Give Markov credit!

[Ezpz]

No, not at all.

Yes and by a fair margin.

 

[Et le But]

Yes and by a fair margin.

This really isn't true. Taking less risks (and therefore causing less turnovers) is not the same as outplaying.

That being said, Markov has become underrated somehow. You still see people calling him a PP specialist and claiming we need to trade him before the season is over. Markov is the 2nd best defender on this team and despite his lack of speed, if anything is playing one of the most well rounded games of his career. Like Saku, a lot of people won't appreciate what we have until he's gone.

 

[Jigger77]

He's been the stabilizing factor for that D and this team for years now. Looks like he's got a bit of jump in his step back too lately.

 

[MonkeyBusiness]

He looks faster this year, he has been very good at both ends of the ice. Hope his strong play continues, I also hope he stays a Hab!

 

[Talks to Goalposts]

Maybe we can ask one of the stat wizards on that one. Unfortunately I can't help you. I do remember somebody digging up Markov's advanced stats from last season though and every blueliner he was paired with took a hit on the defensive side of the ledger.

I don't have those stats for you though sorry.

Any stat heads want to give us some info here?

Markov's 2013 season was a bit strange in that he had about 20+ games playing at a number one defenseman level by the numbers (not a Subban level number one, but a top 20-25 type) at even strength.

He cratered in the back half of the season, which a lot of people noticed. Losing Emelin obviously didn't help. Markov's minuses for the year was due to his time with Boullion/Drewiskie rather than Emelin (ended up even despite tailling off even before losing him) and big pluses with Subban.

Markov-Diaz this year has pretty good puck control metrics and zero 5v5 goals against, despite some very ugly d-zone work. That quick transition work is worth something.

Markov-Subban has been terrific, the obvious drivers of results for the team, by any measure its night and day between when the Habs have them on the ice compared to not. Team treads water by playing about even without them, dominants with them on the ice 5v5. Its between them and Chara-Boychuck for the best pairing in the East this year.


You can also look at Chris Boucher's numbers and see that Markov is playing possession events far better than he was last season.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Yes and by a fair margin.

He had horrific turnovers with Diaz. You don't know what you're talking about here. This isn't debatable.

Markov has been very good since being paired with Subban. That's where he should be. Great offensive instincts and Subban can make up for his deficiencies. But it's Subban carrying the defensive load here not the other way around. Markov can't win individual battles in the corner, is slow and coughs up the puck a fair bit. Subban wins battles in the corners, hits (something Markov has never done) and is a lot better with the puck (even if he doesn't play the simple game that Markov does.) He's better in every way except maybe the crazy lead passes that Markov brings.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Markov's 2013 season was a bit strange in that he had about 20+ games playing at a number one defenseman level by the numbers (not a Subban level number one, but a top 20-25 type) at even strength.

He cratered in the back half of the season, which a lot of people noticed. Losing Emelin obviously didn't help. Markov's minuses for the year was due to his time with Boullion/Drewiskie rather than Emelin (ended up even despite tailling off even before losing him) and big pluses with Subban.

Markov-Diaz this year has pretty good puck control metrics and zero 5v5 goals against, despite some very ugly d-zone work. That quick transition work is worth something.

Markov-Subban has been terrific, the obvious drivers of results for the team, by any measure its night and day between when the Habs have them on the ice compared to not. Team treads water by playing about even without them, dominants with them on the ice 5v5. Its between them and Chara-Boychuck for the best pairing in the East this year.


You can also look at Chris Boucher's numbers and see that Markov is playing possession events far better than he was last season.

Was it you who posted those numbers? I remember somebody showed his D partners and noted that a drop in defensive play each time they were with him. It showed pretty conclusively (at least from a statistical standpoint) that this guy is a liability in his own end.

 

[Znthnk]

I've been digging Markov's play recently, just concerned if it can take the wear of a long season.

 

[Talks to Goalposts]

Was it you who posted those numbers? I remember somebody showed his D partners and noted that a drop in defensive play each time they were with him. It showed pretty conclusively (at least from a statistical standpoint) that this guy is a liability in his own end.

I don't think so, although I did study the matter. Its a complicated matter because

a) Therrien loves to ride Markov as his shutdown guy for some strange reason which skews the results somewhat. That's most relevant for Emelin and the depth guys that moved up to play with him.

b) Markov has not played at a consistant level since his return, first half of 2013, second half of 2013 and 2013-14 are 3 distinct stretches that bear little resemblance to each other in terms of 5 on 5 play.

c) the nexus of Carey Price's late season implosion as well as the collapse of the Habs' 2nd and 3rd pairngs late in 2013 effected Markov most notably at all.

d) Subban is one of the best goal prevention defenders in the league and is on Markov's team, so everyone's WOWY on defense is going to look worse because of it. Drewiskie and Boullion are going to be worse with Markov because they moved up to real responsibilites with Markov rather than 3rd pairing where they belong. Markov was playing big minutes with anchors while Price was playing poorly (while 1st pairing of Gorges-Subban were so dominant that Price's struggles didn't really touch them).

Also it wasn't everyone that got worse, Subban played his best minutes with Markov last season over Gorges or Boullion.

I've seen pretty good data to show that Markov was horrid in his own zone in late 2013 and does not belong on the PK at all. He does seem to be somewhat better this year though and it will be curious to see which is more reflective of Markov going forward. I'd be concerned about keeping his minutes relatively managed because there is after all a lot of miles on that body.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

I don't think so, although I did study the matter. Its a complicated matter because

a) Therrien loves to ride Markov as his shutdown guy for some strange reason which skews the results somewhat. That's most relevant for Emelin and the depth guys that moved up to play with him.

b) Markov has not played at a consistant level since his return, first half of 2013, second half of 2013 and 2013-14 are 3 distinct stretches that bear little resemblance to each other in terms of 5 on 5 play.

c) the nexus of Carey Price's late season implosion as well as the collapse of the Habs' 2nd and 3rd pairngs late in 2013 effected Markov most notably at all.

d) Subban is one of the best goal prevention defenders in the league and is on Markov's team, so everyone's WOWY on defense is going to look worse because of it. Drewiskie and Boullion are going to be worse with Markov because they moved up to real responsibilites with Markov rather than 3rd pairing where they belong. Markov was playing big minutes with anchors while Price was playing poorly (while 1st pairing of Gorges-Subban were so dominant that Price's struggles didn't really touch them).

Also it wasn't everyone that got worse, Subban played his best minutes with Markov last season over Gorges or Boullion.

I've seen pretty good data to show that Markov was horrid in his own zone in late 2013 and does not belong on the PK at all. He does seem to be somewhat better this year though and it will be curious to see which is more reflective of Markov going forward. I'd be concerned about keeping his minutes relatively managed because there is after all a lot of miles on that body.

He was pretty horrid in his own zone before being paired with Subban too. I'm not quoting numbers here, just what I saw. The Toronto game in particular was just an embarrassment for those two.

Just out of curiousity, where does Subban rank in the league in terms of goal prevention? I'm guessing all the data would have to be five on five because MT (for whatever reason) doesn't want him on th PK. And how much influence does the goalie have on this?

 

[Pricef*]

He's currently 3rd overall in the league for +/- at +9

 

[Burke the Legend]

Markov-Subban works well

but

The big issue is the weakness of 2nd pairing, and I don't think moving Markov will solve it, he can't carry someone by himself anymore. Gorges-Diaz another weak night. I don't think either player is as bad as they looked recently, but they aren't complementing each other well.

I am not going to pretend Emelin is a superstar, cuz he really hasn't shown that yet, but hopefully when he gets back he can at least get some chemistry with Diaz or Gorges to make that 2nd pairing respectable, and not a gong-show.

If that fails, but the Habs are still in good position, I would be for going on and going shopping for a decent #3 dman. There are some decent potential rentals out there such as MacDonald, Gilbert, TImonen, Gilroy, Girardi. This is the biggest hole out there in the Habs line up right now and could be a huge missing piece.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Markov-Subban works well

but

The big issue is the weakness of 2nd pairing, and I don't think moving Markov will solve it, he can't carry someone by himself anymore. Gorges-Diaz another weak night. I don't think either player is as bad as they looked recently, but they aren't complementing each other well.

I am not going to pretend Emelin is a superstar, cuz he really hasn't shown that yet, but hopefully when he gets back he can at least get some chemistry with Diaz or Gorges to make that 2nd pairing respectable, and not a gong-show.

If that fails, but the Habs are still in good position, I would be for going on and going shopping for a decent #3 dman. There are some decent potential rentals out there such as MacDonald, Gilbert, TImonen, Gilroy, Girardi. This is the biggest hole out there in the Habs line up right now and could be a huge missing piece.

We really needed to get a solid 2nd pairing blueliner in the offseason. It's going to be much harder to do now because we screwed ourselves out of 4 million in cap space with Briere.

Some folks said that Briere was a "low risk" investment... well, right there you can see why it wasn't. Opportunity Cost - that's what makes the Briere signing so damaging to us.

 

[Talks to Goalposts]

He was pretty horrid in his own zone before being paired with Subban too. I'm not quoting numbers here, just what I saw. The Toronto game in particular was just an embarrassment for those two.

Just out of curiousity, where does Subban rank in the league in terms of goal prevention? I'm guessing all the data would have to be five on five because MT (for whatever reason) doesn't want him on th PK. And how much influence does the goalie have on this?

Goal prevention is a somewhat subjective thing to look at because there are obviously huge enviromental factors for a player and defense itself is really the absence of the other team's offense, and defining the degrees of absence of something is something that is by its very nature difficult to pin down.

But in my subjective opinion, given these facts: shots and goals (about half a goal per hour less, which is massive) against plummet relative to his team when Subban is on the ice, that he is top 20 in the league amoung regular minute defensemen goals and shots against per minute over the previous 3 seasons and that he's been the best player on his pairing the whole way through and his partners get way worse without him, and that he generally plays fairly tough assignments (to the degree that even matters, the spread in minute difficult for top 4 guys isn't that large). I'd have to put him in the top 10 in the league in 5v5 defense. He's death to the oppositions shot on goal rate and doesn't show any signs of hurting save percentage either (Price has put up much better numbers behind Subban than Subban's teammates). The only guy that is obviously better by the numbers I'd have any faith in than him is Chara.


Markov on the other hand, has never been all that successful at 5v5 defense if he wasn't getting strong goaltending behind him. That he plays with scrubs generally has to be a factor, but I'd have a hard time saying he was any better than Hamrlik there and I'd say that he was worse.


I'd definitely agree there were points where Markov-Diaz was terrible in their own zone. The issue I'd have is considering that the entire sum of defense. Because there's a lot that goes into preventing goals that has to do with having the puck when the other team doesn't. Also, you might not be making distinctions in your memory between 5v5 and PP situations, which are completely different situations.

Checking back, I can find that Markov-Diaz had a pretty crummy game in Toronto at preventing zone entries and shots against, but didn't have many chances against. I recall for example that they both managed to look horrible in allowing Kessel to get what looked like a 5 bell oppurtunity on a zone entry where he turned Markov inside out only for the pair to manage to break the play up at the last second.


I any event, I totally agree with you that not getting another top 4 guy was a huge missed oppurtunity, especially because Briere was an obvious dumb move. Ever since Hamrlik and Wisniewski left the Habs' 2nd pairing has tended to be their weakest point in the lineup. Although if they spent the money on a guy like Ryder or Jagr who actually can help ES offense, rather than Briere who should be on a 1M "thank you for letting me be in the NHL still" contract, the forward group would be good enough that it wouldn't be a crippling issue.

On the other hand, the presence of Markov is IMO a big reason why it went from being just a point of relative weakness rather than a sucking chest wound dragging everything else down with it as happened in the early and middle stages of the 11-12 catastrophe. For most of 2013 and the start of this season, Montreal has been able to count on the second unit playing their opposition about even to a slight plus. So while its far from ideal, it hasn't been a crippling flaw for this roster.

Size, negative defensive value, age, being horrible at even offense the year before. Lots of reasons to call the Briere signing dumb at 4 million. A team that went 2nd in the conference shouldn't be picking up players from the trash heap unless they are 1) actually good or 2) really cheap. Leaving the money open so you can do a deadline pickup would have been much better than acquiring deadweight.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Goal prevention is a somewhat subjective thing to look at because there are obviously huge enviromental factors for a player and defense itself is really the absence of the other team's offense, and defining the degrees of absence of something is something that is by its very nature difficult to pin down.

But in my subjective opinion, given these facts: shots and goals (about half a goal per hour less, which is massive) against plummet relative to his team when Subban is on the ice, that he is top 20 in the league amoung regular minute defensemen goals and shots against per minute over the previous 3 seasons and that he's been the best player on his pairing the whole way through and his partners get way worse without him, and that he generally plays fairly tough assignments (to the degree that even matters, the spread in minute difficult for top 4 guys isn't that large). I'd have to put him in the top 10 in the league in 5v5 defense. He's death to the oppositions shot on goal rate and doesn't show any signs of hurting save percentage either (Price has put up much better numbers behind Subban than Subban's teammates). The only guy that is obviously better by the numbers I'd have any faith in than him is Chara.

So Chara's numbers are good too. Well that reinforces again what I was thinking. How about Webber? He's got to be high up there as well.

Markov on the other hand, has never been all that successful at 5v5 defense if he wasn't getting strong goaltending behind him. That he plays with scrubs generally has to be a factor, but I'd have a hard time saying he was any better than Hamrlik there and I'd say that he was worse.

That pretty much reinforces the way I always felt about him. Not a liability really but certainly not great in his own zone. Now? He's a liability to a certain extent.

I'd definitely agree there were points where Markov-Diaz was terrible in their own zone. The issue I'd have is considering that the entire sum of defense. Because there's a lot that goes into preventing goals that has to do with having the puck when the other team doesn't. Also, you might not be making distinctions in your memory between 5v5 and PP situations, which are completely different situations.

Checking back, I can find that Markov-Diaz had a pretty crummy game in Toronto at preventing zone entries and shots against, but didn't have many chances against. I recall for example that they both managed to look horrible in allowing Kessel to get what looked like a 5 bell oppurtunity on a zone entry where he turned Markov inside out only for the pair to manage to break the play up at the last second.


I any event, I totally agree with you that not getting another top 4 guy was a huge missed oppurtunity, especially because Briere was an obvious dumb move. Ever since Hamrlik and Wisniewski left the Habs' 2nd pairing has tended to be their weakest point in the lineup. Although if they spent the money on a guy like Ryder or Jagr who actually can help ES offense, rather than Briere who should be on a 1M "thank you for letting me be in the NHL still" contract, the forward group would be good enough that it wouldn't be a crippling issue.

On the other hand, the presence of Markov is IMO a big reason why it went from being just a point of relative weakness rather than a sucking chest wound dragging everything else down with it as happened in the early and middle stages of the 11-12 catastrophe. For most of 2013 and the start of this season, Montreal has been able to count on the second unit playing their opposition about even to a slight plus. So while its far from ideal, it hasn't been a crippling flaw for this roster.

Size, negative defensive value, age, being horrible at even offense the year before. Lots of reasons to call the Briere signing dumb at 4 million. A team that went 2nd in the conference shouldn't be picking up players from the trash heap unless they are 1) actually good or 2) really cheap. Leaving the money open so you can do a deadline pickup would have been much better than acquiring deadweight.

Oh there's no doubt about this. That's actually another reason why I wanted a top four guy. I don't trust Markov to be healthy and if he goes down we are already so thin back there that the gaping chest wound won't be able to be fixed. We REALLY have to hope that he stays healthy now.

 

[Talks to Goalposts]

So Chara's numbers are good too. Well that reinforces again what I was thinking. How about Webber? He's got to be high up there as well.

That pretty much reinforces the way I always felt about him. Not a liability really but certainly not great in his own zone. Now? He's a liability to a certain extent.


Oh there's no doubt about this. That's actually another reason why I wanted a top four guy. I don't trust Markov to be healthy and if he goes down we are already so thin back there that the gaping chest wound won't be able to be fixed. We REALLY have to hope that he stays healthy now.

Markov's defensive value is going to come on controlling the play rather than straight defense IMO. So his effectiveness is going to depend on who he's partnered with to a fair degree.

Chara is epic, nobody else is close.

Weber is kind of an interesting of a case. The Suter-Weber pairing was amazing at preventing goals, right up there with Chara. But in 2013 he nose-dived without Suter the year after. Probably not a problem with Weber so much as Nashville being generally inept, but a fair notice that Josi is no Suter. By the same token, Suter was pretty good but not amazing by the numbers in Minnesota. Weber-Jones has been stellar this year though, so that might have been just a bad year on a horrid team. But I do question casually putting him higher than the likes of Doughty, Subban and Pietroangelo who carry pairings on their own.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Markov's defensive value is going to come on controlling the play rather than straight defense IMO. So his effectiveness is going to depend on who he's partnered with to a fair degree.

I think Markov's value is his offense. Offensively he's lost a step but he's a smart player who sees the ice well and is great with the breakout pass. Without the puck in his own zone though, you're in trouble with him.

Chara is epic, nobody else is close.

Knew he was awesome. Had him as the best defensively but I thought that some guys would be close. Weber especially with Subban and Doughty being there too.

Weber is kind of an interesting of a case. The Suter-Weber pairing was amazing at preventing goals, right up there with Chara. But in 2013 he nose-dived without Suter the year after. Probably not a problem with Weber so much as Nashville being generally inept, but a fair notice that Josi is no Suter. By the same token, Suter was pretty good but not amazing by the numbers in Minnesota. Weber-Jones has been stellar this year though, so that might have been just a bad year on a horrid team. But I do question casually putting him higher than the likes of Doughty, Subban and Pietroangelo who carry pairings on their own.

Weber in front of his own net though is second only to Chara. I mean the guy is a monster. Seth Jones isn't exactly a vet - Weber's gotta be doing the heavy lifting there. He's not Chara but he must be not that far off.

 

[Talks to Goalposts]

Weber in front of his own net though is second only to Chara. I mean the guy is a monster. Seth Jones isn't exactly a vet - Weber's gotta be doing the heavy lifting there. He's not Chara but he must be not that far off.

In front of the net sure, but there is more to that. Weber isn't that great as other elite guys at moving the puck forward.

 

[LeMAD]

I'm massively impressed by Markov's play right now. To be honest, I had really low expectations after a pretty damn bad season last year. But while he's not exactly the player he used to be, he's playing like a good #3 dman right now, while still being a dangeroius player on the PP.

That being said, he had a good start of season last year too. And he's over-used again because of injuries, which could hurt him as the season progresses.