Post-Game Talk: GM 45: Canucks def. Wings 2-1 (SO) - Clinch Playoff Berth

[ChilliBilly]

It's kinda funny watching the much vaunted 'Detroit Model' disintegrate before our own eyes.

I was saying it for a good while before Lidstrom retired...he was the 'Detroit Model'. having one of the greatest defenceman of all time

fair comment. arguably the 2nd best dman ever.

 

[biturbo19]

Their model was their ridiculous puck movement.

Lidstrom was obviously a massive part of that, but losing Rafalski in 2011 was just about as big.

That team has consistently for the past 20 years had 2-3 elite puck-moving defenders (Murphy, Schneider, Fetisov, Chelios, etc. at various points) and right now they're left with 0. And their transition game has not surprisingly gone to hell.

Same way our offense has never been quite the same (and the Sedins' production has dropped off) since Ehrhoff left.

While i agree, the loss of Ehrhoff was huge in the Sedins' apparent 'decline' in production...i certainly wouldn't insinuate that Ehrhoff's loss was parallel to the lose of Lidstrom. I mean...losing one of the greatest defencemen of all time is a big blow...Losing Ehrhoff is just a mistake.

Disintegrate? Did you see them pepper the Canucks tonight? I'm not sure how this game in particular is an indictment of the 'model' when they looked stellar vs a supposed contender.

If you are referring to their current seeding: Don't read too much into a 44 game sample. At this point last year, TOR was only a few games off their current pace... before the wheels fell off.

It's surprising that the DET methodology is being mocked here. A methodology Gillis himself has _explicitly_ expressed that he is trying to emulate. Think about that: You are mocking a model that the team's own GM has advocated. Do you think that Gillis believes that it is solely reliant on a generational talent on D? If so, why do you think he still wishes to adhere to it?

21 years DET has made the playoffs... Following their model. Some teams after a full rebuild... after stripping things down to the struts and building back up again, top out as a playoff bubble team. After two decades+ of picking late, DET is at or better than those examples. How isn't this a positive? I'd really like to know? Please also list teams that have gone full rebuild that have had a similar success rate.

It's not complicated. Over those '21 years', how many other teams have have one of the 3 best defenceman of ALL TIME? Having one of the greatest hockey players ever...is a nice advantage. Call me crazy...but i think that helped Detroit a fair bit.

It's not at all about tonight's specific game regarding the 'Detroit System'. It's the product of a year where they suddenly lose their 'one of the best of all time defenceman' and suddenly...they're a bubble team.

You can blame injuries all you want...but our pathetic Canucks team is a prime counterexample. I mean, just look at the ridiculous scrubs who have been a significant part of our season record. We're not missing a Lidstrom...we're missing like Bieksa.

The point is...with Lidstrom, is Dekeyser in the lineup immediately after signing a deal out of college? Are any of the other youngings featured prominently in the lineup? No.

Detroit this year is showing that they're exactly the same as everyone else. They're hoping their young guys break out and gambling on their ability to produce and hack it at the NHL level...very early and before they're allegedly 'ready'.

As far as i can see...they're doing exactly what every single other sensible NHL franchise is doing...they're relying on their vets and trying to supplement that with fringe FA acquisitions and youngsters stepping up. And like most teams...expecting youngsters to step up as top players, is met with pretty underwhelming results, which lead to serious fringe playoff status.

 

[orcatown]

Outside of few minutes in the third this game was pretty boring affair. Detroit is not a good team and is heading toward Calgary Flames type mediocrity in need of rebuild. Zetterberg, Franzen look done and if Datysuk leaves they have very little. Fact Canucks couldn't play stronger against them is an indication of the poorness of the Canuck play at the moment.

The Good

Schneider - seems to me that Schneider is getting better in the shoot outs. Like some other goalies seems to be really bearing down in this area. Let out a few rebounds tonight but overall was the main reason the team won.

Garrison - liked him again tonight. Not perfect but I thought again the best of the defensemen.

The Bad

Ebbett - was a little better when played at center but disaster in his own end on the wing. I think it should be obvious to all that he can't compete along the boards. There was no way the Canucks were getting out of their zone bring the puck to Ebbett's side. Whatever momentum the team was building up was totally sucked out of the team every time a line, with Ebbett on it, went out.

Raymond - absolutely no zip in his play. Making the wide circles rather than hustling back on defense. Lots of 3 on 2 rushes given up as result. Doing nothing on offense. Don't know if he even got a shot or a chance in this game. Very scary the way he has fallen off.

Ballard - looked like he got benched in the third (maybe hurt). Coverage again confused and running into picks a lot. Lack of movement and mobility is resulting in him getting into scrums and battles around his net all the time. Mostly just batting the puck out of trouble or hoping flip the puck out. Ballard always has trouble when the Canucks end up a spending too much time in their own end. He just just isn't strong or quick enough to get himself some space to make plays. Lack of Tanev, who can get the puck free to Ballard in space, is very much hurting Ballard's game

Other thoughts

Not going to say Alberts was good but he is logging big moments and playing decently. Thought his coverage and work in short handed situations was actually pretty good. I would sat that, at the least , Alberts is meeting any expectations people might have had for him.

Barker wasn't good but he did not make the kind of atrocious, glaring errors he usually makes. Remains extremely passive but at least serviceable on some shifts. However, I see him getting eaten up if the Canucks are forced to use him in the playoffs.

Don't really understand how Ebbett gets more time than LaPierre. La Pierre may not have been playing all that well but he is lot better player than Ebbett. AV was hardly using his 4th line so why not move LaPierre on to the wing with either Kesler or Roy.

Roy showed some good spark and was probably the best of the forwards. However, he got stripped too much and looked to have passed up some good chances to move the puck to people in better positions. Does not seem to have much chemistry with his present wingers and hopefully the return of Higgins can help here.

Liked the way Kassian came back on the back check and the diligent attitude he had towards doing this. Shows that he wants to do the right thing even thought sometimes he doesn't.

You would think there would be more happiness on a night the Canucks once more cemented their position in the playoffs but this game, and other recent games, give you little hope that this is a team geared up for a long run in the playoffs

 

[Vankiller Whale]

Saw this gem on the Wings GDT:

Ballard: "Calm down, bro."

 

[Bleach Clean]

It's not complicated. Over those '21 years', how many other teams have have one of the 3 best defenceman of ALL TIME? Having one of the greatest hockey players ever...is a nice advantage. Call me crazy...but i think that helped Detroit a fair bit.

It did help DET... Did it flip them from contender to bubble team? No. No one player is that good or that vital to a team. Not even a generational talent.

It's not at all about tonight's specific game regarding the 'Detroit System'. It's the product of a year where they suddenly lose their 'one of the best of all time defenceman' and suddenly...they're a bubble team.

What were they when they finished 5th last year? A contender? Do you realize you are talking about a 3-4 spot difference between rendering an entire model obsolete?

Oh, and I must have read too much into "before our very eyes". Thought you were referencing what you were seeing in this game.

You can blame injuries all you want...but our pathetic Canucks team is a prime counterexample. I mean, just look at the ridiculous scrubs who have been a significant part of our season record. We're not missing a Lidstrom...we're missing like Bieksa.

The point is...with Lidstrom, is Dekeyser in the lineup immediately after signing a deal out of college? Are any of the other youngings featured prominently in the lineup? No.

I'm not sure that seeing Dekeyser in the lineup signifies the death of an entire model here. Nor does seeing Nyquist play. Both played pretty well.

The model goes beyond acquiring or developing high end talent. Having that talent blossom in house is great, when it happens. But it's not a requirement to be continually successful. I think that's what the model actually is. The resulting quality teams are a byproduct of that methodology. In other words, they are working on the next wave while the current wave is still making the team competitive. That's why you see development time being put into Dekeyser, Nyquist, Andersson, Kindl etc... It's to prepare for the eventual cycle while not sacrificing the present.

Detroit this year is showing that they're exactly the same as everyone else. They're hoping their young guys break out and gambling on their ability to produce and hack it at the NHL level...very early and before they're allegedly 'ready'.

As far as i can see...they're doing exactly what every single other sensible NHL franchise is doing...they're relying on their vets and trying to supplement that with fringe FA acquisitions and youngsters stepping up. And like most teams...expecting youngsters to step up as top players, is met with pretty underwhelming results, which lead to serious fringe playoff status.

DET showed last year that they were a mid-pack playoff team even with Lidstrom. Having that generational talent back there didn't mean much. They weren't contenders.

They are doing what other teams are trying to do. Or rather, other teams have adopted the techniques DET has employed for over 21 years, to get better... Skilled depth has been a hallmark of the wings. Other teams don't value the same type of depth, nor do they draft in the way that DET does. It's really a top down approach to targeting the right players no matter where they come from.

 

[JuniorNelson]

I did not expect a giant war with Detroit when the Black Hawks game is Monday. Vig can get a real read on things after that game.

Of course the injuries will accumulate. It's that time of year. Corrado! LOL!

 

[RoyalRed]

Outside of few minutes in the third this game was pretty boring affair. Detroit is not a good team and is heading toward Calgary Flames type mediocrity in need of rebuild. Zetterberg, Franzen look done and if Datysuk leaves they have very little. Fact Canucks couldn't play stronger against them is an indication of the poorness of the Canuck play at the moment.

The Good

Schneider - seems to me that Schneider is getting better in the shoot outs. Like some other goalies seems to be really bearing down in this area. Let out a few rebounds tonight but overall was the main reason the team won.

Garrison - liked him again tonight. Not perfect but I thought again the best of the defensemen.

The Bad

Ebbett - was a little better when played at center but disaster in his own end on the wing. I think it should be obvious to all that he can't compete along the boards. There was no way the Canucks were getting out of their zone bring the puck to Ebbett's side. Whatever momentum the team was building up was totally sucked out of the team every time a line, with Ebbett on it, went out.

Raymond - absolutely no zip in his play. Making the wide circles rather than hustling back on defense. Lots of 3 on 2 rushes given up as result. Doing nothing on offense. Don't know if he even got a shot or a chance in this game. Very scary the way he has fallen off.

Ballard - looked like he got benched in the third (maybe hurt). Coverage again confused and running into picks a lot. Lack of movement and mobility is resulting in him getting into scrums and battles around his net all the time. Mostly just batting the puck out of trouble or hoping flip the puck out. Ballard always has trouble when the Canucks end up a spending too much time in their own end. He just just isn't strong or quick enough to get himself some space to make plays. Lack of Tanev, who can get the puck free to Ballard in space, is very much hurting Ballard's game

Other thoughts

Not going to say Alberts was good but he is logging big moments and playing decently. Thought his coverage and work in short handed situations was actually pretty good. I would sat that, at the least , Alberts is meeting any expectations people might have had for him.

Barker wasn't good but he did not make the kind of atrocious, glaring errors he usually makes. Remains extremely passive but at least serviceable on some shifts. However, I see him getting eaten up if the Canucks are forced to use him in the playoffs.

Don't really understand how Ebbett gets more time than LaPierre. La Pierre may not have been playing all that well but he is lot better player than Ebbett. AV was hardly using his 4th line so why not move LaPierre on to the wing with either Kesler or Roy.

Roy showed some good spark and was probably the best of the forwards. However, he got stripped too much and looked to have passed up some good chances to move the puck to people in better positions. Does not seem to have much chemistry with his present wingers and hopefully the return of Higgins can help here.

Liked the way Kassian came back on the back check and the diligent attitude he had towards doing this. Shows that he wants to do the right thing even thought sometimes he doesn't.

You would think there would be more happiness on a night the Canucks once more cemented their position in the playoffs but this game, and other recent games, give you little hope that this is a team geared up for a long run in the playoffs

This is pretty much how I feel. I'm glad the Canucks won and glad they clinched a spot in the playoffs but I have ZERO expectations for them in the playoffs. They are just not built to win (Danny boy hugging Franzen's knee , cannot score more than 1 goal ).

 

[BoHorvatFan]

This is pretty much how I feel. I'm glad the Canucks won and glad they clinched a spot in the playoffs but I have ZERO expectations for them in the playoffs. They are just not built to win (Danny boy hugging Franzen's knee , cannot score more than 1 goal ).

This is the problem, we win our terrible division again and have a great seed and we all know this team will roll over to the first really good team they play. Wasting a year of this cores window with such awful depth and a terribly built defence is unacceptable.

 

[Fat Tony]

It did help DET... Did it flip them from contender to bubble team? No. No one player is that good or that vital to a team. Not even a generational talent.

What were they when they finished 5th last year? A contender?

Last year, they were a team anchored by a 41-year old defenseman. Even generational talents age.

Do you realize you are talking about a 3-4 spot difference between rendering an entire model obsolete?

I believe the entire model was a mirage. I think we'll see a further drop in the standings next year.

 

[Bleach Clean]

Last year, they were a team anchored by a 41-year old defenseman. Even generational talents age.

Yet, Holland was very willing to re-sign that aging talent for good money?

So is the model Lidstrom dependent or not?

I believe the entire model was a mirage. I think we'll see a further drop in the standings next year.

A 21 year mirage... And so when Gillis is describing the model he chooses to follow, he's describing a mirage?

If they don't drop off from being a bubble team, does that mean the model is sound? Current success is only part of what makes their process what it is. But even being a bubble team now, after being in the mix for so long, is still impressive. Not many teams can do even this. Not many rebuilding teams can do even this.

 

[Fat Tony]

Yet, Holland was very willing to re-sign that aging talent for good money?

So is the model Lidstrom dependent or not?

Yes, it is. It declined as he eventually declined. A 41-year old Lidstrom is still a very good player but he couldn't prop up the team like he used to.

A 21 year mirage... And so when Gillis is describing the model he chooses to follow, he's describing a mirage?

Yes, he is.

If they don't drop off from being a bubble team, does that mean the model is sound? Current success is only part of what makes their process what it is. But even being a bubble team now, after being in the mix for so long, is still impressive. Not many teams can do even this. Not many rebuilding teams can do even this.

St. Louis did it. No one is advocating that model, which was essentially the Detroit model without Lidstrom.

 

[Seatoo]

I think you're in the minority in thinking Ferraro is a tool. Even in Trail.

Who do you think is a better color guy ?

Argh I hate google chrome for the iPhone...I had a nice long post detailing what an ******* Ray is and it randomly refreshed on me...


Anyways Ray is the typical ****** jock who will go up to women and say "You know who I am right? don't you know who I am?" Ala E. Kane. Or he thinks that fans do not have a right to boo a sports team they pay money to see play.

Now Ray isn't a bad color guy but everything I know about him on a personal level ruins his broadcasts for me. Also Cammie truly is a better hockey player than him and not just because she got into the HHOF and he didn't

 

[Canucker]

Argh I hate google chrome for the iPhone...I had a nice long post detailing what an ******* Ray is and it randomly refreshed on me...


Anyways Ray is the typical ****** jock who will go up to women and say "You know who I am right? don't you know who I am?" Ala E. Kane. Or he thinks that fans do not have a right to boo a sports team they pay money to see play.

Now Ray isn't a bad color guy but everything I know about him on a personal level ruins his broadcasts for me. Also Cammie truly is a better hockey player than him and not just because she got into the HHOF and he didn't

Agree with you...Ferraro is a complete ****** nozzle.

 

[Bleach Clean]

Yes, it is. It declined as he eventually declined. A 41-year old Lidstrom is still a very good player but he couldn't prop up the team like he used to.


Yes, he is.

St. Louis did it. No one is advocating that model, which was essentially the Detroit model without Lidstrom.

First point - So 1 player props up DET from contender status to a team in danger of missing the playoffs? I guess Zetterberg and Datsyuk et. al. are just window dressing?

Second point - Lol. Paid GM (that has garnered a GM of the year award + most wins over a 4 season span) vs. your opinion on this... tough call. But more to the point, if there is no model, then what you are saying is that any team is a Lidstrom away from 21 years of high calibre play, and that just seems illogical from even a base analysis. It's oversimplified and it does not account for the other great contributors on that roster. In their last cup year, Franzen was scoring at a phenomenal rate. How do you quantify that? A complete byproduct of Lidstrom? Nope.

Third point - Remind me again, when did STL start building the team you see now?

 

[arsmaster*]

Bleach you're overrating Detroits model.

Look at the players they had at the beginning. At one point in the late 90's they had 3 400+ goal scorers on their 4th line.

They bought they're 90's cups.

Also bought Hossa and Rafalski to name two after the 1st lockout.

The guys They found in the draft (Datayuk and Zetterberg) don't come around every few years.

The system is flawed when its dependent on Fedorov, lidstrom, yzerman, Shanahan, Konstantinov, larionov, hull, chelios, etc etc

 

[Fat Tony]

First point - So 1 player props up DET from contender status to a team in danger of missing the playoffs? I guess Zetterberg and Datsyuk et. al. are just window dressing?

No, one really good player can make the a mediocre team a contender. Detroit is a mediocre team.

First point - So 1 player props up DET from contender status to a team in danger of missing the playoffs? I guess Zetterberg and Datsyuk et. al. are just window dressing?

Second point - Lol. Paid GM (that has garnered a GM of the year award + most wins over a 4 season span) vs. your opinion on this... tough call.

Cool.

But more to the point, if there is no model, then what you are saying is that any team is a Lidstrom away from 21 years of high calibre play, and that just seems illogical from even a base analysis. It's oversimplified and it does not account for the other great contributors on that roster. In their last cup year, Franzen was scoring at a phenomenal rate. How do you quantify that? A complete byproduct of Lidstrom? Nope.

Not complete. Detroit would have been a mediocre team that I don't think would likely have reached a Finals without Lidstrom.

Third point - Remind me again, when did STL start building the team you see now?

1980-2004.

 

[King of the ES*]

Not worried about Playoffs, 2 key players missing Bieksa and Tanev.

Not sure how you can say that with a straight face. Bieksa & Tanev are not difference-makers.

By "not worried", then, what are you saying? That the switch will be flipped and this team will turn into a powerhouse?

 

[King of the ES*]

I like what Elliote said, by grinding out so many games this year, that could be very helpful come playoff time. Just trying to be somewhat optimistic.

"Grinding out" is not descriptive of what happened last night. Canucks were lifeless and were Schneider not again spectacular they would've lost by a 2 or 3 goal margin, fairly easily.

 

[King of the ES*]

"patience is needed when dealing with 21 and 22 year olds"

- Ken Holland.


I just thought I would throw that in for all the Kassian haters.

Some 21/21 year-olds, yes. That patience wasn't needed for Cody Hodgson, who was already contributing heavily.

If Kassian needs more growing up, send him to Chicago. He's not adding any value to the Canucks, anyway.

 

[m9]

Some 21/21 year-olds, yes. That patience wasn't needed for Cody Hodgson, who was already contributing heavily.

If Kassian needs more growing up, send him to Chicago. He's not adding any value to the Canucks, anyway.

This whole 'send him down' thing continues to be the most clueless response ever. He doesn't have to be Hodgson to play on the Canucks, he just has to be one of the Canucks top 12 forwards. You're saying guys like Ebbett and Pinnizotto are better players than him?

 

[Canucker]

Not sure how you can say that with a straight face. Bieksa & Tanev are not difference-makers.

By "not worried", then, what are you saying? That the switch will be flipped and this team will turn into a powerhouse?

Our record without Bieksa in the lineup is pretty sad. He may be a loose cannon defensively but the team plays better when he's in the lineup.

And we were missing 3 significant pieces, not 2, if you include Higgins.

 

[King of the ES*]

This whole 'send him down' thing continues to be the most clueless response ever. He doesn't have to be Hodgson to play on the Canucks, he just has to be one of the Canucks top 12 forwards. You're saying guys like Ebbett and Pinnizotto are better players than him?

Ebbett plays a position of need, and at least Pinizzotto hits, which Kassian does not.

 

[Drop the Sopel]

A 21 year mirage... And so when Gillis is describing the model he chooses to follow, he's describing a mirage?

Gillis no longer believes in the Detroit model. Detroit's model is skill, smarts and quick puck movement over all else and Gillis' objective is to add as much size as possible, at the expense of skill and smarts.

Gillis stopped believing in Holland's model 2 years ago.

 

[The Big Foot]

I understand people being skeptical that the team is not going anywhere in the playoffs, but people seriously sound whiny and out of touch around here. For all the bellyaching about a lack of scoring punch, somehow the Canucks have scored more than any other team in the NW (while missing Kesler and Booth for most of the year). Not to mention 2 of the top 5 D have been out for the stretch run and they are managing to stay ahead of the Wild for the division lead.
As fans we should be more pleased with the fact that this is clearly one of the top teams in the West. People are spoiled..and I guess there are people here who have never been a fan of a truly bad team like the late 90s Nucks, or any Canucks team pre-Bure/Linden/McLean.
Detroit is playing for its life right now and they couldn't put away a team featuring Cam Barker, Alberts and Ballard playing significant minutes.

 

[Drop the Sopel]

Ebbett plays a position of need, and at least Pinizzotto hits, which Kassian does not.

How can anyone that watches this team think Kassian does not hit? The kid is 3rd on the team in hits...