Generational Talents

[Lafleurs Guy]

Rocket Richard
Gordie Howe
Doug Harvey
Bobby Hull
Dominik Hasek
Lindros (unfulfilled)
Ovechkin
Crosby
McDavid

I think Guy Lafleur would qualify. Six year peak thats otherworldly including the playoffs. Ken Dryden has an insane shorter career.

So many are on the cusp - from the 80s onward: Bossy, Messier, Bourque, Yzerman, Sakic, Lidstrom... Yzerman was absolutely insane over a six year stretch but it’s overshadowed by Gretz/Lemieux.

 

[SladeWilson23]

Regarding the 80's it's hard to argue that Mike Bossy didn't produce ahead of the curve. Gretzky and Lemieux produced ahead to curve by bigger margins than Bossy did, but I do believe Bossy still did produce ahead of the curve.

No other player did score 50+ goals 9 straight seasons like Bossy did. That is a fact.

Bossy being the 4th fastest to 1000 can't be ignored. Bossy scoring 50 goals 9 straight seasons can't be ignored.

Remember that Gretzky, Lemieux, and Bossy weren't the only ones playing during the 80's.

Does that make Bossy generational? I guess it depends.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Regarding the 80's it's hard to argue that Mike Bossy didn't produce ahead of the curve. Gretzky and Lemieux produced ahead to curve by bigger margins than Bossy did, but I do believe Bossy still did produce ahead of the curve.

No other player did score 50+ goals 9 straight seasons like Bossy did. That is a fact.

Bossy being the 4th fastest to 1000 can't be ignored. Bossy scoring 50 goals 9 straight seasons can't be ignored.

Remember that Gretzky, Lemieux, and Bossy weren't the only ones playing during the 80's.

Does that make Bossy generational? I guess it depends.

I’d have no issue with someone who said he was. Same with Lafleur.

Messier, Yzerman, Sakic… not quite but close. Yzerman’s injury in 94 turned him from borderline generational to merely fantastic. That guy was unreal especially considering the clubs he was on. Only misses the Lafleur 6x 50/100 by a couple of goals in one of those seasons. He was spectacular.

 

[SladeWilson23]

I’d have no issue with someone who said he was. Same with Lafleur.

Messier, Yzerman, Sakic… not quite but close. Yzerman’s injury in 94 turned him from borderline generational to merely fantastic. That guy was unreal especially considering the clubs he was on. Only misses the Lafleur 6x 50/100 by a couple of goals in one of those seasons. He was spectacular.

If I remember correctly, Yzerman has the highest point total in a season for any player not named Gretzky or Lemieux.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

If I remember correctly, Yzerman has the highest point total in a season for any player not named Gretzky or Lemieux.

Correct. The previous year he missed like 20 games and still managed to get 50/100+ and in 1990 he had a Hart caliber season on a terrible club. He was a phenomenal player. Was never the same after that knee injury though.

Players like Sakic and Jagr aged better as they got older but Yzerman at his peak was just one notch below Gretz/Mario. I think prime Yzerman would give McDavid a serious run for his money.

 

[Score08]

There are zero current nhl players that qualify as generational. Has nothing to do with the skill set and everything to do with their time in grade. Stop with the fan boy worship.

 

[daver]

Correct. The previous year he missed like 20 games and still managed to get 50/100+ and in 1990 he had a Hart caliber season on a terrible club. He was a phenomenal player. Was never the same after that knee injury though.

Players like Sakic and Jagr aged better as they got older but Yzerman at his peak was just one notch below Gretz/Mario. I think prime Yzerman would give McDavid a serious run for his money.

Yzerman had one season that on the level of "generational" in 88/89 and another season where he arguably wins an Art Ross in a league with no Mario/Wayne. So do MacKinnon and Kucherov (and Malkin).

A great player who deserves to be in the Top 40 all-time he was not a "generational" prospect/player like McDavid, Crosby, Ovechkin, Lindros or Jagr.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Yzerman had one season that on the level of "generational" in 88/89 and another season where he arguably wins an Art Ross in a league with no Mario/Wayne. So do MacKinnon and Kucherov (and Malkin).

A great player who deserves to be in the Top 40 all-time he was not a "generational" prospect/player like McDavid, Crosby, Ovechkin, Lindros or Jagr.

Six straight years of 50/100 minus one season where he was off by a couple of goals.

Over those six years he averaged 57 goals and 69 assists per 80 games. Good for 126 points. Insane numbers - especially when you consider he's putting up almost 60 goals a year to go with those assists. Over that period he's 100 points better than the next closest player and 75 points away from Gretzky. Closer to Gretzky than anyone below him is insane. Best player in hockey by a mile over that period with the exception of two of the best players ever. And he did it on a team mostly filled with scrubs.

Give the man some respect.

 

[daver]

Six straight years of 50/100 minus one season where he was off by a couple of goals.

Over those six years he averaged 57 goals and 69 assists per 80 games. Good for 126 points. Insane numbers - especially when you consider he's putting up almost 60 goals a year to go with those assists. Over that period he's 100 points better than the next closest player and 75 points away from Gretzky. Closer to Gretzky than anyone below him is insane. Best player in hockey by a mile over that period with the exception of two of the best players ever. And he did it on a team mostly filled with scrubs.

Give the man some respect.

Not that insane given many others were hitting those numbers at the same time.

He had one real outlier season then was

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Not that insane given many others were hitting those numbers at the same time.

He had one real outlier season then was

It’s not one outlier season. 88 was a a monster year with him getting hurt. He was on pace for 65/131. In 90 he scores 60 goals. 93 it’s 130 plus.

Like I said 75 points away from Gretz over that stretch and the next closest player behind him is 100 away. He’s not Gretzky but he’s a level above everyone else. If Mario/Gretz aren’t around we’re talking about him as a generational player. He averages more points over that six year stretch than Bossy’s best six.

And I can’t stress this enough, those teams were terrible. He had very little help for the most part. He wasn’t getting passes from Paul Coffey, Denis Potvin or Larry Robinson. Averaging 57 goals and 126 points over six years is unreal. And the next guy behind him was Gretzky’s teammate.

 

[daver]

It’s not one outlier season. 88 was a a monster year with him getting hurt. He was on pace for 65/131. In 90 he scores 60 goals. 93 it’s 130 plus.

You seem to be unable to put those numbers into context.

In 1988, he was 4th in PPG behind Savard. He was on a very good goal pace and likely wins the goal title (if no Mario). Very good for a 22 year old player but nothing that stands out as "generational". Bossy was as good at age 22, Stamkos did as well at age 21. Matthews too.

1988/89, he truly stands out from the pack, although Nichols did too which was a bit weird.

In 1989/90, he is behind Messier in points and Hull in goals. Another great season but not on par with the peaks of McDavid, Crosby or Jagr.

In 90/91, he is 7th in points and 7th in PPG.

In 91/92, he 7th in points and 9th in PPG

In 92/93, he is 4th in points and 5th in PPG.


From '88 to '90, he is the clear best player besides Wayne and Mario with a PPG of 1.72 (Nichols - 1.52, Savard - 1.48, Messier 1.46) and a GPG of 0.79 (Hull - 0.65, Lafontaine 0.64)

Then from '91 to '93, he is a Top 3/5 player.

McDavid and Crosby were top players from age 19 until age 28/29. Jagr was there for 7 seasons.

If Yzerman kept his age 22 - 24 pace up then, yes, he would be in their tier. His 88/89 season is a statistical anomaly.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

You seem to be unable to put those numbers into context.

Put them into whatever context you wish. He piles up points and goals at a rate higher than anyone not named Mario or Wayne over those six years. Closer to Gretzky in points than the next closest player behind him.

In 1988, he was 4th in PPG behind Savard.

Eliminate Lemieux and Gretz from the equation. They are arguably the two best players of all time. That leaves Savard and Yzerman was on pace to win the Richard that year.

1988/89, he truly stands out from the pack, although Nichols did too which was a bit weird.

Nothing weird about it for Nichols. Gretzky joined the team. Yzerman was by himself.

In 1989/90, he is behind Messier in points and Hull in goals. Another great season but not on par with the peaks of McDavid, Crosby or Jagr.

He was the best player in the league not named Gretz/Mario. He was on a crap team otherwise he would've won the Hart trophy.

And how is that not on par with McDavid? Does McDavid win the scoring title every year? No he does not. And Yzerman scores goals at an extremely high rate... Bossy like production. Much better than Jagr or McDavid.

In 90/91, he is 7th in points and 7th in PPG.

In 91/92, he 7th in points and 9th in PPG

Yep. But they're still outstanding years. You don't need to be 1st every year. Jagr wasn't. Bossy wasn't. Lafleur wasn't. McDavid isn't. 91 is an off year and he still comes in 2nd in goals. In 92 four guys ahead of him are either Mario Lemieux, Wayne Gretzky or teammates of those guys...


From 88 to 90 he's the best player in the league. In the following three seasons he's merely awesome.

In 92/93, he is 4th in points and 5th in PPG.

Again, eliminate Gretz/Lemieux. He'd be 2nd.

From '88 to '90, he is the clear best player besides Wayne and Mario with a PPG of 1.72 (Nichols - 1.52, Savard - 1.48, Messier 1.46) and a GPG of 0.79 (Hull - 0.65, Lafontaine 0.64)

Then from '91 to '93, he is a Top 3/5 player.

Show me a player who's best in the league six straight years.

Even Lafleur didn't do that. McDavid isn't. Only Gretz/Lemieux have that kind of domination.

McDavid and Crosby were top players from age 19 until age 28/29. Jagr was there for 7 seasons.

If Yzerman kept his age 22 - 24 pace up then, yes, he would be in their tier. His 88/89 season is a statistical anomaly.

McDavid and Crosby and even Jagr didn't score goals anywhere near the amount that Yzerman did. Jagr had Mario Lemieux feeding him pucks for a good chunk of his prime and he's on the cusp of generational as well.

Yzerman's injury in 94 slowed him down considerably. From then on he's not the same player. But over that six year period he's head and shoulders the best player in hockey - by a lot. He's not regarded nearly as highly as he should be. Part of the reason for that is that by the time he actually had a good team to play on his prime was over.

His combination of goals and points are insane. You have to go to Mike Bossy/Guy Lafleur to find that combination over that period of time. Lights out the best player in the game for three straight years and the best over a six year period. Please find me players who can do that with the goal production Yzerman had. The list will be very short and it will have generational players like Bobby Hull/Gordie Howe on it.