Speculation: GM Search: Part II (Tim Murray to be named GM)

[Revelate]

Craig Patrick on WGR now.

Poor guy.

 

[Ethan Edwards]

Craig Patrick Special Assistant/Advisor? Didn't see that coming.

Me neither. I can't speak to his work in Columbus, but the rest of his resume is somewhat legendary. Miracle on Ice Part 1 (U.S. v. USSR) and Part 2 (Ron Francis & Ulf Samuelsson for John Cullen & Zarley Zalapski). I'd love to hear how that unfolded...and why nobody caught wind of it. Very nice.

 

[Minister of Offence]

I think you got one of the best talent evaluators in hockey. Hockey scouting can be seen as a crap shoot sometimes, but Tim Murray is seemingly always on the mark.

You got him the night after Karlsson had 20 shot attempts in the first half of the game and I swear could have had 5 goals. Cody Ceci played another 20 + minute night looking like a potential star. Mark Stone made a high end slap pass to Kyle Turris, who is turning into a high end center after being traded in a gutsy move for a guy that may end up out of the league ultimately. Curtis lazar was a high end 18 year old for the world junior team.

He didn't need a pick better than 15 for any of that. And there's more.

If this guy was the guy I'm charge of these moves, and most believe he is, you'll be getting players in all rounds of the draft. And your 1st and 2nds may be a guarantee.

In a couple years we may see no one was as strong from 2008-13. In the past he's made first round move ups for Marc staal, Corey perry, and karlsson.

 

[Ruckus007]

No, Pegula was impressed with Patty after the meal. They had some more back and forth and the position of President of hockey ops was created.

Basically it was a gut feeling hire. I know you don't like it but they do happen. Nothing really unusual about that.

None of this changes the possibility that it was a capriciously-created position. It makes me concerned over what kind of Hockey Ops structure Pegula believes in. If that dinner was with Colin Campbell, would Campbell be running the team now?

Nolan was Patty choice to coach before he even came over here for that game. Patty had called him about a surprise he had for him (or words to that effect) while he was still in Latvia. Nolan watched the game knowing he was already the new head coach.

That you think Nolan was hired because he was at the game is absurd.

Can you provide some substantiation for this statement because I haven't heard this story before (and, BTW, it doesn't exactly come off as reassuring if what you're saying is correct). When Nolan was introduced, I remember him saying he was in town to watch Jordan play.

I'll admit I'm being somewhat facetious in that I don't really think that they saw Nolan in the stands and decided to give him the HC job, but I'm still dubious about how Nolan specifically got the job. And since Pegula has a clear sentimentality to the organization's past, it's another concern.

You are paranoid.
Suspicious? Of what exactly?

How am I paranoid, is that a pejorative to someone who would have the audacity to have doubts about Terry Pegula's ownership?

After watching this organization from Feb 22, 2011 to now I have yet to see any kind of forethought with the moves that have been made, it seems like the team is run completely on the fly (and this Murray/Patrick thing isn't exactly alleviating my concerns). I'm hopeful a new hockey operations team fixes that problem.

 

[26CornerBlitz]

Murray on WGR now.

 

[Dubi Doo]

Not me, I don't think there is an untouchable player in this organization (hard to touch, sure, but none untouchable).

I just hope Murray can get good value for his trades. It's still unknown whether this guy can make solid trades value wise. There's only one way to find out. It's still an uneasy feeling.

 

[Dubi Doo]

I think you got one of the best talent evaluators in hockey. Hockey scouting can be seen as a crap shoot sometimes, but Tim Murray is seemingly always on the mark.

You got him the night after Karlsson had 20 shot attempts in the first half of the game and I swear could have had 5 goals. Cody Ceci played another 20 + minute night looking like a potential star. Mark Stone made a high end slap pass to Kyle Turris, who is turning into a high end center after being traded in a gutsy move for a guy that may end up out of the league ultimately. Curtis lazar was a high end 18 year old for the world junior team.

He didn't need a pick better than 15 for any of that. And there's more.

If this guy was the guy I'm charge of these moves, and most believe he is, you'll be getting players in all rounds of the draft. And your 1st and 2nds may be a guarantee.

In a couple years we may see no one was as strong from 2008-13. In the past he's made first round move ups for Marc staal, Corey perry, and karlsson.

That makes me feel a bit better...

 

[Ruckus007]

I just hope Murray can get good value for his trades. It's still unknown whether this guy can make solid trades value wise. There's only one way to find out. It's still an uneasy feeling.

Sure, but I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt until his track record starts being established.

I'll also say that, though maximizing asset value is obviously important, there is a fit/construction aspect to trades that I'm not sure Regier ever truly embraced. I'm willing to take a little bit less of a return on a trade if there is a logical reason for it, IMO.

 

[Ethan Edwards]

In the past he's made first round move ups for Marc staal, Corey perry, and karlsson.

While it was a stacked draft (2003), landing Getzlaf and trading up for Perry, both in the last half of the 1st round if memory serves, is borderline genius (reports have it that TM was behind both evals and instrumental in convincing folks to move up for Perry). It seems to be working out pretty well for Anaheim these days.

 

[Dubi Doo]

Sure, but I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt until his track record starts being established.

I'll also say that, though maximizing asset value is obviously important, there is a fit/construction aspect to trades that I'm not sure Regier ever truly embraced. I'm willing to take a little bit less of a return on a trade if there is a logical reason for it, IMO.

Agreed.

 

[Sabretooth]

I'll also say that, though maximizing asset value is obviously important, there is a fit/construction aspect to trades that I'm not sure Regier ever truly embraced. I'm willing to take a little bit less of a return on a trade if there is a logical reason for it, IMO.

Sekera for McBain+2013 2nd (Compher)?

 

[Savitar]

Murray is going to be amazing! I'm so excited! That Fan nailed it earlier. He is responsible for Curtis Lazar, Erik Karlsson, Mark Stone, Cody Ceci etc and he didn't even use a pick bellow 15. That's impressive!

Now with all of this picks at his disposal. And willing to build through the draft. This team is loaded already and is about to load up more and build a more promising future.

We still have Grigorenko, Ristolainen, Zadorov, Justin Bailey, JT Compher, Nick Baptiste, and Connor Hurly as high end prospects with loads of potential and we have a guy like Joel Armia who will be ready to step in next year and contribute right away! To go along with a strong core of Cody Hodgson, Tyler Myers, Tyler Ennis, Marcus Foligno, Zemgus Grigensoms and Mark Pysyk,

I am looking forward watching this team return to glory

 

[Zman5778]

Sekera for McBain+2013 2nd (Compher)?

I still don't understand why this trade is a flashpoint for so many.

McBain has played mostly competently and has certainly earned himself a new deal....and has firmly established himself as a bottom pairing guy with PP value....and could yet still flourish into a top 4 role with minutes and reducing a few mistakes.

Compher was IDed by the Sabres as a 1st round pick. From reports, they were desperate to get back into the first round to get him, and started actively trying to move up when the drafted reached the early 20s.


So from the Sabres POV, they traded a top 4 Dman for one that could be a top 4 and a pick that they valued as a 1st rounder.

 

[ZZamboni]

Patty on WGR a few minutes ago ....

Good, he won't name the guys he interviewed. Smart.

 

[Sabresfansince1980]

So from the Sabres POV, they traded a top 4 Dman for one that could be a top 4 and a pick that they valued as a 1st rounder.

The gap between Sekera and McBain is much wider than how you characterized it, but Compher can very well close that gap.

I'd have much rather used Sekera to move up to #5 as was rumored as a possibility, but I sure can't fault Regier for the deal that was completed. It was trading the present for the future, when (at the time of the trade) the future already included Ristolainen and Zadorov, and a pretty bad team during the few years of Sekera's prime.

 

[Ruckus007]

Sekera for McBain+2013 2nd (Compher)?

As an example of not maximizing trade value?

I see the argument, though I think the fact that Sekera is UFA at the end of his contract in two years and McBain is RFA means the cap considerations are not negligible. Not having to make a major decision on Sekera's next contract when you don't know when the team was going to be good again, I think, was actually a pretty smart decision.

EDIT: a couple of posts when up while I was writing this. I guess to summarize, Andrej Sekera by himself is probably better than McBain and the value of the 35th pick. But 1.) I agree that McBain has settled into a level of competency and 2.) the salary considerations of the swap favor a rebuilding team, which Buffalo obviously was at that point.

 

[Jame]

I still don't understand why this trade is a flashpoint for so many.

McBain has played mostly competently and has certainly earned himself a new deal....and has firmly established himself as a bottom pairing guy with PP value....and could yet still flourish into a top 4 role with minutes and reducing a few mistakes.

Compher was IDed by the Sabres as a 1st round pick. From reports, they were desperate to get back into the first round to get him, and started actively trying to move up when the drafted reached the early 20s.


So from the Sabres POV, they traded a top 4 Dman for one that could be a top 4 and a pick that they valued as a 1st rounder.

I think the frustrating part is that unlike Carolina, they weren't able to identify Sekera as an all around 1st pairing defensemen....

 

[Sabretooth]

I still don't understand why this trade is a flashpoint for so many.

McBain has played mostly competently and has certainly earned himself a new deal....and has firmly established himself as a bottom pairing guy with PP value....and could yet still flourish into a top 4 role with minutes and reducing a few mistakes.

Compher was IDed by the Sabres as a 1st round pick. From reports, they were desperate to get back into the first round to get him, and started actively trying to move up when the drafted reached the early 20s.


So from the Sabres POV, they traded a top 4 Dman for one that could be a top 4 and a pick that they valued as a 1st rounder.

That was kind of my point. I'm not saying it was a bad trade. Many posters here consider the trade an undervalued return for Sekera, and I am providing it as an example of the type of trade the poster I responded to claimed regier was reluctant to make.

 

[Jacob582]

Sekera will play better than Chara in the Olympics.

 

[Jame]

As an example of not maximizing trade value?

I see the argument, though I think the fact that Sekera is UFA at the end of his contract in two years and McBain is RFA means the cap considerations are not negligible. Not having to make a major decision on Sekera's next contract when you don't know when the team was going to be good again, I think, was actually a pretty smart decision.

Yea... imagine if we had to decide whether to re-sign a 28 yr old 1st pairing defensemen... the horror

The Sekera trade was a tear down/tank move... it significantly downgraded the team, but returned a 1st round caliber prospect.

McBain was a throw in... Carolina had trouble trying to give him away for a year.

 

[joshjull]

None of this changes the possibility that it was a capriciously-created position. It makes me concerned over what kind of Hockey Ops structure Pegula believes in. If that dinner was with Colin Campbell, would Campbell be running the team now?

Yes I'm well aware of your hang up over Patty's hiring. I guess you feel better framing it as the decision of a man given to whimsy. As opposed to an inspired choice based on gut instinct.

Can you provide some substantiation for this statement because I haven't heard this story before (and, BTW, it doesn't exactly come off as reassuring if what you're saying is correct). When Nolan was introduced, I remember him saying he was in town to watch Jordan play.

Why would I waste my time verifying this when you obviously don't care.

I'll admit I'm being somewhat facetious in that I don't really think that they saw Nolan in the stands and decided to give him the HC job, but I'm still dubious about how Nolan specifically got the job. And since Pegula has a clear sentimentality to the organization's past, it's another concern.

Its fairly well known that hiring Nolan was Patty's idea because he wanted someone to evaluate the roster. Someone he trusts. That would be Nolan. That you think its because Nolan was going to around at the time of the firings is again, absurd.

How am I paranoid, is that a pejorative to someone who would have the audacity to have doubts about Terry Pegula's ownership?

Give me a break.

After watching this organization from Feb 22, 2011 to now I have yet to see any kind of forethought with the moves that have been made, it seems like the team is run completely on the fly (and this Murray/Patrick thing isn't exactly alleviating my concerns).

One decision thats been made since Pegula took over could be classified as "on the fly", to use your words. The hiring of Patty L.

I'm hopeful a new hockey operations team fixes that problem.

I find that hard to believe since their hiring came, in your mind, from the fruit of the poisonous tree (aka the Patty L. hiring).




Pegula has a dinner meeting with Patty and comes away impressed. They talk further and Pegula really becomes impressed and wants to bring Patty on board. Then Patty is named President of hockey ops. We have absolutely no idea what was discussed in those meetings. But I don't think its a stretch to say Patty's ideas on how to do things were probably front and center at some point.

Since Patty took over, he has been running the show as it were. They've done a great job getting things back on track with the kids. Our most important resource going forward. He's also conducted an extensive search and hired what looks like a highly qualified GM candidate. As well as adding a vet hockey guy to advise the department. If that isn't enough to get you away from your "suspicions" nothing will.


I'm curious why all the melodramatic handwringing to begin with. Were you a big Darcy fan and you're mad he got fired? Or is it something else?

 

[Jame]

EDIT: a couple of posts when up while I was writing this. I guess to summarize, Andrej Sekera by himself is probably better than McBain and the value of the 35th pick. But 1.) I agree that McBain has settled into a level of competency and 2.) the salary considerations of the swap favor a rebuilding team, which Buffalo obviously was at that point.

probably?

 

[SabresFan26]

Murray is going to be amazing! I'm so excited! That Fan nailed it earlier. He is responsible for Curtis Lazar, Erik Karlsson, Mark Stone, Cody Ceci etc and he didn't even use a pick bellow 15. That's impressive!

Now with all of this picks at his disposal. And willing to build through the draft. This team is loaded already and is about to load up more and build a more promising future.

We still have Grigorenko, Ristolainen, Zadorov, Justin Bailey, JT Compher, Nick Baptiste, and Connor Hurly as high end prospects with loads of potential and we have a guy like Joel Armia who will be ready to step in next year and contribute right away! To go along with a strong core of Cody Hodgson, Tyler Myers, Tyler Ennis, Marcus Foligno, Zemgus Grigensoms and Mark Pysyk,

I am looking forward watching this team return to glory

Armia is far from a lock to step in next year.
After Zadorov, the rest of those prospects are far from "high end"
We still need to add elite skill through the draft for another year or two and acquire high end top 5 picks.

 

[SabresFan26]

probably?

He is one of the best defenseman in the East this year. He is in the top 10 in goals scored by defenseman and forms a top pairing with Faulk in Carolina.

 

[La Cosa Nostra]

Murray is going to be amazing! I'm so excited! That Fan nailed it earlier. He is responsible for Curtis Lazar, Erik Karlsson, Mark Stone, Cody Ceci etc and he didn't even use a pick bellow 15. That's impressive!

Now with all of this picks at his disposal. And willing to build through the draft. This team is loaded already and is about to load up more and build a more promising future.

We still have Grigorenko, Ristolainen, Zadorov, Justin Bailey, JT Compher, Nick Baptiste, and Connor Hurly as high end prospects with loads of potential and we have a guy like Joel Armia who will be ready to step in next year and contribute right away! To go along with a strong core of Cody Hodgson, Tyler Myers, Tyler Ennis, Marcus Foligno, Zemgus Grigensoms and Mark Pysyk,

I am looking forward watching this team return to glory

Not sure if serious. Return to glory? This team has never won a cup, what glory have we achieved? And Grigensoms is a new one.I am not sure Armia will even be able to come up next year and contribute right away, he has been mediocre in Rochester.