Post-Game Talk: GM 36 | Flames def. Canucks | 3-1 (Boeser) | Onto 2025.

B-rock

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Jun 29, 2003
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Juulsen falling asleep on the blueline to allow the breakway, then overcommiting to Soucy's side and basically just getting in Soucy's way which made it difficult for him to clear the puck as well. Juulsen should be somewhere in the red circle defending the crease but instead he ends up in his opposite corner staring at an empty net tap in.
Juulsen losing his head and jumping over to Soucy's side of the crease to chase the puck, leaving his side of the crease wide open, while Soucy very much had his side of the net covered, was the most egregious for me. For me it exemplifies Juulsen's issues, running around like a chicken with its head cut off after he allowed the breakaway, instead of keeping a cool head, regrouping, and holding his position after Lank made the save.

I definitely think its the defence that's causing breakdowns in the Dzone and that doesn't have the skill to get the puck up ice to the forwards, or to create offence in the Ozone. But I do think there's something to Tocchets system as well, where they can struggle to create much offence, even when healthy, as we saw in the back half of last year, and where they are routinely outshot even when losing, where score effects indicate they should be outshooting when behind to get back in the game.
 

Johnny Canucker

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Jan 4, 2009
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Everything went right last year and we won 1 round in the playoffs. This year that luck is gone and this is what we are. We had 1 (relatively) good year in the last decade. Allvin and Rutherford get way too much praise. They have been average. Wait till 2 years from now where we are stuck with anchor contracts in JTM9 who hasn’t scored a goal in 10 games and EP40 who’s a baby headcase without Quinn Hughes. Signing QH43 to a 6 year deal instead of an 8 year deal should be fireable.

MoneyPuck has us at 47% chance to make the playoffs. Spending to the cap and missing the playoffs should have GM/ President / coach all canned.


People talking about “contender” when we can’t even make the playoffs is laughable.
 

ohnoeszz

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May 5, 2010
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Because I am very sick and very bored here are some breakdowns from this game:

Here's a situation that we see often from limited D-men that struggle with processing the play quickly and/or can't skate that well. The guy on his right is taken out of the play, Juulsen peeks over to his left to see that the trailer is being covered by a back-checker. In this case he has the green light to step up and close the space on Zary who has just picked up the puck pretty much at the blueline. But instead, Juulsen backs off and gives Zary a clean look from almost the faceoff dot.

View attachment 954373

Here is an example of the defensive switches / rotations issues I've been talking about. This one's a bit awkward as Debrusk was covering for Miller at center because Debrusk was the first back-checker. Debrusk at this point is in no man's land, and needs to close the gap on the point.

View attachment 954374

Miller then inexplicably points to Debrusk to tell him to go across the zone to cover the other point, but then also doesn't close out on Coronato. Instead he backs off in an attempt to block the shot and Debrusk is still in no man's land covering nobody. Coronato rings it off the crossbar with a clean shot from the high slot.

Juulsen falling asleep on the blueline to allow the breakway, then overcommiting to Soucy's side and basically just getting in Soucy's way which made it difficult for him to clear the puck as well. Juulsen should be somewhere in the red circle defending the crease but instead he ends up in his opposite corner staring at an empty net tap in.

View attachment 954375

Here's another example of a D-man not being able to process the play. Desharnais sees that Blueger has what would usually be his guy in the corner, he sees Brannstrom has his guy in the opposite corner, and the wingers are in position covering their point man. That means there's one guy left, and with all 4 corners covered that typically means the 5th guy is in the middle. But he's too uncomfortable leaving his post beside the net, and it leads to a clean shot dead in the slot.

View attachment 954378

On the very same rebound Desharnais has a decent amount of time and space to make a play with the puck but he bobbles it and has to look down at it to settle it, and then just rifles it high off the glass and out. This shift was a prime example of how not having enough legit NHL D-men cripples the team. Just way too often the reads are wrong defensively and the ability to transition cleanly is nonexistent.

View attachment 954379

And here's the play that leads to the game-winner. Joshua should easily be able to recognize that both his linemates are already fore-checking, so it's his responsibility to the first forward back. Instead he just stands there, doesn't intercept the pass or "chip a body" and the Flames have a clear 3-on-2. It's also fair to say that both Garland and Suter were half-assing this fore-check and Suter probably should have backed off instead of attempting to pressure up ice.

View attachment 954381

This.

It's hard to draw many other conclusions beyond our D being overmatched at the NHL level.

It's a roster issue that's come home to roost with Hughes and Hronek out.
 

Johnny Canucker

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Jan 4, 2009
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We have most 5 of the last 6. We are the talk of every media outlet with 2 baby players feuding. Chances of making playoffs are 47%. Cap crunched. Mid to shit prospects. Haven’t won anything ever. Depressing.
 

VanJack

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Jul 11, 2014
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My fear is not whether the Canucks squeeze into the playoffs, or miss altogether.

It's the risk that they might do something really dumb at the TDL. This team isn't really going anywhere, no matter who they add.

And as Burkie used to say the two most dangerous times of the year for any GM, are the TDL in early March and the July 1 UFA season.
 

PuckMunchkin

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From the game thread....

If you think the bulk of injuries are simply the result of playing a lot I don't know what to tell you. Him playing a minute or so less a game on average isn't some huge significant thing. That is what is being talked about because he's going to play well over 20 minutes a night no matter what. An average of 25 vs 23 minutes over a set of games isn't some sort of tipping point for injury. Again what makes Hughes so unusual that he should be given less minutes compared to:

Werenski, Sergachev, Makar, Heiskanen, and Faber who play more than Hughes (25:08 average...an average that has been steady the entire year)
or
Jones, Josi, Seider, Sanheim, Parayko and Andersson who all play over 24:30 a night.

25 minutes a night on average is what #1 D-men in the world play (there are 20D over 24 minutes a game, 35 over 23 minutes). Some games it will be less and some it will be more.

I have never seen NHL numbers but the NBA released a study last year showing that load management had no bearing on injury rate.



Injuries happen and typically it's from routine things that can happen at any time.
Injuries happen far more when tired.
 

mriswith

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Oct 12, 2011
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Everything went right last year and we won 1 round in the playoffs.
We went into the playoffs missing Demko and with EP in a mega slump. Hughes apparently wasn't 100% either to start, reminiscent of Hedman playing through the regular season injured to win regular season awards the year they got swept by CBJ.

The bottom six, namely Garland's line, carried the team for the second half the year. We had to play two series with Sievelovs who can't handle a backup nhl job this year and is barely keeping above .900 in the AHL. We adjusted our entire playstyle around sheltering him, and he still ended up with a save % in the .800s.

That's not everything going right at all.

Everything went right for the first 3 months of the season but not after that. We had more bad than good luck going into the playoffs.
 

CanucksSayEh

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Apr 6, 2012
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Garland has played well this year, and im a fan, but his ceiling (lol cuz hes a short king) is showing here.

Give him all the minutes you want, PP1 time, top line mates, he's still gonna max out at like 55 to MAYBE 60 points.

With his motor, he always looks to be playing well, but a lot of the time isn't getting much of anything done. He can't really get out into a grade A scoring position, and even if he does, his shots a total muffin.
 
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larueskee

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Mar 15, 2017
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It is the cap that and the contract extensions that put this team where it is at the moment. A extra million a season for Petey, Hughes, Hornek and you think you can go cheap on replacements for Cole or Z. The studs got paid but now we find out the studs aren't studs without decent support. Its a league wide thing, hope the studs enjoy the money. They sure won't be enjoying much winning.
 

ChuckNorris4Cup

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May 31, 2018
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From the game thread....

If you think the bulk of injuries are simply the result of playing a lot I don't know what to tell you. Him playing a minute or so less a game on average isn't some huge significant thing. That is what is being talked about because he's going to play well over 20 minutes a night no matter what. An average of 25 vs 23 minutes over a set of games isn't some sort of tipping point for injury. Again what makes Hughes so unusual that he should be given less minutes compared to:

Werenski, Sergachev, Makar, Heiskanen, and Faber who play more than Hughes (25:08 average...an average that has been steady the entire year)
or
Jones, Josi, Seider, Sanheim, Parayko and Andersson who all play over 24:30 a night.

25 minutes a night on average is what #1 D-men in the world play (there are 20D over 24 minutes a game, 35 over 23 minutes). Some games it will be less and some it will be more.

I have never seen NHL numbers but the NBA released a study last year showing that load management had no bearing on injury rate.



Injuries happen and typically it's from routine things that can happen at any time.
I never said the bulk of injuries not sure where you're getting that from, but pretending or acting like injuries can't happen due to being fatigue is not accurate at all. No different then driving a car and accidents happen at a much higher rate from being fatigue.

The argument back then was regarding adding more top 4 depth to the defense in the off season and preventing a guy a like Hughes playing more minutes to cover the mess of the D which you defended that it wasn’t a problem having Hughes playing more minutes. Those guys you mention how much bigger than Hughes are they? Are they the same size as Hughes to be taking hits all the time.

Not sure why comparing NBA to NHL has any merit, do NBA players need to keep their head up from being drilled? Do NBA players have to keep an eye over their shoulder from being hit from behind or at the boards? Comparing a non contact sport to a contact sport doesn't help your argument here.
 

tantalum

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I never said the bulk of injuries not sure where you're getting that from, but pretending or acting like injuries can't happen due to being fatigue is not accurate at all. No different then driving a car and accidents happen at a much higher rate from being fatigue.

The argument back then was regarding adding more top 4 depth to the defense in the off season and preventing a guy a like Hughes playing more minutes to cover the mess of the D which you defended that it wasn’t a problem having Hughes playing more minutes. Those guys you mention how much bigger than Hughes are they? Are they the same size as Hughes to be taking hits all the time.

Not sure why comparing NBA to NHL has any merit, do NBA players need to keep their head up from being drilled? Do NBA players have to keep an eye over their shoulder from being hit from behind or at the boards? Comparing a non contact sport to a contact sport doesn't help your argument here.
So the only point you have is Hughes is smaller. Just ignore that EVERY team plays their best players A LOT. For some reason the reigning best D-man in the world is the exception and shouldn’t be played as every other player of his quality.

That’s your argument in a nut shell. And quite frankly that is absolutely ridiculous. To think Hughes isn’t going to average 25 minutes a night is straight up delusional. It really is. If not 25 minutes how much? Again what 22 or 23? A whole shift or two a night difference? Is his injury one that occurred at the end of the game when tired? Usually not the case just by straight odds.

I’m not comparing contact vs non contact sport I was taking a study from a sport with elite athletes and that in that sport load management does nothing in terms of injury. Basketball also has different injury concerns than in hockey but injuries be injuries.
 

ChuckNorris4Cup

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So the only point you have is Hughes is smaller. Just ignore that EVERY team plays their best players A LOT. For some reason the reigning best D-man in the world is the exception and shouldn’t be played as every other player of his quality.

That’s your argument in a nut shell. And quite frankly that is absolutely ridiculous. To think Hughes isn’t going to average 25 minutes a night is straight up delusional. It really is. If not 25 minutes how much? Again what 22 or 23? A whole shift or two a night difference? Is his injury one that occurred at the end of the game when tired? Usually not the case just by straight odds.

I’m not comparing contact vs non contact sport I was taking a study from a sport with elite athletes and that in that sport load management does nothing in terms of injury. Basketball also has different injury concerns than in hockey but injuries be injuries.
You wanted to bring up those players not me, I just asked you a question, why so defensive? Maybe Canucks should just play Demko 70+ games a year, because your NBA sports guru shows fatigue isn't a factor for injuries.

What's ridiculous is you thinking Canucks didn't need more top 4 D in the off-season for more depth, and prefer playing Hughes 27+mins a game, because in your eyes other teams do it so it shouldn't be a problem.
 

tantalum

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You wanted to bring up those players not me, I just asked you a question, why so defensive? Maybe Canucks should just play Demko 70+ games a year, because your NBA sports guru shows fatigue isn't a factor for injuries.

What's ridiculous is you thinking Canucks didn't need more top 4 D in the off-season for more depth, and prefer playing Hughes 27+mins a game, because in your eyes other teams do it so it shouldn't be a problem.
25 minutes a game is what he has averaged…same as last season. Not 27. 27 he would be first in the league but he’s not.

The onus isn’t on me to prove anything here. He’s the current Norris win era as the best D-man in the league. It’s logical that he is near the top of the league in average ice. It’s that simple. We also aren’t talking goaltenders here but go ahead and move those goalposts all you like…I’m done arguing about this. Top players play top minutes it’s that simple.

He isnt really like other top defenders the past 30 years is he?
No he’s not. He’s one of the best to ever play the game at this stage in comparative careers. So he is going to be playing a lot of minutes like every other player of his ilk.
 

ChuckNorris4Cup

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25 minutes a game is what he has averaged…same as last season. Not 27. 27 he would be first in the league but he’s not.

The onus isn’t on me to prove anything here. He’s the current Norris win era as the best D-man in the league. It’s logical that he is near the top of the league in average ice. It’s that simple. We also aren’t talking goaltenders here but go ahead and move those goalposts all you like…I’m done arguing about this. Top players play top minutes it’s that simple.
Yeah he has been playing over 27 mins a night since Hronek got injured because they don't have enough top 4 D. Hronek got injured on Nov 27th. Hughes has played 3 games out of 14 under 25 mins since Hronek got injured, so yeah Hughes is playing over 25 mins more closer to 27+ a night, do you even watch the games?

Screenshot_20250103_172239_theScore~2.jpg
 

PuckMunchkin

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25 minutes a game is what he has averaged…same as last season. Not 27. 27 he would be first in the league but he’s not.

The onus isn’t on me to prove anything here. He’s the current Norris win era as the best D-man in the league. It’s logical that he is near the top of the league in average ice. It’s that simple. We also aren’t talking goaltenders here but go ahead and move those goalposts all you like…I’m done arguing about this. Top players play top minutes it’s that simple.


No he’s not. He’s one of the best to ever play the game at this stage in comparative careers. So he is going to be playing a lot of minutes like every other player of his ilk.
Agree to disagree.
 

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