I'd put Mike Grier's trading ability at average to slightly above average. Overall though, I'm satisfied.
GMMG's trades thus far?
- Thread starter landshark
- Start date
weastern bias
worst team in the league
He's mostly been very solid
I had questions when he first took the job, didn't love the return on Burns, hated the Kunin deal, didn't understand the Balcers buyout and not qualifying Dahlen
Ever since the Meier trade it's been straight bangers, he's squeezed blood from a stone the way he liquidated assets off our nothing roster
Take a look at the team entering the 2022-23 season and tell me with a straight face that you, at that moment in time, saw the assets to aquire 3 extra first round picks over the next 3 drafts
His asset plays have been masterful and the tank has been an incredible success, now the hard part begins, we'll see how it goes
I had questions when he first took the job, didn't love the return on Burns, hated the Kunin deal, didn't understand the Balcers buyout and not qualifying Dahlen
Ever since the Meier trade it's been straight bangers, he's squeezed blood from a stone the way he liquidated assets off our nothing roster
Take a look at the team entering the 2022-23 season and tell me with a straight face that you, at that moment in time, saw the assets to aquire 3 extra first round picks over the next 3 drafts
His asset plays have been masterful and the tank has been an incredible success, now the hard part begins, we'll see how it goes
weastern bias
worst team in the league
I disagreeI'm sure we'll all still find a way to disagree!
hohosaregood
Banned
- Sep 1, 2011
- 32,660
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Kinda feels like Grier's cultivating an opposite rep from DW. Like DW was "the dentist" but Grier seems like he'll work out a deal if there's something there.
TheBigDrunkPanda
Registered User
- Oct 19, 2021
- 984
- 983
I look forward to revisiting this at seasons end and in the next 2 years because by then all the trades should’ve run their course
naturally I’m just preparing my arguments now with plenty of lead timeI'm sure we'll all still find a way to disagree!
At the end of the day all he cares about is making moves that makes this team better. All this talk about squeezing other GMs or bailing a team out doesn't mean squat to him. He simply doesn't care so long as the move(s) he makes benefit the on-ice product.
At this point it's mostly up to the players to make the team a competitive one and then it'll be his job again to turn a competitive team into a legit contender.
weastern bias
worst team in the league
We are still relying on Grier not to jump the gun and over commit to long term money for supplementary players before we know we are ready to compete, a rebuild can be sabotaged before it's even started by trying to accelerate too quickly and patching holes before the core pieces are ready to take the next step
I'm not worried about it because Grier looks like he's taking the long, methodical road, but an ancy GM might feel their seat getting hot and try to fix a team that's rounding from last place to bottom 10 and thinks they can push into contention by throwing a huge contract at a free agent, it's why I'm not particularly high on the idea of signing Draisaitl (if he would even entertain coming here), giving an all offense forward $13M for 8 years 2 years before your cornerstones' ELCs are up could end in disaster
Juxtaposer
Outro: Divina Comedia
I think this perception is strictly related to the state of the teams each GM ran. When you are fine-tuning your contender, you have to be more discerning. When you are trying to improve your basement dweller, you don't have to be as delicate because almost anything (including Ceci) is an upgrade on what we have.
If Grier is still targeting Ceci and Goodrow types in three years, I'll have a problem with it.
Fair. I do think he made it clear and continues to make clear that he has no intention of rushing this rebuild.
Alaskanice
Registered User
He was good at keeping long term contracts at bay. We had players that deserved them but he helped them understand.
He also made San Jose a place to play and live in. San Jose was a powerhouse for years.
He respected his players and often involved them in where they were traded.
He was good at so much more than you give him credit for.
He wasn’t perfect but he was easily one of the best.
He was only good at those shorter term contracts when thornton was on the team putting up point per game seasons and only asking for 3 year contracts at free agent time. Easy to keep an internal cap number when you have an unselfish team player leading the way.
Agreed, I always thought it was odd that suddenly he gave out an 8 year deal to Burns because the team was widely praised for the manner in which they did business and how they were never hamstrung by long deals. Once that one was inked, it was impossible to stop the rest of the players from also wanting max deals.
Grier has done a solid job selling high. He sold ek at the apex. He sold Meier when he had lots of value. He even sold Hertl relatively high (one knee tweak and his value is negative). He’s done well in the timing of his moves and build a great farm in a very short period of time.
However, The roster is now wholly turned over. Cooch and pickles (and Ferraro I suppose) are the only ones left from 3 years ago. Since cooch and pickles may not really play for the sharks again, Ferraro is the last real inherited everyday player.
The team is now Grier’s team, pretty much. While the rooks may take time to develop, everything from here on is Grier’s work, so the breaking down of the roster is over.
Now begins the much harder part of building a good team, adding the right pieces, getting the right leaders, building the right culture, navigating the cap, taking risk on longer term bigger money contracts, and facing much much higher expectations and definition of success (for DW, expectations were basically cup or bust for 15 years! That’s very tough, lots of pressure, and very low margin for error…)
It’s not THAT hard to dump highly talented players like ek, Hertl, burns, or Meier. He did reasonably well, but there is always a market for a Norris winner or clearly skilled and good size top 6 forward. It’s much much much harder to build a roster than tear one down, stink, and get high draft picks.
It’s not that hard to add minor guys on short deals like grundstrom dyllandrea or benning etc. it’s not hard because the risk is so low that if it turns out like Lindbom did, no one really cares as the team would stink anyways.
But it’s much much harder to take risk on term deals. It’s much harder to sign higher end ufas. Much harder to draft well and maintain a good roster when picking consistently in the mid to late 20s.
Dw faced these challenges for 20 years. Grier has not faced a single one yet. It’s those actions that will define him over time.
However, The roster is now wholly turned over. Cooch and pickles (and Ferraro I suppose) are the only ones left from 3 years ago. Since cooch and pickles may not really play for the sharks again, Ferraro is the last real inherited everyday player.
The team is now Grier’s team, pretty much. While the rooks may take time to develop, everything from here on is Grier’s work, so the breaking down of the roster is over.
Now begins the much harder part of building a good team, adding the right pieces, getting the right leaders, building the right culture, navigating the cap, taking risk on longer term bigger money contracts, and facing much much higher expectations and definition of success (for DW, expectations were basically cup or bust for 15 years! That’s very tough, lots of pressure, and very low margin for error…)
It’s not THAT hard to dump highly talented players like ek, Hertl, burns, or Meier. He did reasonably well, but there is always a market for a Norris winner or clearly skilled and good size top 6 forward. It’s much much much harder to build a roster than tear one down, stink, and get high draft picks.
It’s not that hard to add minor guys on short deals like grundstrom dyllandrea or benning etc. it’s not hard because the risk is so low that if it turns out like Lindbom did, no one really cares as the team would stink anyways.
But it’s much much harder to take risk on term deals. It’s much harder to sign higher end ufas. Much harder to draft well and maintain a good roster when picking consistently in the mid to late 20s.
Dw faced these challenges for 20 years. Grier has not faced a single one yet. It’s those actions that will define him over time.
DWs trades are the reason we are terrible now. Trading our futures year after year.
Grier has done the opposite. Now we have Celebrini and Smith. Be happy
Could not disagree more. DW was a trading genius. One the greatest trading GM of the last 25 years.
Name a single trade since Gretzky that was better than the jumbo deal?
Burns too.
Boyle as well.
The toskala deal that became Logan couture???
Even ek was brilliant, just didn’t work out. At the time EVERY person, I mean all of them, were amazed that Doug landed him. Norris was a midlevel prospect and the pick was supposed to be in the 20s.
How quickly we forget that we legitimately competed for a Stanley cup just about year for nearly 20 years!!! That’s insanely good. I think during DW’s tenure, the Sharks won like top two or three most games in the whole league. Yes, they never won the cup but winning the actual cup is alot of luck too, which is why the vast majority of presidents trophy winners don’t win it. Had we won a cup or two, people would love DW, but that was largely unlucky too.
To be able to win so consistently for so long without the benefit of top picks or the like is insanely good. Like early unmatched good.
We are in this mess for a few reasons:
1. Dw left. I bet he would fixed it without a full scale suckfest. Could definitely be wrong here but I had a lot of faith in him.
2. Ek resign was the big mistake.
3. Covid. DW was a master of cap management. He understood that an 8x8 deal was a lot more expensive up front than on the back. He knew that people wrongly judge 8m five years from now as equally expensive as 8m today. Dw knew that was wrong and knew that he could count on the cap going up 2-3m per year.
Then covid hit and all that went out the window and suddenly the sharks are in cap trouble and the deals that woulda been fine values became bad ones. Think, how would cooch or burns or ek deals look if the cap was 100+m now? Not nearly as expensive.
4. Bad drafting. Yes dw traded picks a lot, but he drafted well until the end. The shakes missed a lot. They got practically nothing from 2018, 2019, and 2020 drafts and only wound from 2021.
Those draft years have been coming into the league and the Sharks got practically nothing. From 2018-2021, the Sharks drafted 30 guys and got one regular nhler. ONE named Eklund. That’s it. One. That means three straight years from 2018-2020, 21 picks, zero nhl regulars. Ouch.
Even going back to 2016, Ferraro is the only regular nhl aside from Eklund and Norris. Slim Pickens over 6-8 years of drafting.
Alaskanice
Registered User
Individually some of his trades look good value wise. It’s the amount of futures combined from all of the trades that left us where we are now. That combined with signing terrible contracts. He just went way too all in pleasing casual fans who have no grasp on the value of draft picks and prospects.
I’m not gonna name every bad trade because that will be an endless task but I will mention that we could have had Stuzle…
Yes. You are correct. We could have had Stutzle and Norris... Of course you could also make a strange argument that the EK trade (and sign) is why we have dickinson in the system, but I digress....
Obviously, not every trade works out the way its intended. There were many many trades during DW's tenure that did not work out. The easiest proof is that many of the trades were designed to push us over the edge to a cup, and obviously that didnt happen.
However, Two points worth making:
1. In 2014-15, the sharks well underperformed and missed the PO's for the first time in over a decade. I remember fans clamoring for a rebuild wanting to move on from the jumbo/patty era as they were now well into their mid 30s (I remember because I was one of them!). Niemi was expiring. The locker room was in disarray. The coaching was bad. They had minimal future. Things did not look good....
DW didnt panic. He coulda sold it all and gone into stink mode for a decade. He didnt believe in that. He had pride, and he set a standard that losing was NEVER EVER EVER acceptable. So, he got a new coach, the captains C moved to pavs, he traded for martin jones, Signed Joel Ward and Joonas Donskoi, and the sharks were reborn coming within two wins from the SC. That, to me, was GMing at its absolute finest.
2. DW was very strategic with picks and I will say that any team that makes the PO's every year for nearly 20 years is going to have a hard time stockpiling talent in the farm. Unsurprising that Tampa's farm is so shallow or the bruins too. thats less a function of trading picks away as it is just being good for so long. It's hard to find top talent at the 27th overall or 59th overall picks.
DW had picks in the 1st round that were not dealt, they just didnt hit because its a much lower probability of hitting picking late. Mirco Mueller, Nicalay Goldobin, Ryan Merkley, Nick Petrecki, Jeremy Roy (1st pick in 2nd round), Ozzy Wiesbaltt... all first rounders(ish) that didnt pan out. Going into the 2nd round, the list is also very long (Kniazev, Bordy, Robins, Hamaliuk, Gambrell, Bergman, Rod, Boudreau, Wrenn, Doherty...)
So, you can argue that the drafting itself (not trading away, but the picking itself) was poor. I think thats very true expecially since 2016, and I think that contributed alot to where we are. is that on DW? yes, it is. So I will give you that, but I think its hard to pan gold consistently with such poor tools. Eventually, you are going to miss out alot.
But he also traded to ADD picks some too: thats how he got cooch.
All in all, Was DW perfect? No. but the sharks were pretty reat for 20 years, so to hate the guy because of how those 20 years ended seems pretty off to me. Frankly, I miss the excitement we had every year under him.
Now it's grier's turn to make the sharks good for 20 years. He came in, 2 years laster, we're the worst in the league, and he's sold everybody he inherited pretty much (save cooch and pickles). Now, he has to build the winner. I can tell you, picking well is a key part of it, but its not everything. It's the easy part when you have #7, #4, #1, or even #11 overall picks and lots more other high picks you can get from unloading talent.
The hard part is putting the right coach, the right culture, the right UFA's, making the right strategic trades, and signing the right term and $ contracts to the right guys, as well as resigning those ELC expiring guys to the right deals. it;s responding to adversity when something doesnt go according to plan, knowing how to cut losses but also when to double down and stay the course. It's understanding you city and what you can offer that other teams cant. Its understanding the humanity of each player and what drives them and how to build a locker room. it;s about deft trading and making sure that you get proper value and target the right guys. its about future vs. present analysis. It's about cap management and predicting how the cap will change over the next 3, 5, or 10 years. It's about working with the Baraccuda to ensure that there is the right leadership in place there and cohesion between the farm and the NHL. It's abut finding diamonds in the rough that other teams may have overlooked.
All of that is the real skill of a GM, so we'll know soon if he is good or not based on those criteria and based on fan base expectations of cup or bust that DW faced every year for 20 years as a result of his own success.
Askarov - Edstrom/1st/Chrona - A. Gets us the 2nd highest rated Goalie Prospect in the NHL (1st is Wallstedt) for our future. Edstrom would've had a tough time beating out Bystedt for the 3C role in a few years. Protected the Vegas 1st which is important. Easily his best trade ahead of Walman.
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Tw1ster
Registered User
If we're talking straight up, I'd say it's a B-. We really could use that buyout/retention slot right now to either to tell Vlasic to hit the road or pawn Ceci off at the deadline.
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Patty Ice
Registered User
His own Miika Kiprusoff, maybe Filip Forsberg are up there. Not better than Jumbo but the others are debatable. These were young assets so it’s not a fair comparison to most of the above since they were proven when traded.
Regardless I agree with what you said. DW was a master of buying with quantity talent that was either soured on by the GM (Thornton) or soured on their GM (Boyle). What an undervalued market. I got to watch playoff hockey for decades because of DW.
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Shark Finn
∀dministrator
Well, obvious selection, seeing that Grier hasn't added Ozolinsh to the roster yet..Clicked on it then decided to switch to NOT but the "Change your Vote Button" was Missing. LOL
The ChiChi latest trade was what was closest to my mind. When I Knee-Jerk Reacted.
