Romang67
BitterSwede
Absolutely. Which is why no one is claiming someone else from that era was comparable to Gretzky. As they shouldn't have (if they indeed did) with Bossy.
Generational Talents
- Thread starter glenngineer
- Start date
jigglysquishy
Registered User
The Stanley Cup was 51 years old when the Original Six started. You're missing out on 50% of hockey history.
Bear of Bad News
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Just know that fifty years from now, there will be people who feel the same about the hockey that you currently enjoy and comment on.
Ace Card Bedard
Back in Black, Red, and White
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I can't say I've seen a defenseman meet the standards of dominance since Bobby Orr.
Goaltenders? Jacques Plante I guess but that was in the 50's and 60's.
Golden_Jet
Registered User
- Sep 21, 2005
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The original 6 didn’t start until the 40’s, when the NHL officially began it was the original 4.
Toronto, Ottawa and 2 Montreal teams.
- Aug 24, 2011
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Since 2016/17 (after McDavid's 40 game rookie season) until this past season McDavid is...
-1st in points
-Has a 144 point lead over 2nd place (Draisaitl) his teammate, in 10 less games
-Has a 1.56 PPG which blows away his closest competition (Kucherov), averaging an additional 14pts per season more
-Is 1st in Playoff PPG
-2nd only to Kucherov in total playoff points but Kucherov has a whopping 28 more playoff games than McDavid
-Won a Smythe without winning the Cup
-5x Art Ross, 4x Pearson, 3x Hart, and a Richard in his trophy case
-The only people with as many or more Ross trophies as McDavid are: Gretzky, Howe, Esposito, Jagr, and Lemieux.
-The only people with as many or more Hart trophies are: Gretzky, Howe, Shore, Clark, Lemieux, Morenz, Orr, and Ovechkin (i'll toss a Hart Crosby's way because he missed out on a 2011 Trophy he surely would've won if not for injury)
-The only people with as many or more Lindsay/Pearson trophies are: Gretzky and Lemieux (i'll toss another one Crosby's way for 2011 as well). Jagr, Ovie, and Lafleur have 3 each
McDavid is generational.
Everything pre Orr was barely an organized sport. I recognize the history and awesome the NHL has been around that long, but yes that is a completely different generation and sorry, not sorry, but when there are only a handful of teams in a league for 50+ years, I dont take that too seriously amongst the greats who are doing it with 20-30+ teams. They paved the way, sure, but there wasnt much competition to be "generational" amongst your peers.
Fifty years from now, we will have 40-50 teams in the league and maybe be international, but we will still recognize Gretzky, Lemieux, Crosby, and McDavid as the greats over randoms from the 30s that no one has ever heard of.
Bear of Bad News
"The Worst Guy on the Site" - user feedback
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I mean, you can say this all you'd like. People were saying similar stuff fifty years ago.
I'm just saying that there's a cohort of people fifty years out who aren't going to give a <hoot> about today's GOATs for similar reasons to the ones you're espousing now,.
Oh, and we're "international" now.
sinDer
Registered User
Generational talents come into the league and are able to record over a PPG in their first year (forwards). And while most players fall off a cliff between 30 and 33, generational talents will keep their high level of play in their mid thirties or even late thirties.
Crosby and Ovechkin are generational talents. McDavid is too.
With that being said, players like Lemieux and Gretzky dominated their peers like no other players did, which makes them the best players of all time. I guess we could say that they are a tier above Generational talent, if that makes sense...
Crosby and Ovechkin are generational talents. McDavid is too.
With that being said, players like Lemieux and Gretzky dominated their peers like no other players did, which makes them the best players of all time. I guess we could say that they are a tier above Generational talent, if that makes sense...
WarriorOfGandhi
Was saying Boo-urns
"If you teleported Nic Deslauriers IV back in time against pre-cyborg players like Connor McDavid, how many Monsanto Art Ross trophies would he win?"
Romang67
BitterSwede
Nepo baby Deslauries IV is playing in the softest era of hockey ever. He wouldn't have lasted 5 games back before power shields became mandatory.
Crow
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Cubs2024wildcard
America F YEAH!!!
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TIL- Bossy was the third fastest to 1k points.
And people really think Crosby is either generational or better then Bossy?
Come on now....
And people really think Crosby is either generational or better then Bossy?
Come on now....
Hockey Outsider
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The NHL averaged about 7.52 goals per game from 1978 to 1986 (the years it took Bossy to reach 1,000 point).
The NHL averaged about 5.63 goals per game from 2006 to 2017 (the years it took Crosby to reach 1,000 point).
Bossy got to 1,000 points 15% faster than Crosby (656 vs 757 games). But he did it in a league featuring 35% more offense. What Crosby did is more impressive, and it's not particularly close.
Not to mention Bossy was incredibly durable until he suddenly wasn't and promptly retired. With the amount of games he played, you'd expect he'd have more than two retro Rockets to his name. Never led the league in scoring, never won the Hart. It can be argued he wasn't even the best player on his team, that was probably Potvin. And one could make a case for Trottier being ahead of Bossy as well.
Cubs2024wildcard
America F YEAH!!!
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With this logic, Gretzkys and Marios stats are also subjected to the same...ahem...scrutiny.
Hockey Outsider
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Yes, obviously they are. Why would I use this argument only against Mike Bossy? Every player from that era, including Gretzky and Lemieux, have stats that are inflated relative to today.
Even after making reasonable adjustments for the scoring environment, Gretzky and Lemieux are far ahead of anyone playing today - McDavid, Crosby, Ovechkin, whoever. But the next level of stars (Bossy, Trottier, Dionne, Lafleur, Yzerman - whoever else) aren't. If you don't consider the scoring environment, you get some wacky conclusions that are plainly false (did Denis Maruk and Bernie Nicholls peak higher than Crosby and Ovechkin?)
If your position is "the numbers are what they are, context be damned", would you agree to pay me $100 US dollars today, and I can pay you back $100 New Zealand dollars in ten years? A hundred is a hundred, after all.
norrisnick
The best...
- Apr 14, 2005
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If a lot of that history pre-dates the forward pass it's a completely different sport and shouldn't really be lumped together. Rugby players aren't compared to American football players throughout history and neither of those factor into the real football (soccer) history.
Cubs2024wildcard
America F YEAH!!!
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Because with this logic, players in lower scoring eras, since now we have to nitpick eras to prop up players, are equal to Gretzky and Mario?
This is what we have come to as a society.
Again, Bossy averaged 50 goals a season for nine years, something thats never been done before or after to go along with the third fastest to 1k points.
What are these "reasonable adjustments " that suddenly says he isnt just as far ahead as the two generational talents listed above when his own team mates said if he didnt have back issues he would have shattered Gretzkys goal scoring record?
i mean who do i believe? Actual players or somebody on a message board?
Sorry, McDavid is right up there with Gretzky and Mario. Hes what, fourth fastest to 1k?
Hes right up there with....ahem...Bossy too, whos stats are inflated for some reason...
Good lord....
If your argument is "well Maruk and Nicholls had single outlier years apiece and that's equal to Mike Bossys nine seasons of consecutive 50 goals, it's the era he played in and not his talent", then you lost the argument.
Scoring was higher in the 80s. How many players during the 80s scored 50 goals for nine consecutive seasons? One? How many players had 9 seasons during their careers with 50 goals? Two?
100 dollars in the 80s was worth 100 dollars.
With inflation, the value of 100 dollars is less in 2024. But in the 80s, it's still 100 dollars. You cannot argue the value of money because in the 50s, 100 dollars was worth considerably more then in the 1980s.
Does that make it better? If so.....
Cubs2024wildcard
America F YEAH!!!
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