Value of: Giordano to a win-now (non-rebuild) team
- Thread starter Ainsy01
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Why would we trade him? Giordano is fantastic value even at his current hit. I suppose if someone wants to do something stupid I would, but no one is trading us a better, younger defenseman for him. Subban for Weber was two guys making crazy money, neither of whom are as good all around as Giordano.
Flames Fanatic
Mediocre
Gio is a great, great defenseman, but the difference between him and Weber is still pretty significant.
Weber has YEARS of elite play more on his resume than Gio does, and a bigger reputation if nothing else.
This season for me will help me make up my mind about how close the Flames are to competing. If a couple of the following happen, I like our chances of competing sooner than later:
- Bennett takes a step forward
- Backlund maintains his play from the 2nd half of last season (offensively anyways)
- Elliot and Johnson provide at least middle of the pack goaltending
- Gulutzan gets our special teams up to middle of the pack/plays a better puck possesion game
- Brouwer gels well with either a Bennett line or our top line
- One of Shinkurak, Jankowski or Tkachuk steps up as a top six forward in the next year or two.
Some of those are less guaranteed than others, but I feel like this team is closer to competing for a playoff spot than it is finishing bottom 5 again.
I did a whole thing at the end of the season about how if we had had .915 save percentage goaltending (around league average for starters) and our special teams went up to 20th or so in the league, then we were a playoff team.
Part of why I'm hesitant to entertain talk of moving Gio.
Weber has YEARS of elite play more on his resume than Gio does, and a bigger reputation if nothing else.
This season for me will help me make up my mind about how close the Flames are to competing. If a couple of the following happen, I like our chances of competing sooner than later:
- Bennett takes a step forward
- Backlund maintains his play from the 2nd half of last season (offensively anyways)
- Elliot and Johnson provide at least middle of the pack goaltending
- Gulutzan gets our special teams up to middle of the pack/plays a better puck possesion game
- Brouwer gels well with either a Bennett line or our top line
- One of Shinkurak, Jankowski or Tkachuk steps up as a top six forward in the next year or two.
Some of those are less guaranteed than others, but I feel like this team is closer to competing for a playoff spot than it is finishing bottom 5 again.
I did a whole thing at the end of the season about how if we had had .915 save percentage goaltending (around league average for starters) and our special teams went up to 20th or so in the league, then we were a playoff team.
Part of why I'm hesitant to entertain talk of moving Gio.
Flames Fanatic
Mediocre
Disagree entirely. Weber is better than Gio at most things. An argument can be made about Gio being better defensively than Subban though sure.
That comment is gonna cause some grief, but that's hardly new with you I suppose.
Spade
Resident Tool
Not by as much as it used to be and what some people still think, that's for sure. Gio is such a well-rounded player, but he's not a flashy guy so it's hard to judge his talent. Part of that is that I think he genuinely isn't as athletically talented as other top defenders though. He doesn't have the skating of a Karlsson, the size and raw power of a Weber, or the pure endurance and lung capacity of a Doughty.
What he is, is a player who has killed it off the ice and is among the hardest workers in the league. So a guy who has made full use of the video and training available to be one of the smartest players in the league through sheer effort and repetition. Just really great at the nuances and details of the position; it's hard to notice some of the basics because if done right they should never actually be noticed, but Gio has it down pat in terms of where to be, how to position his body and his stick, and how to open up lanes.
I wouldn't trade Gio for any other defender in the league, for a number of reasons, primarily being that the cost of acquiring a legitimately meaningful upgrade on him would not be worth the actual difference in on-ice play at this point in time (i.e. it's not worth it to trade Gio and 2 1sts++ for a guy like Doughty, Hedman or Karlsson when you can just keep Gio who's a number 1 defenseman in the possession metrics, the point production, and the eyetest). Strong case of diminishing returns the higher up you go.
I like the fact that he wasn't a highly touted player. When your captain and All-Star defenseman had to scrap and claw his way to where he is today, he deserves respect. In the notoriously old-school NHL, he plays a huge role in the locker room because of that. And that adversity should theoretically make him a stronger player mentally and capable of remaining consistently productive regardless of circumstances (besides injuries).
He just really fits the kind of team and mentality the Flames management group seems to be gunning for, and the Flames' window of opportunity will either be opening very soon or not at all, so I don't feel they need to trade Gio unless it's really worth it for the team.
We'll see where he'll be at with regards to Gulutzan's method of neutral zone defence (pressuring at the blueline instead of just collapsing into the defensive end, a complete opposite from Hartley) but at this point in time there's no reason to believe he'll be anything less than a 50-point two-way force again.
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As an outsider who didn't watch many Flames games last year, are they really that far off from competing?
Some Other Flame
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Now that Weber plays while Eastern fans are still awake, they'll see him for what he actually is.
Spade
Resident Tool
Somewhere in between the optimist (they're only a goalie away!) and the cynic (only 2 top 6 forwards, poor depth on defense, no bluechip prospects, terrible coaching, poor cap management, + the goalie issues) is the reality.
I look at it as they have good pieces, but they're also banking on a lot of things going right like all rebuilding teams. Right now, heading into the season they have these assets:
-1 75 point winger
-1 60 point center with some size
-1 40 point center with excellent shot metrics
-1 40 point winger with excellent shot metrics
-1 30 point center with a load of potential
-1 35 point winger with size and grit
-1 top 6 rookie draft pick
-1 number 1 two-way defenseman (anywhere from top 10 to top 20 in the league)
-1 number 2 two-way defenseman (with potential to be a number 1)
-1 number 3 offensive defenseman (with two-way potential)
-a starting goalie
-a bunch of depth players, including some one-dimensional defensemen and some veterans who are showing signs of wear and tear
As far as assets that could produce results in a year or two, that's not bad, but if you're Treliving and Gulutzan you're definitely hoping that Bennett does a Monahan and becomes a 60+ point player at some point in the next 2-3 years, Gaudreau and Monahan stay as good as they were last year and the year before for the next decade, that Tkachuk becomes that bruising 50+ point power forward combo with either Monahan or Bennett, that Backlund and Frolik remain solid 2nd line options (with Backlund able to remain productive as a 3rd line anchor), that all of your defensemen hold steady or get better in the cases of Brodie and Hamilton, and that you can get rid of all the dead weight on the cap.
That's ignoring that in order to comfortably have a chance at contending the team still also needs a responsible number 4 defender, a young bottom pairing defenseman with some skill, jump and potential, and at least another legitimate top 6 forward, a capable 3rd liner (or better) and a capable 4th liner out of the Ferland, Jankowski, Chiasson, Poirier, Smith, Hathaway, Shinkaruk, Klimchuk, Mangiapane, Pollock, Pribyl, Dube, Lindstrom, Philips, Mattson, Tuulola, and Karnaukhov group, whether that be by internal development or by using them as assets in a trade.
Reality is that in that prospect group, at least two-thirds of those forwards are going to amount to nothing tangible for the roster, so you're hoping that one or two can turn out and that the rest are able to hold enough value to be packaged for something that actually does hold value for the team.
That's a lot of things that need to at least go somewhat right in order to make a deep playoff run. At this point it could really go either way, although I think that last year in particular was the lowest point and that this team can at least make the playoffs again sometime soon.
The Great Weal
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Spade
Resident Tool
Yeah, don't worry about Double D, he fills a role as the optimist.
Gio is actually really good, top 10 at least IMO. At that point, every player can be argued for or against as to why they're better than the other guy. The fact that he's in the conversation at all is good enough for me.
WannabeFinn
Beloved One
Why trade Gio? You just added a legit goalie and you're going to see more growth from Johnny/Monahan/Brodie/Dougie/etc. not unreasonable to think Calgary can't be a playoff team this season or next.
Dipsy Doodle
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Kobe Armstrong
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LT
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I'd give up a pretty ridiculous amount from Dallas.
Honka + Nuke + 1st, and probably another prospect.
Giordano - Klingberg
Hamhuis - Johns
Lindell - Oduya
Nemeth
As great as that is, I don't see it happening. No reason for Calgary to trade him, and the price would be too rich for Nill to cough up.
Honka + Nuke + 1st, and probably another prospect.
Giordano - Klingberg
Hamhuis - Johns
Lindell - Oduya
Nemeth
As great as that is, I don't see it happening. No reason for Calgary to trade him, and the price would be too rich for Nill to cough up.
Frankly, that's the kind of deal that might make it happen. I don't love the idea, but I wouldn't be shocked if the Flames bit on something like that.
BoldNewLettuce
Esquire
Gio for Fleury and McGinn.
Giordano-Faulk
Hanifin-Slavin
Hainsey-Pesce
I guess they have to fix the other holes first though.
Giordano-Faulk
Hanifin-Slavin
Hainsey-Pesce
I guess they have to fix the other holes first though.
glovesave_35
Name
I am having a hard time with this one. OP is asking about one for one type trades, using the Subban/Weber trade as an example. In this case Giordano is the "Weber". You aren't going to find a high level younger defenseman a team wants to trade away. The Subban situation was....unique.
