3 - now I think he could reach tier 1. You can never predict decline - some players fall off a cliff unexpectedly, and some dont, so we'll see how his career shapes out.

 

[Michael Farkas]

Lemieux is 1 for me because of the variety of ways that he was an elite finisher. Wrist shot, one timer, backhand, breakaways, penalty shots, mid-long range/in close, early adapter to low angle and bank shots 20+ years before it became popularized, etc.

Also because of his elite playmaking prowess, as a balanced attacker, goalies can't purely commit to his shot.

 

[rmartin65]

I’ll bite; what’s the argument for Bure over a lot of those names? Gretzky being the big one. Fun player for sure, but Bure isn’t one of my top ten.

Lemieux
Gretzky
Ovechkin
Bobby Hull
Maurice Richard
Russell Bowie
Gordie Howe
Brett Hull
Charlie Conacher
Phil Esposito

 

[DitchMarner]

I'm not sure I'd have Matthews above Stamkos or Selanne yet.


Top ten finishes in goals:

Matthews: 1, 1, 1, 2, 3

Selanne: 1, 1, 1, 2, 3, 10

Stamkos: 1, 1, 2, 2, 2, 4, 7, 9


Ovechkin is the most accomplished. Best is more subjective - I personally don't care at all about things like shot volume and diversity of goals when assessing goal scoring, but some do.

 

[tabness]

Of my awareness, Lemieux and Brett Hull the best, Gretzky and Ovechkin have more right to be called greatest given records and longevity and all that but at their bests, shift by shift, can't top Brett Hull and Mario

 

[sr edler]

Variance of how and when you score your goals is obviously absolutely crucial. I saw a stat from some season back where Auston Matthews had 6 hat-tricks in the RS, all of them on non-playoff teams.

Hate on Bure as a fun player all you guys want, but guy scored multiple hat-tricks on Patrick Roy and had streaks in the playoffs where he was an absolute beast. This is not something either Matthews or Stamkos has been even close to replicate.

For all the stereotypes of Brett Hull being just a big shot, guy actually had a sneaky ability to score in all kinds of different ways, whether Brian Holzinger was dancing by the play or not.

I agree with Mike up thread about Lemieux being the best all-time goal scorer, btw.

 

[rmartin65]

Variance of how and when you score your goals is obviously absolutely crucial. I saw a stat from some season back where Auston Matthews had 6 hat-tricks in the RS, all of them on non-playoff teams.

Hate on Bure as a fun player all you guys want, but guy scored multiple hat-tricks on Patrick Roy and had streaks in the playoffs where he was an absolute beast. This is not something either Matthews or Stamkos has been even close to replicate.

Is it hate to call a player "fun" or to say he isn't a top 10 goal-scorer? I like Bure a lot, he was fun to watch. I remember being a teenager and seeing on YouTube that skate to stick move he did on a breakaway and trying it in practice the next day (and having to skate laps for it). But I don't think he was a top 10 goal-scorer.

According to a sporcle quiz (so it could be wrong, haha), something like 39-40 players scored more goals on Roy. Are we adding Owen Nolan to this discussion? And according to the NHL website, Bure has the T-10th best playoff goal scoring run. Tied with Zach Hyman, behind Steve Payne. Obviously, Bure was better than those statistics show, but they aren't strong support, in my opinion.

 

[TheBig08]

I’ll bite; what’s the argument for Bure over a lot of those names? Gretzky being the big one. Fun player for sure, but Bure isn’t one of my top ten.

Lemieux
Gretzky
Ovechkin
Bobby Hull
Maurice Richard
Russell Bowie
Gordie Howe
Brett Hull
Charlie Conacher
Phil Esposito

If you look at bures stats if he stayed healthy and played longer he would have most likely passed Gretzky. He probably wouldnt pass ovi tho because he would have as much longevity most likely.

 

[TheBig08]

Are we adding Owen Nolan to this discussion?

I just want to know yhalls opinion on who the best goal scorer of all time is and and who are thanks top 10 of all time in order are.
I’ve given mine at the top.

 

[TheBig08]

If we were ranking "best" instead

I am ranking the best

 

[rmartin65]

If you look at bures stats if he stayed healthy and played longer he would have most likely passed Gretzky. He probably wouldnt pass ovi tho because he would have as much longevity most likely.

What if Bobby Hull and Gordie Howe never played in the WHA?

What if Stamkos never got injured?

What if Richard and Conacher played 80 game seasons?

There is a lot of what-ifs we can do historically. I think it is unlikely that Bure would have maintained his pace for the 600+ more games he would have had to play to catch Gretzky (but not Ovechkin?).

I just want to know yhalls opinion on who the best goal scorer of all time is and and who are thanks top 10 of all time in order are.
I’ve given mine at the top.

I gave mine in the post you quoted above.

It's a fun (not hate!) topic. I just find the inclusion of Bure odd.

 

[TheBig08]

What if Bobby Hull and Gordie Howe never played in the WHA?

What if Stamkos never got injured?

What if Richard and Conacher played 80 game seasons?

There is a lot of what-ifs we can do historically. I think it is unlikely that Bure would have maintained his pace for the 600+ more games he would have had to play to catch Gretzky (but not Ovechkin?).

I gave mine in the post you quoted above.

It's a fun (not hate!) topic. I just find the inclusion of Bure odd.

If Bobby hull kept playing he probably would have get 800 something goals but would have not passed Gretzky. Howe he would have got more goals idk how many but the reason he’s only #9 is because he had to play so many games. And if stamkos never got injured he would have been on pace for 800 something goals but he probably wouldn’t have had as much longevity as ovi so he wouldn’t pass Gretzky. And Richard probably would have passed Gretzky it’s just for me the era he played in is such a long time ago but I put him in my top 10 so I give him credit for being top 10 all time. And I wasn’t trying to be mean or anything I just wanted explain my answer because know a lot of people will find that odd.

 

[JackSlater]

I'd say that Lemieux is the best, Ovechkin and Bobby Hull are in the conversation and possibly Richard too if I squint.

As this is about who is best at a skill and not just comparing resumes, I have no problem with Bure ranking pretty high on someone's list. I wouldn't put him at 4 but he's among the best ever at this particular thing.

 

[sr edler]

Bure and Roy played in different conferences for most of their careers, so of course other players would compile more goals over the years, like say an Andreychuk or whoever.

Hyman wouldn't have scored as many goals if he was the #1 guy on his line instead of merely being an extended arm to McDavid. His season last season was almost identical to 93–94 Graves, though at least Graves was a sneaky two-way guy.

 

[DitchMarner]

Variance of how and when you score your goals is obviously absolutely crucial. I saw a stat from some season back where Auston Matthews had 6 hat-tricks in the RS, all of them on non-playoff teams.

Hate on Bure as a fun player all you guys want, but guy scored multiple hat-tricks on Patrick Roy and had streaks in the playoffs where he was an absolute beast. This is not something either Matthews or Stamkos has been even close to replicate.

For all the stereotypes of Brett Hull being just a big shot, guy actually had a sneaky ability to score in all kinds of different ways, whether Brian Holzinger was dancing by the play or not.

I agree with Mike up thread about Lemieux being the best all-time goal scorer, btw.

In my opinion, the importance of goal scoring variety really depends on whether a player can maintain consistent scoring or not.

Players tend to have patented ways of scoring. Ovechkin has the PP one-timer, Stamkos has that as well, Matthews scores most of his goals on wrist/snap shots.

I said in that Sedins thread that I like watching players like Bure; I do enjoy and appreciate variation and creativity in goal scoring. But to me, the numbers speak for themselves. If we're talking about guys who have led the League in goals and placed among the top goal scorers a number of times, they've proven to be consistently effective goal scorers. I don't really give out style points.

Speaking of Bure, at this time, you can argue that like Selanne and Stamkos, he hasn't been clearly surpassed by Matthews as a goal scorer. He also led the League in goals three times and has five meaningful seasons for goal scoring (finishes of 1, 1, 1, 3 and 5). But unlike Auston, he has a big playoff goal scoring year.

 

[sr edler]

I don't really give out style points.

Who's arguing anyone over anyone else because of style?

Variance isn't about style it's the ability to score in multiple different ways, which is of great help if someone manages to lock one of your lanes down.

If whipping the puck like Devo works like a clockwork in the RS against bottom half teams, then yay that's great, but perhaps it is, I dunno, harder to do that in the playoffs against better and tighter teams.

 

[Michael Farkas]

I don't really give out style points.

Nothing to do with "style", everything to do with adaptability. Then we have to balance the juxtaposition of player evaluation and the team concept.

Example: Teams would sometimes just shadow Ovechkin in his one-timer spot to not allow it. Creates basically a 4 on 3 (bigger offensive advantage). Doesn't necessarily make Ovi a better goal scorer, might make the Caps more productive though.

 

[rmartin65]

Hate on Bure as a fun player all you guys want, but guy scored multiple hat-tricks on Patrick Roy and had streaks in the playoffs where he was an absolute beast. This is not something either Matthews or Stamkos has been even close to replicate.

Bure and Roy played in different conferences for most of their careers, so of course other players would compile more goals over the years, like say an Andreychuk or whoever.

Neither Stamkos nor Matthews had a chance to score hat tricks against Roy, so I don't know if counting opportunities here is a fair way to go.

 

[MadLuke]

I feel like not something they replicated was about the playoff (or Olympics...) beast part, not scoring hat trick on Roy.

Greatest Ovechkin, the one you want to receive that Gretzky pass in 1987 Mario Lemieux, the one you want to be able to send in an playoff overtime Maurice Richard.

Pavel Bure feel perfectly legitimate to have in this conversation, eye test, numbers, "longevity" in the sense 1988 world junior, 1992 rookie season, the 2000 panthers to the 2002-2003 Rangers, it is not a short amount of time to be really good at scoring goal at that level.

 

[WarriorofTime]

I gotta go with Ovechkin for his consistency of production in a very hard to score goal scoring era (big pads, defensive systems, etc.) and how badly he ran away from his own era in terms of goal scoring.

 

[Sentinel]

Ovechkin / Gretzky
Hull Sr / Howe / Richard
Lemieux / Bossy / Esposito / Hull Jr
Bure / Selanne

 

[Hockey Outsider]

Greateast goal-scorers ever: (greatest is a mix between pure ability and actual accomlishments):

Tier 1:

1. Ovechkin
2. Gretzky
3. Lemieux
4. Bobby Hull

Tier 2:

5. Maurice Richard
6. Goride Howe

Tier 3:

7. Mike Bossy
8. Brett Hull
9. Phil Esposito
10. Auston Matthews
11. Pavel Bure

If we were ranking "best" instead, I'd have Lemieux #1. Bossy might go up too (if not for injuries/half a career, he'd rank highest on greatest too). Ovchkin is probably #2.

Regarding Auston Matthews - I'm not sure exactly how high he will reach. But he's off to a fantastic start. I used to think his ceiling was tier 3 - now I think he could reach tier 1. You can never predict decline - some players fall off a cliff unexpectedly, and some dont, so we'll see how his career shapes out.

My list would be fairly similar. I have the same names in my top six. I wouldn't move Richard and Howe into a lower tier than the first four.

I agree with Ovechkin in first (if the question is "greatest" goal-scorer). For what it's worth, I think Lemieux was the "best" (ie most natural talent, most variety, most "era proof", etc).

I'd have Bossy, Hull and Esposito (in some order) in the next tier down.

10th spot is wide open. Every candidate has weaknesses. It very well could be Matthews one day. My unconventional pick for the #10 goal scorer would be Jagr.

 

[jigglysquishy]

Goalscoring lists always seem very skewed to the 90s. Lemieux and Hull, no argument. Bure, Selanne, Jagr. 5 of the top 15 all in their prime within 10 years? If you go back to 1985 and add Gretzky and Bossy too. Does it make sense that 50% of the top 15 have their primes from 1985-2000? Does it make sense to only have one pre 1950 prime player? 1890-1944 produces no one, 1995 has 5, and 2005-2025 only has 3?

The early era guys definitely get missed. Conacher leading 5 times in 6 years.

Bill Cook came to the NHL at 30 and still lead the league in goals twice while finishing second twice. He lead the WCHL twice too. By contemporary opinion, an absolute goal scoring monster.

Edit: that's not even getting into Russell Bowie, who should absolutely be in the conversation

 

[Overrated]

Goalscoring lists always seem very skewed to the 90s. Lemieux and Hull, no argument. Bure, Selanne, Jagr. 5 of the top 15 all in their prime within 10 years? If you go back to 1985 and add Gretzky and Bossy too. Does it make sense that 50% of the top 15 have their primes from 1985-2000? Does it make sense to only have one pre 1950 prime player? 1890-1944 produces no one, 1995 has 5, and 2005-2025 only has 3?

The early era guys definitely get missed. Conacher leading 5 times in 6 years.

Bill Cook came to the NHL at 30 and still lead the league in goals twice while finishing second twice. He lead the WCHL twice too. By contemporary opinion, an absolute goal scoring monster.

Edit: that's not even getting into Russell Bowie, who should absolutely be in the conversation

Well it was the strongest era after all.