Post-Game Talk: [GM55] Canucks defeat Maple Leafs | 2-1 | Hronek & Boeser | Dead Leafs on the Dirty Ground

[Wisp]

This is kind of a sweetheart thing for Rick to say

 

[David71]

Need a right-hander, unfortunately.

Perhaps Willander is that guy but I don't know if Forbort - Willander is the sauce either, it would depend on how good Willander with the puck at the NHL level.

Or perhaps they can run:

Hughes - Myers
Forbort - Hronek
Metey - Willander

why does everyone keep penciling in willander... i dont get it. hes a kid he might get a 2-3 game sample. other than that nothing special. he probably gets sent down to abby. if you play him the team burns a year off his ELC . remember the last time vancouver did that with someone. need to find another right hander to push everyone down. hughes myers, marcus petterson/hronek, forbort+++?

 

[sensodyne17]

why does everyone keep penciling in willander... i dont get it. hes a kid he might get a 2-3 game sample. other than that nothing special. he probably gets sent down to abby. if you play him the team burns a year off his ELC . remember the last time vancouver did that with someone. need to find another right hander to push everyone down. hughes myers, marcus petterson/hronek, forbort+++?

The easy answer without overthinking is he might be better than Soucy and Myers right now. Icing the best possible roster for the playoffs is the goal.

He’s probably the second best skater behind Hughes on the back-end.

A Forbort-Willander third pairing would make way more sense than a Forbort-Soucy pairing because Willander could drive that pair whereas Soucy is handling the puck like a grenade these days.

 

[David71]

The easy answer without overthinking is he might be better than Soucy and Myers right now. Icing the best possible roster for the playoffs is the goal.

He’s probably the second best skater behind Hughes on the back-end.

A Forbort-Willander third pairing would make way more sense than a Forbort-Soucy pairing because Willander could drive that pair whereas Soucy is handling the puck like a grenade these days.

we shall see what mgmnt has in store i dont think they're done.. they can still make the playoffs add a couple of more scoring forwards and 1 more depth Defenseman.

 

[Dirtyclapper]

Tocchet speaking in the post game about EP40 "he needs a little bit of a push, and you got him tonight", "I just want him to have fun", "I want him to hang out with his buddies and rejuvenate", "he's gotta understand pressure is fun sometimes". To me that's confirmation he's not injured, he's just lost his passion for the game.

 

[God]

hronek has had awful numbers away from hughes since last season to now. that's just reality. 43% corsi/41%fenwick/44%xG. he's had 100 minutes with soucy and those numbers are all in the 30 percent region which is just outrageously bad.

beyond Hughes, this forbort pairing so far is the first hronek D paring out of 5 non-Hughes D pairings* that has those corsi/fenwick/xG percentages above 50%. that's great to see! but this is the first time we're seeing this from hronek away from hughes. and with hughes out and with hronek's trade protection kicking in soon, it's brilliant to see. one of the most important things we could do for the rest of the season is contiune to keep hronek away from hughes (who obviously has shown he does not need hronek) and see how hronek goes.

and of course that's a pretty good thing for forbort to have on his resume too.

*more than 20 mins. see attached for the current NST numbers.

it's not really reality because you are over relying on WOWY numbers, which do not capture the full picture. they're fine in a pinch but if you're looking at sum totals of these pairings without considering games that these players were actually paired together, it's just wrong. he's played almost 1600 minutes with hughes since last season, and you're using stats that capture probably ~100 minutes give or take with some other defense partner that isn't remotely the same level of usage because it's often scramble time. on an icing, he can't change, so he's stuck with whoever's out there. maybe hronek came on from a quick on the fly change to replace someone during a quick zone clearance, but the other team starts pressing again, and he gets stuck out there. that's more likely to happen over an 82 game season that pretty easily adds up to 100 minutes, which is probably the type of data you're referencing.

you really need to look at how many games hronek had without being paired with hughes last year. from this article it's 4 games with a non-hughes defense partner, and it looks like he did pretty well.

Incidentally, in those four games where he actually spent a full game with a different defence partner, Hronek carried a 58.7% CF% and a 58.7% xGF% in his minutes with those partners.

In other words, in games where Hronek actually played a full game with a defence partner other than Hughes, his underlying numbers are actually fantastic — better than his numbers with Hughes. But, again, we’re talking about very small sample sizes.

 

[Zaddy91]

Nice win. Always good to send the TO fans home unhappy and we seem to have penchant for doing that. A game worth paying for.

Good

Pettersson - most hopeful thing coming out of this game for the Canucks. Played in the trenches all game and made some pretty offensive plays. You wonder if Tocchet coaching has contributed to his conversion to defense first player. In this one, he was contributing both ways. Now he'll likely go and star for team Sweden and we will left still trying to unravel the mystery this player is.

Myers - thought for some of the game he was trying to do too much but in the end you were happy he was. Was again a horse and huge over the last part of the game. All those who want Myers gone yesterday should start recognizing his value. He could have got much more elsewhere but gave the team a break and is playing his heart out for them. However, next mistake he makes you can bet the "let's make fun of Myers because like we are so humerous doing that" group will be out in full force.

Garland - energizer bunny deserves an A. Heart and soul and effective near every shift. Even coming off injury made a great effort and created numerous chances. Others hopefully will start putting away some of those chances.

M. Pettersson - the more you see the more you like. Too bad he didn't score but his use of the stick to break up plays is so high level. Reminds me of Tanev who I sure as well wish we still had. Jump from having someone like Pettersson on your defense instead of having someone like Desharnais is quantum.

Lankanin - won the game with the late saves. Probably shouldn't have come down to that since the Canucks should have put it away earlier (however Woll was outstanding). Plus the late call, leaving them two men short, was absolute crap. Deserved a star for his play - especially given the situation. Also would say Demko continued look excellent up to the injury.

Hronek - has turned into a stud in the last few weeks. Fears about the off-season deal now look groundless. Was best two way d-man for the team.

Sherwood - seems to help out EP1. Like others, he got a quick and hard fore-check on the Leafs. Guy brings it every shift and was a thorn in the side of TO in this game. Like him to put away chances a little better but he was forcing the play and, at least, getting them

Others

Chytil - once again saw his upside but he needs to start converting. Question has always been with him, is he style without substance. Need point production out of him.

O'Connor - another solid game. Certainly skates at an NHL level.

Forbert - Never liked this player elsewhere but he is contributing. Becoming a player who you could easily live with on you bottom pairing.

Aman - a little more in the play tonite. His line produced some chances and got decent o-zone time. Keep wishing for a break through where he becomes a Suter type player. Maybe a little too hopeful here.

EP2 - keep rubbing my rabbit's foot and knocking on wood that what we are seeing isn't some temporary abberation. Time reduced in this game but for the most part competed well with some upper level NHL players. It's not hard imagining as top 4 material.

Team continues to win without Hughes. Thought when Hughes went out we just couldn't survive. Right now you can have some expectation that when he does return, this defense may be pretty set.

Down side is, of course, is Demko. You worry about if it is the same knee as earlier. Also, I wonder if the team gets some more cap space if he is out long term.

Always scrolling until I hit your write up. Go Canucks Go.

 

[ExarKun80]

Huh?

Better defence directly correlates with better goaltending.

Firing Juulsen to the moon, putting Soucy on the third pair and adding MP and DPetey has completely stabilized this defense.

When you completely revamp your D core (in a good way), the on-ice performance shows.

We are doing all this without Hughes and three new roster additions with no practice time. Give credit where credit is due.

Not quite since Demko has been playing terrible for his standards before getting back to form in the last 3 games. The better defence helps but with the goaltending from 10 days ago we would have lost this game 3-2 or 4-2. The best example is the Sharks game where Demko bailed us out. That game should have been an L if not for Demko.

You guys need to stop jumping to conclusions after a 1 week and judge the moves at the end of the season. It the same shit every time. We win 2-3 game and we are back then we lose 2 games and the team sucks. That shit was good for canucks board and reddit. I expect more common sense here.

 

[me2]

We're so back.

The team is likeable again.

They are winning but there streak won't last unless they can increase scoring. Hopefully allvin been add a bit more tip six skill.

 

[kanucks25]

why does everyone keep penciling in willander... i dont get it. hes a kid he might get a 2-3 game sample. other than that nothing special. he probably gets sent down to abby. if you play him the team burns a year off his ELC . remember the last time vancouver did that with someone. need to find another right hander to push everyone down. hughes myers, marcus petterson/hronek, forbort+++?

Willander will get his 9 games to burn a year of his ELC. It's pretty much standard practice for big names coming out of college, it's a cookie that the organization gives the player to entice them to sign. Not to mention we don't have a legit 3rd RD right now so it's not like a solidified roster player is getting scratched to get Willander in.

The easy answer without overthinking is he might be better than Soucy and Myers right now. Icing the best possible roster for the playoffs is the goal.

He’s probably the second best skater behind Hughes on the back-end.

A Forbort-Willander third pairing would make way more sense than a Forbort-Soucy pairing because Willander could drive that pair whereas Soucy is handling the puck like a grenade these days.

Willander being better than Myers this season is wishful thinking. Myers has been very good in a top-4 if not a top-2 role pretty much since Hronek got injured and he was moved away from Soucy.

We don't even know if Willander is NHL ready yet.

 

[VIPettersson]

why does everyone keep penciling in willander... i dont get it. hes a kid he might get a 2-3 game sample. other than that nothing special. he probably gets sent down to abby. if you play him the team burns a year off his ELC . remember the last time vancouver did that with someone. need to find another right hander to push everyone down. hughes myers, marcus petterson/hronek, forbort+++?

from another perspective is it possibly souring a relationship early on by not burning off a year of ELC? It seems now a days a lot of these players expect that. For what he could be in the long term I would rather not nickel and dime him early on and hope he gives us a break later.

 

[Rick Rocket]

k. so u didn't, or don't know how to evaluate a player

Tis a joke

 

[ChilliBilly]

We basically replaced half the defense overnight. Two Petey's plus flipping Soucy from bad LHD Soucy to decent RHD Soucy.

Given how freaking bad the defense was before, it really can't be overstated how drastic this difference was and it shows tremendously on the ice.


At the very least it solidifies that you don't trade him now at rock bottom value. He will be back at some point. If you insist on trading him you have to wait until he's back in full form and you can actually get appropriate value instead of crippling the franchise selling him for pennies now.

We definitely get more out of him when Hughes is out, he's holds the puck more and he's way more assertive in both ends of the ice. I don't mind the tradeoff that happens when we put him with Hughes because I want to see Hughes dominate as much as humanly possible but it's true that there is a tradeoff.

Re - EP40. The usual dilemma ... when a player is performing below what you know he is capable of, you don't trade him because you won't get full value. But when he returns to form, you don't trade him because he performing well.

The reality is every player should be available in a trade, as long as you get exceptional value for that player. The exact opposite of what we did for nearly 10 years.

Edit - And on a side note - I called for the Canucks to do something like go 8 - 1 -1 in their next 10 games after the WA win. right now they are 6 - 1 - 1. Just need to beat beat Vegas and Utah to get there.

And it looks like it's going to be a 2 horse race in the West for the last wild card spot. Vcr vs Cal ... unless one of us goes on a major tear, or a complete dive.

 

[IComeInPeace]

“Fast and fierce, determined and disciplined, Vancouver won 73.5 per cent of puck battles and cashed in on a late Brock Boeser power-play goal (with ex-Canuck Oliver Ekman-Larsson in the box, no less) to take the points.”

“Full credit. They deserved this one, just like they deserved the last one.”

“That Vancouver dominated the first 20 despite being unable to dress MVP Quinn Hughes and suddenly swapping in backup Kevin Lankinen for Thatcher Demko is an encouraging sign they can dig in for the stretch run”

That’s ^ from the Leafs beat-writers article on the game last night. He was being very generous with his praise of the Canucks and there was none of the ‘the Leafs played bad’ in his coverage.

Maple Leafs drop final game of otherwise successful road trip: 'It's a positive'

Solid trip, rough ending. But as they enter the 4 Nations Face-Off break, the Maple Leafs can take solace knowing first place in the Atlantic is a reasonable goal — and that they can play much better than they did Saturday.

www.sportsnet.ca

 

[F A N]

why does everyone keep penciling in willander... i dont get it. hes a kid he might get a 2-3 game sample. other than that nothing special. he probably gets sent down to abby.

I think it's just expectations. If Willander is a stud then it's quite par the course to sign him and burn a year off his ELC. But I think the fact that the 2022 Dmen drafted in the top 10 (Mintyukov aside) have been spending most of the time in the AHL may have adjusted expectations when it comes to actually being in the NHL as opposed to the AHL.

if you play him the team burns a year off his ELC .

It's a case by case basis, but I've come to think that it's better to burn a year off the ELC of a top prospect. It's just safer. Willander isn't projected to step in and put up big offensive numbers, but people forget that top draft picks sign bonus-laden ELCs. Quinn Hughes's cap hit during his ELC was not under $1M and would have been higher had we not burned a year off his ELC. If you have a stud like Hughes his ELC finishes after two full seasons and isn't eligible for an offer sheet. If you have a prospect whose development is slow to average you can easily bridge the player for 2 years for cheap.

Makar is actually the perfect example of how burning a year off his ELC was a great/lucky decision. Makar signed a long term contract and then won a Norris. Had the Avs not burned a year off his ELC he could have been negotiating a long term contract as the reigning Norris trophy winner.

remember the last time vancouver did that with someone.

I don't recall the last time it "bit us" so to speak. The last time was in 2022-23 when we signed Hirose and McWard. The last time we did that with a drafted prospect is, I believe, with Quinn Hughes.

 

[ExarKun80]

We need to try and finish above 8 to not get murdered by the Jets in the first round when they are healthy and rested. We match well against Oilers and they'd be the ideal opponent since they'd have all the pressure.

 

[tyhee]

...
As for Virtnanen.....well who knows......is he even playing hockey any more?

He's got 13 points in 37 games, good for 11th in scoring on the 14th best team in the 14 team German elite league.

 

[andora]

We don't even know if Willander is NHL ready yet.

Pikachu Face

 

[JT Milker]

I’m at the point where I think WoWY is mostly noise for players who play most of their time together. Spot minutes and games here and there really doesn’t give enough of a sample evened if the minutes add up over time

WOWYs are basically worthless, riddled with statistical errors because you can’t assume all other variables are equal.

 

[JT Milker]

it's not really reality because you are over relying on WOWY numbers, which do not capture the full picture. they're fine in a pinch but if you're looking at sum totals of these pairings without considering games that these players were actually paired together, it's just wrong. he's played almost 1600 minutes with hughes since last season, and you're using stats that capture probably ~100 minutes give or take with some other defense partner that isn't remotely the same level of usage because it's often scramble time. on an icing, he can't change, so he's stuck with whoever's out there. maybe hronek came on from a quick on the fly change to replace someone during a quick zone clearance, but the other team starts pressing again, and he gets stuck out there. that's more likely to happen over an 82 game season that pretty easily adds up to 100 minutes, which is probably the type of data you're referencing.

you really need to look at how many games hronek had without being paired with hughes last year. from this article it's 4 games with a non-hughes defense partner, and it looks like he did pretty well.

In other words, this.

 

[TruGr1t]

why does everyone keep penciling in willander... i dont get it. hes a kid he might get a 2-3 game sample. other than that nothing special. he probably gets sent down to abby. if you play him the team burns a year off his ELC . remember the last time vancouver did that with someone. need to find another right hander to push everyone down. hughes myers, marcus petterson/hronek, forbort+++?

Most likely due to the fact the team is rumoured to be trying to move Soucy and absolutely no one wants to play Juulsen again. If they don’t trade Soucy, then the need for Willander on the right-side isn’t as big an issue.

 

[IComeInPeace]

And it looks like it's going to be a 2 horse race in the West for the last wild card spot. Vcr vs Cal ... unless one of us goes on a major tear, or a complete dive.

I wouldn’t even concede defeat to catching Colorado or L.A. ahead of us either if in fact our team has found it’s game.

We are now 8 games over .500.

Colorado is at 11 games over .500, and L.A. is at 12 games over .500.

The difference between us and Calgary (3 games) is the same as the distance between Colorado and us.

An injury or slump with a significant player (or in our case EP coming out of one) could lead to a big change over the remaining 27 games of the season.

 

[rypper]

I don't see a way that Tocchet has essentially two rookie defenseman in his lineup, at least to start the season.

Right now he's still sheltering junior Pettersson but maybe that trust will grow over the remainder of the season. It he starts using him on the pk etc.

They won't have 3 defense that don't pk on the roster together. (Hughes, EP25, Willander.)

 

[Hit the post]

I think it's just expectations. If Willander is a stud then it's quite par the course to sign him and burn a year off his ELC. But I think the fact that the 2022 Dmen drafted in the top 10 (Mintyukov aside) have been spending most of the time in the AHL may have adjusted expectations when it comes to actually being in the NHL as opposed to the AHL.


It's a case by case basis, but I've come to think that it's better to burn a year off the ELC of a top prospect. It's just safer. Willander isn't projected to step in and put up big offensive numbers, but people forget that top draft picks sign bonus-laden ELCs. Quinn Hughes's cap hit during his ELC was not under $1M and would have been higher had we not burned a year off his ELC. If you have a stud like Hughes his ELC finishes after two full seasons and isn't eligible for an offer sheet. If you have a prospect whose development is slow to average you can easily bridge the player for 2 years for cheap.

Makar is actually the perfect example of how burning a year off his ELC was a great/lucky decision. Makar signed a long term contract and then won a Norris. Had the Avs not burned a year off his ELC he could have been negotiating a long term contract as the reigning Norris trophy winner.


I don't recall the last time it "bit us" so to speak. The last time was in 2022-23 when we signed Hirose and McWard. The last time we did that with a drafted prospect is, I believe, with Quinn Hughes.

Doesn't hurt that our international amateur scouts have been generally solid for this organization. I'd have a more healthy dose of skepticism had the prospect been scouted out of the WHL, OHL, etc., given how "strong" our amateur scouts have been in our own backyard (granted maybe things will be better with this new management team).

 

[TruGr1t]

I don't see a way that Tocchet has essentially two rookie defenseman in his lineup, at least to start the season.

Right now he's still sheltering junior Pettersson but maybe that trust will grow over the remainder of the season. It he starts using him on the pk etc.

They won't have 3 defense that don't pk on the roster together. (Hughes, EP25, Willander.)

EP25 won't play over Forbort, it's a right-side spot that's open if they move Soucy. If they do move him, it's either Willander or Juulsen. Assuming Forbort, Myers, M.Pettersson, and Hronek are in the line-up you don't have a PK issue.