Post-Game Talk: [GM39] Canucks lose to Canadiens in OT | 4-5 | Miller(2), Lekkerimaki, & DeBrusk | Snatching Defeat From the Jaws of Victory

[kanucks25]

The Canucks have been near the top of the league both years in xGA and at limiting high danger chances against, so the available data says otherwise.

Lankinen has been fine (average-ish) and Silovs terrible, whereas Demko was elite and that amounts to a huge difference.

I can accept that people can see things otherwise on the magnitude of the effect but I can’t realistically see how the difference isn’t at least 4-5 points in the standings so far, and more likely more than less.

I’m a bit surprised everyone dismisses this. Overall, we have not gotten good goaltending this year.

I think on the whole, goaltending has been at best average. So I don't disagree with the overall notion.

But IMO Lankinen himself has been better than "just fine" overall. He's had maybe a handful of bad games but pretty much every goalie that has started as many as he has (other than maybe Helly) has had some off nights.

And I believe the private numbers are more kind to Lankinen than the public, as the private numbers do a much better job of accurately assessing the environment around the goaltender and quality of scoring chances.

Not to mention, if I was to list the issues the team is having right now, it'd be like:

1. The defense
2. Whatever the hell is going on with Pettersson and Miller both on and off the ice
*giant chasm*
3. Goaltending

 

[F A N]

I think on the whole, goaltending has been at best average. So I don't disagree with the overall notion.

But IMO Lankinen himself has been better than "just fine" overall. He's had maybe a handful of bad games but pretty much every goalie that has started as many as he has (other than maybe Helly) has had some off nights.

And I believe the private numbers are more kind to Lankinen than the public, as the private numbers do a much better job of accurately assessing the environment around the goaltender and quality of scoring chances.

Not to mention, if I was to list the issues the team is having right now, it'd be like:

1. The defense
2. Whatever the hell is going on with Pettersson and Miller both on and off the ice
*giant chasm*
3. Goaltending

I think Lankinen has been good and I agree that I think not having a reliable backup has hurt Lankinen's performance as well. It's really unfortunate that Demko got hurt.

 

[Diversification]

Zadorov is making $5 million; Myers, Forbort and Desharnais are making $6.5 million between them. Myers and Forbort are $5 mil together.

Just look at that and tell me what you'd rather do with that money. This is what always happens when teams try to spread the money around on lesser guys instead of paying the guy who deserves it and fits.

My guess is that the coaches wanted Forbort and Desharnais and Myers. They overestimated their ability to coax quality minutes out of them. They probably think that because they had some limited success rehabilitating Myers last season that they were certified Ent whisperers that could extract surplus value from these undervalued behemoths. But, alas.

This would explain why Tocchet is confused about us blowing leads, that he thinks it's about players just needing to step up and make a play. But the sad fact is that Juulsen, Forbort and Desharnais very much want to make a play but they are slow and lumbering and possess poor puck skills, which means they won't make a play or if they do it will be under duress and will be poorly executed as a result.

I'm certain that the coaches are coming around in their thinking but it's too late to really do anything about it now. Trade market is barren, teams smell Allvin's desperation and therefore smell blood.

Have to hope that they internalize what's gone wrong and take carefully calibrated and deliberative steps to rectify things for next season.

 

[kanucks25]

So because I'm still sick a week later (longest cold ever) and I didn't get to watch the first two periods, here's another breakdown of the highlights.

In the game against the Flames, I showed how Desharnais being uncomfortable leaving the front of the net led to way too much time and space in the slot. Here's pretty much the exact same thing on the 1st Habs goal.

Here's the breakout on Lekk's goal. Rarely do you see a pass from the defensive corner straight to the blueline on the opposite side but there was no Hab in sight. Good recognition by Boeser drawing Carrier towards him (who should have backed off) to create the 2-on-1.

2nd Montreal goal. Not sure why all 5 guys were defending so slow and passively. Montreal had time and space to skate around the zone like it was a powerplay.

Huggy falls asleep here, doesn't track the guy behind him. Myers doesn't feel comfortable stepping up towards the Hab coming down the slot because he knows there's a backdoor play wide open.

4th Habs goal was mostly just an unlucky bounce off Hughes but it could have easily been Gallagher scoring from dead in the slot. Sasson clips a skate with a Hab causing him to stumble, so Myers decides to leave the front the of the net to cover a guy in the corner because I don't know why. Hutson was not going to score from the corner here.

10 minutes left in the 3rd in a tie game, Soucy does his best Juulsen impression by whiffing on a hit he had no business attempting. Lankinen saves us the loser point.

 

[ManVanFan]

They both had shit rosters too, but that has nothing to do with it.

The team is the middle of the pack while being decimated with injuries. If we were somewhat healthy we'd likely be firmly in a playoff spot like we were before the injuries.

So I fail to understand the disconnect or what the problem is. Once we get healthy we'll be fine.

If once we're healthy we're still shitting the bed you can point to the coach.

So far under Tocchet this team has not underperformed relative to their roster on paper. If anything they have overperformed on the whole.

The exact same thing was said about Bruce and Travis. Still got fired. It's mostly a personal narrative whether you think the coach is doing well or not.

MSL has been talked about being fired in MTL for a while now. There are positives there. Where are the positives for Tocchet? He needs a stellar roster or he's mid at best. Canucks coaching staff's inability to get the players to perform together instead of always relying on individuals to win them games, isn't going to work.

 

[kanucks25]

The exact same thing was said about Bruce and Travis. Still got fired. It's mostly a personal narrative whether you think the coach is doing well or not.

MSL has been talked about being fired in MTL for a while now. There are positives there. Where are the positives for Tocchet? He needs a stellar roster or he's mid at best. Canucks coaching staff's inability to get the players to perform together instead of always relying on individuals to win them games, isn't going to work.

Who ever said the Travis and Bruce teams overperformed? Green's teams were shit during his entire tenure and Bruce had a good 2/3rds of a season run likely due to a coach bump.

Positives for the Tocchet? The Canucks were a top-5 team for pretty much the duration of the entire season last year and only dipped out of it towards the end when Demko got hurt and Pettersson became a ghost (still finished 6th overall).

This season still no Demko (and obviously rusty in the 7 games he has played) and on most nights an AHL defence, still in a playoff spot.

I think the problem might be you are grossly overestimating this roster.

 

[Big zZz]

Who ever said the Travis and Bruce teams overperformed? Green's teams were shit during his entire tenure and Bruce had a good 2/3rds of a season run likely due to a coach bump.

Positives for the Tocchet? The Canucks were a top-5 team for pretty much the duration of the entire season last year and only dipped out of it towards the end when Demko got hurt and Pettersson became a ghost (still finished 6th overall).

This season still no Demko (and obviously rusty in the 7 games he has played) and on most nights an AHL defence, still in a playoff spot.

I think the problem might be you are grossly overestimating this roster.

Management has made some good moves but they aren't without flaws. That being said between those bad moves and key injuries, this roster isn't as good on a nightly basis as last year.

 

[ManVanFan]

Who ever said the Travis and Bruce teams overperformed? Green's teams were shit during his entire tenure and Bruce had a good 2/3rds of a season run likely due to a coach bump.

Positives for the Tocchet? The Canucks were a top-5 team for pretty much the duration of the entire season last year and only dipped out of it towards the end when Demko got hurt and Pettersson became a ghost (still finished 6th overall).

This season still no Demko (and obviously rusty in the 7 games he has played) and on most nights an AHL defence, still in a playoff spot.

I think the problem might be you are grossly overestimating this roster.

It was a staple for most of Van media for years.

I think you might be grossly overestimating Tocchet's ability. Clearly Tocchet needs a perfect roster to get the same results that Bruce did with half the roster.

 

[tantalum]

So pissed at Hoglander man threw away a good game to take a penalty that EVERYONE KNEW THEY'D CALL!!

Entire arena is complaining about phantom calls - they're obviously going to call the actual penalty. Never letting that slide

Jesus man.

Your team is suffering with injuries - there's zero margin for error right now... you cant do that

I personally don't think it was a penalty at all. Hoglander is literally standing still. He does not have to move out of the way to allow the Habs player into the play. Interference is when you step out of the spot you "own" on the ice to intercept a player. Habs player initiated contact with a stationary player, goes down easy and gets the call.

It was a bad call. Especially with what was let go that game. And as someone mentioned in the game thread if Hoglander has his stick it never gets called. Which tells you it's a bad call because interference isn't based on whether you have a stick or not.

With that said...Juulsen needs to be out of the lineup.

Desharnais and Forbort have settled down some but you do not want both in the lineup at the same time (let alone the same pair).

Myers was full chaos mode. Leading the rush. Hitting posts. Losing board battles in his own end because he puts himself under pressure by making the wrong decision. What a wild player.

Up front I think many had decent to good games. However, there were 4 or 5 who were passengers and when you are this shorthanded you can't have those passengers.

Hutson...looked good but honestly a lot of what he did he would have been stopped with a blueline with even average speed. That said, he took advantage of that and if that wasn't available then he might have found something else to exploit.

Through it all, what is remarkable is the canucks are in a playoff spot. The season isn't remotely a write off and even if this trip goes poorly it still won't be.

 

[kanucks25]

I think you might be grossly overestimating Tocchet's ability. Clearly Tocchet needs a perfect roster to get the same results that Bruce did with half the roster.

?

Tocchet's team went to game 7 of round 2... when did Bruce get the "same results"?

And you're calling the roster "perfect" yet you're not grossly overestimating it? ok lol

 

[ManVanFan]

?

Tocchet's team went to game 7 of round 2... when did Bruce get the "same results"?

And you're calling the roster "perfect" yet you're not grossly overestimating it? ok lol

When did Bruce get a full season? He had a .649 during his first season with a mostly healthy roster. Tocchet went .665 in a full season with a mostly healthy roster, an improved roster. Bruce didn't have Hronek or Soucy. He had OEL and Schenn. Probably shouldn't get into how much better the bottom 6 is compared to the previous regime's.

 

[ManVanFan]

Winning is hard, but Canucks making it impossible. MON was 6th loss in 19 games after carrying lead into 3P.JT Miller: “It seems like we're getting overwhelmed with the lead a little bit. I don't know… we've done it a handful of times now.”

Didn't they have less than 6 losses when leading after the 2nd all of last season?

 

[Quinning]

Lekkermaki has a great release. Nice to see him convert.

 

[bossram]

Tocc has got to get over his hard-on for big long guys.

You can't be playing the Sea of Juulsen over Brannstrom because they're "reliable defensively" or "safe" when they're blowing two goal leads every game.

 

[theguardianII]

This will be the last non playoff team for a quick bit.

The last 10 games only 2 were against PO teams
2 RW, 1 SOW, 3 L, 4 OTL

Miller got a few points eh?

 

[TruGr1t]

Tocc has got to get over his hard-on for big long guys.

You can't be playing the Sea of Juulsen over Brannstrom because they're "reliable defensively" or "safe" when they're blowing two goal leads every game.

I'm not sure how much of it is a preference for Juulsen over Brannstrom, and how much of it is his hard-headed stubbornness not to play guys on their offside. In which case, it's basically Forbort/Brisebois versus Brannstrom (though I don't think he'd ever play Brannstrom with Hughes due to size concerns). Either way, I'd agree.

 

[Bertuzzzi44]

A lot of the folks blaming the defence but the forwards are not maintaining offensive zone time, can’t seem to win many board battles and when they do have puck possession they cough it up quickly, seem out of sync. Oilers went to game 7 of the Cup final with 4 crappy defencemen and the Panthers won the Cup with an average D Core, the Canucks team overall needs to be better, especially the forwards at maintaining puck possession with smarter puck control.

 

[Bleach Clean]

I’m a bit surprised everyone dismisses this. Overall, we have not gotten good goaltending this year.

They haven't, agreed.

My response was going to be that the more significant delta was in xGF, going from 13th to 32nd, but they haven't been burned by it like they have with goaltending. In fact, they are at an 18% surplus for GF/xGF (quite good).

 

[HabsAddict]

So because I'm still sick a week later (longest cold ever) and I didn't get to watch the first two periods, here's another breakdown of the highlights.

In the game against the Flames, I showed how Desharnais being uncomfortable leaving the front of the net led to way too much time and space in the slot. Here's pretty much the exact same thing on the 1st Habs goal.
View attachment 957522

Here's the breakout on Lekk's goal. Rarely do you see a pass from the defensive corner straight to the blueline on the opposite side but there was no Hab in sight. Good recognition by Boeser drawing Carrier towards him (who should have backed off) to create the 2-on-1.
View attachment 957542

2nd Montreal goal. Not sure why all 5 guys were defending so slow and passively. Montreal had time and space to skate around the zone like it was a powerplay.
View attachment 957546

Huggy falls asleep here, doesn't track the guy behind him. Myers doesn't feel comfortable stepping up towards the Hab coming down the slot because he knows there's a backdoor play wide open.
View attachment 957549

4th Habs goal was mostly just an unlucky bounce off Hughes but it could have easily been Gallagher scoring from dead in the slot. Sasson clips a skate with a Hab causing him to stumble, so Myers decides to leave the front the of the net to cover a guy in the corner because I don't know why. Hutson was not going to score from the corner here.
View attachment 957554

10 minutes left in the 3rd in a tie game, Soucy does his best Juulsen impression by whiffing on a hit he had no business attempting. Lankinen saves us the loser point.
View attachment 957560

And I thought I was bad...but you're worse! LOL

This season I got a 83" OLED (no blur, fantastic upscaling to 4k) and it renewed my love of the game for the finer details. I record the games and then spend 3-4 hours going through it with at least half is slow motion. "WTF" and "what is he thinking" are part of my curse vocabulary.

I see a lot of over-reaction to the game. You guys are not as bad as some think and let me dispel any notion that the opposition is a bottom dweller. It took a while for the team to gel, 31 games in fact, but look at who we beat the last 9 games. The game was hard nosed, high speed skating and your goaltender was great. Upgrade Juulsen and Desharnais and you will be fine.

BTW...Juulsen was one of ours and I thought he was a lock for top 4. He had some bad luck but he also runs with an Atari processor. He doesn't see the game well enough and he has no other special attributes to fall back on. I thought in time he would learn the games finer details enough but at 27, he's still a 7-8 on a good team. He's 6'2" and 210 pounds. He should of least adapted to a tougher defensive defenseman game. He is what he is at this point...

 

[kanucks25]

And I thought I was bad...but you're worse! LOL

This season I got a 83" OLED (no blur, fantastic upscaling to 4k) and it renewed my love of the game for the finer details. I record the games and then spend 3-4 hours going through it with at least half is slow motion. "WTF" and "what is he thinking" are part of my curse vocabulary.

I see a lot of over-reaction to the game. You guys are not as bad as some think and let me dispel any notion that the opposition is a bottom dweller. It took a while for the team to gel, 31 games in fact, but look at who we beat the last 9 games. The game was hard nosed, high speed skating and your goaltender was great. Upgrade Juulsen and Desharnais and you will be fine.

BTW...Juulsen was one of ours and I thought he was a lock for top 4. He had some bad luck but he also runs with an Atari processor. He doesn't see the game well enough and he has no other special attributes to fall back on. I thought in time he would learn the games finer details enough but at 27, he's still a 7-8 on a good team. He's 6'2" and 210 pounds. He should of least adapted to a tougher defensive defenseman game. He is what he is at this point...

I used to keep my own scoring chance stats a few years back because I don't like the public data and how everybody on the ice gets credited with a chance for or against regardless of how involved in the play there were, if at all.

But it was too hard to do with just the PVR; sometime in the near future I do want to buy whatever online package allows you to watch the games on demand and revisit that. Shitty camera and replay angles also make it a bit tougher.

As for the team, yeah it's fine when it's healthy. We have an AHL level bottom-4 right now and there's no hiding that no matter what system you play. Forward group isn't exactly good enough to pick up the slack, just not built that way.

 

[HabsAddict]

I used to keep my own scoring chance stats a few years back because I don't like the public data and how everybody on the ice gets credited with a chance for or against regardless of how involved in the play there were, if at all.

But it was too hard to do with just the PVR; sometime in the near future I do want to buy whatever online package allows you to watch the games on demand and revisit that. Shitty camera and replay angles also make it a bit tougher.

As for the team, yeah it's fine when it's healthy. We have an AHL level bottom-4 right now and there's no hiding that no matter what system you play. Forward group isn't exactly good enough to pick up the slack, just not built that way.

I would die and go to heaven if I had an overhead view.

I was watching my favorite defenseman in the AHL who is turning into a turnip. He was facing the board and did a reflexive around the boards pass that was picked off. If he did nothing more then turn around and see he had a man in the slot completely wide open. In that occasion, they had a wider shot but if I had an overhead, it would tell me clearly how wide open he was.

The upside is that those camera angles are available to the coaching staff so they can work on it with the players.

For me, "scouting" players is just as much fun as watching games. With my new tv, I can do it way better then before. Not like being in the games (in AHL games, I change seats every period), but much better. If i had those multi-camera angles, I would be in heaven.

 

[Bertuzzzi44]

Garland’s play has dropped off compared to the start of the season.