Proposal: Gio - Vlasic

[Intent]

The Flames have a history of this too, Giordano's contract is not this abomination that some fans like to make it out to be. People were expecting Giordano to sign for 7.5+ and were surprised that it came in at 6.75. I think VLasic signing at 6.5-7 would still be team friendly considering what he brings and what the market says these guys are worth.

My issue with the contract isn't so much the AAV, Gio is worth it. The problem is length. It runs till he is 39, and Gio's only real criticism is his injury history. Sharks don't give out contracts like that, and I doubt that they are willing to take the risk. Then we tack on that VLasic will get less AAV and length(thats IMO), in all likelihood, and it compounds the issue.

 

[Sideshow Raheem]

Value is there, but our D gets unbalanced. Nice thought, but no thanks.

How the hell does our D get "unbalanced"? We literally have one defenseman capable of generating offense. It's unbalanced right now. Giordano would be a welcome addition as a dman who isn't far off Vlasic defensively but is worlds better offensively.

 

[Intent]

I'm a Sharks fan and I would absolutely do this. Any Sharks fan who wouldn't is insane. Main impediment is making the $ work, Flames would likely have to take Wingels.

Really? Could you please explain your stance?

 

[Intent]

How the hell does our D get "unbalanced"? We literally have one defenseman capable of generating offense. It's unbalanced right now. Giordano would be a welcome addition as a dman who isn't far off Vlasic defensively but is worlds better offensively.

Ah so in your opinion it's an all in move to get us to win now. Fair enough.

 

[Lunatik]

My issue with the contract isn't so much the AAV, Gio is worth it. The problem is length. It runs till he is 39, and Gio's only real criticism is his injury history. Sharks don't give out contracts like that, and I doubt that they are willing to take the risk. Then we tack on that VLasic will get less AAV and length(thats IMO), in all likelihood, and it compounds the issue.

Giordano has less miles on him than most defensemen his age and is one of those fitness freaks. Honestly his injury history isn't much of a concern as there have not been any recurring injuries.

 

[Lunatik]

How the hell does our D get "unbalanced"? We literally have one defenseman capable of generating offense. It's unbalanced right now. Giordano would be a welcome addition as a dman who isn't far off Vlasic defensively but is worlds better offensively.

Ah so in your opinion it's an all in move to get us to win now. Fair enough.

This seems like a deal that would make the most sense in the summer if Burns walks.

 

[Sideshow Raheem]

Really? Could you please explain your stance?

Sure, here is where they rank since 2013 among defensemen with 2500+ 5v5 minutes:

5v5 Points/60
Giordano - 1.10 (7th)
Vlasic - 0.88 (35th)

5v5 Goals/60
Giordano - 0.32 (8th)
Vlasic - 0.24 (33rd)

Relative Corsi%
Giordano - +4.9 (2nd)
Vlasic - +2.7 (23rd)

Relative Fenwick%
Giordano - +3.8% (6th)
Vlasic - +2.8% (16th)

And among defensemen with at least 300 5v4 minutes:

5v4 Points/60
Giordano - 4.40 (15th)
Vlasic - 2.66 (70th)

Giordano is not only miles ahead of Vlasic offensively but actually also has better possession impacts relative to the Flames than Vlasic does relative to the Sharks. The only stat I could find where Vlasic comes out ahead is Relative Goals For% at 5v5 and that's entirely because the Sharks' goaltending has been way better than the Flames' over the last few years. Even in terms of pure defensive statistics, the Flames suppress shots with Giordano on the ice relative to when he's off at a higher differential than the Sharks do with Vlasic on vs. off.

Gio is just flat out the better player and immediately gives us another offensive threat on the blueline to go with Burns. He would exponentially improve our transition game relative to Vlasic, whose passing ability is maybe the weakest part of his game. Of course Gio is older and more expensive but this is realistically the final year of our window so it absolutely makes sense to go for a short-term upgrade like this.

 

[Johnny Hoxville]

I'm a Sharks fan and I would absolutely do this. Any Sharks fan who wouldn't is insane. Main impediment is making the $ work, Flames would likely have to take Wingels.

Honestly I'm not even sure the Flames do this. Gio is our captain and everyone in the room looks up to him. But when you look strictly at teams needs, I think the Flames need to make a move like this to move forward.

 

[Lunatik]

I just want to say anytime trade suggestions for good players are made the threads usually go to crap, the Sharks fans in this thread have been very level headed and haven't been jerky at all. Props to you guys

 

[Tkachuk Norris]

Yep you guys have one of the more level headed fan bases for sure. Imagine if this was a proposal to Philly

 

[MonyontheMoney]

Vlasic is one of my favourite defencemen, so from a Calgary standpoint, I'd absolutely do this. On the flip side though, I'm not sure I would if I were San Jose.

Could be biased since I like Vlasic so much.

 

[Gecklund]

Sharks keep the younger and cheaper D that is also a better fit for our team.

 

[Sideshow Raheem]

Sharks keep the better, younger, and cheaper D.

Two out of three ain't bad.

 

[Johnny Hoxville]

Gio is probably our 2nd best shutdown D, behind Brodie. But he's basically an elite level offensive Dman. The issue is, we don't have an elite shutdown Dman. Engelland has been shining this year in that role so that should say how big of an issue it is for us.

I think value wise, this deal is probably a wash. But it comes down to team needs.

 

[InfinityIggy]

Would consider it from a Flames point for sure. (Ramifications of trading the captain away aside.

I can understand why the Sharks would pass on this though.

 

[Backlund]

Two out of three ain't bad.

Vlasic is better defensively and Gio is better offensively. It really comes down to preference and fit.

With our top 3 defenseman all being offensive, Vlasic would definitely be the better fit for us moving forward.

 

[Sideshow Raheem]

Vlasic is better defensively and Gio is better offensively. It really comes down to preference and fit.

I'm a Sharks fan and I love Vlasic but IMO Gio is better than Vlasic offensively by a vastly greater degree than Vlasic is better than Gio defensively. Gio is the better overall dman.

 

[Intent]

Sure, here is where they rank since 2013 among defensemen with 2500+ 5v5 minutes:

5v5 Points/60
Giordano - 1.10 (7th)
Vlasic - 0.88 (35th)

5v5 Goals/60
Giordano - 0.32 (8th)
Vlasic - 0.24 (33rd)

Relative Corsi%
Giordano - +4.9 (2nd)
Vlasic - +2.7 (23rd)

Relative Fenwick%
Giordano - +3.8% (6th)
Vlasic - +2.8% (16th)

And among defensemen with at least 300 5v4 minutes:

5v4 Points/60
Giordano - 4.40 (15th)
Vlasic - 2.66 (70th)

Giordano is not only miles ahead of Vlasic offensively but actually also has better possession impacts relative to the Flames than Vlasic does relative to the Sharks. The only stat I could find where Vlasic comes out ahead is Relative Goals For% at 5v5 and that's entirely because the Sharks' goaltending has been way better than the Flames' over the last few years. Even in terms of pure defensive statistics, the Flames suppress shots with Giordano on the ice relative to when he's off at a higher differential than the Sharks do with Vlasic on vs. off.

Gio is just flat out the better player and immediately gives us another offensive threat on the blueline to go with Burns. He would exponentially improve our transition game relative to Vlasic, whose passing ability is maybe the weakest part of his game. Of course Gio is older and more expensive but this is realistically the final year of our window so it absolutely makes sense to go for a short-term upgrade like this.

So for me, it boils down to how we win. We score more goals, we win(duh). And you can achieve this by either preventing goals against, or generating goals for. Now that means I put the most stock in GF and GA, cuz they both matter.

2015-2016(cuz this season is too small a sample size and both have started terribly)
Giordano: GF/60-2.52 GA/60-2.80
Vlasic: GF/60-2.83 GA/60-2.17

We can pretty much throw out Gio's GA/60 cuz we know about Calgary's goaltending last year. But even accounting for Vlasic's insane year offensively, what is important, IMO, is the disparity in him driving offense AND suppressing GA. But, Vlasic does this with a paltry 26% OZFO(vs Gio at 30%). So, to me, he defends better(slightly), and while he doesn't score as much individually, he is able to contribute to team offense just as much, or even more. No, I certainly admit the margins between the players is not great, especially defensively, Gio is still quite proficient. Both face top competition, and both tend to come out on top. Difference is Vlasic just does so a bit better. We know unequivocally that Gio is better offensively, but then why does the team score at similar rates (lets be real Vlasic isn't gonna be at a 2.8 clip again)when they are on the ice? Answer is Vlasic gets the puck into the hands of players that can score very effectively.

Edit: Went and found a 3 year sample size.
2013-2016
Giordano: GF/60-2.41 GA/60-2.38
Vlasic: GF/60-2.58 GA/60-1.99
for reference Brent Burns: GF/60-2.69 GA/60-2.32

 

[Sideshow Raheem]

So for me, it boils down to how we win. We score more goals, we win(duh). And you can achieve this by either preventing goals against, or generating goals for. Now that means I put the most stock in GF and GA, cuz they both matter.

2015-2016(cuz this season is too small a sample size and both have started terribly)
Giordano: GF/60-2.52 GA/60-2.80
Vlasic: GF/60-2.83 GA/60-2.17

We can pretty much throw out Gio's GA/60 cuz we know about Calgary's goaltending last year. But even accounting for Vlasic's insane year offensively, what is important, IMO, is the disparity in him driving offense AND suppressing GA. But, Vlasic does this with a paltry 26% OZFO(vs Gio at 30%). So, to me, he defends better(slightly), and while he doesn't score as much individually, he is able to contribute to team offense just as much, or even more. No, I certainly admit the margins between the players is not great, especially defensively, Gio is still quite proficient. Both face top competition, and both tend to come out on top. Difference is Vlasic just does so a bit better. We know unequivocally that Gio is better offensively, but then why does the team score at similar rates (lets be real Vlasic isn't gonna be at a 2.8 clip again)when they are on the ice? Answer is Vlasic gets the puck into the hands of players that can score very effectively.

Edit: Went and found a 3 year sample size.
2013-2016
Giordano: GF/60-2.41 GA/60-2.38
Vlasic: GF/60-2.58 GA/60-1.99

No the answer is that Vlasic plays behind much better forwards than Giordano does. There's no one on the Flames who comes close to Joe Thornton or Joe Pavelski's even strength scoring prowess.

 

[Intent]

No the answer is that Vlasic plays behind much better forwards than Giordano does. There's no one on the Flames who comes close to Joe Thornton or Joe Pavelski's even strength scoring prowess.

Ah, but the defenseman that plays with them is Brent Burns. Vlasic gets most of his playtime with other forwards, and they aren't the Joes either. I need to find data for this tho, cuz thats me being anecdotal and that could definitely be incorrect. Also I'm not 100% sure that Gio plays with the Monahan line all the time.

 

[Igor Shestyorkin]

The reason why Calgary's D is so flawed is because their 3 D-men after Gio, Brodie, and Hamilton all suck.

 

[Lunatik]

The reason why Calgary's D is so flawed is because their 3 D-men after Gio, Brodie, and Hamilton all suck.

Said by someone who has clearly not watched a Flames game this year

 

[Igor Shestyorkin]

Said by someone who has clearly not watched a Flames game this year

Then how do you see it, Einstein?

 

[Tkachuk Norris]

The reason why Calgary's D is so flawed is because their 3 D-men after Gio, Brodie, and Hamilton all suck.

Last year yes. Actually this year Engelland and Kulak have been really good. Brodie's been bad. Gio struggled for a few games (although IMO he's been great lately). Hamilton has had about 6 god awful games this year.

Jokkipakka and Wideman have struggled though.

More then anything it's Brodie and Hamilton. Brodie went from being a star last year to struggling immensely this year. He's too skilled to not figure it out, just like Gaudreau.

 

[OvermanKingGainer]

If there were a Sharks Dman I would want to trade for, it'd be a smaller trade, like Jokipakka for Schlemko. I feel both Calgary and San Jose should be happy with Vlasic-Braun-Burns and Giordano-Brodie-Hamilton, so this trade doesn't really make sense. The functional difference between the two teams is the difference between Couture/Thornton/Pavelski/Marleau with their thousands of games of experience and the still developing Monahan/Bennett/Gaudreau/Tkachuk. Vlasic would look worse defensively in Calgary while being less offensive.