Generational Talents

[wintersej]

Quick litmus test.

If the player you are talking about doesn’t have more than one Hart trophy, he ain’t it.

 

[psycat]

I think that when Crosby was being hyped up back in 2005, the expectation was that he would completely destroy and dominate the League, and that's why the term "generational" was used to describe him. It was thought there would be only one player that good in a generation.

But in his first few years, he couldn't clearly separate himself from Ovechkin, so it made no sense to call him generational unless you called Ovechkin that as well. I believe many called Ovechkin generational his first few years in the League. Obviously he hasn't been as good since his peak seasons, but he's going to break Gretzky's goal record and has more hardware than some of the name players in NHL history combined. Can a player really go from being generational to not being generational?

Whatever definition you go by, if Crosby is generational, then McDavid is as well. He is at least as good a player and is clearly the best of his generation.

Ovechkin is a generational goalscorer but not overall player for me, Crosby is just you "average Canadian super center" of which there is atleast one in the league at pretty much any given time, not generational.

McDavis is the only generational player since Mario(and Hasek I suppose) for me but then again it's all semantics.

 

[qc14]

For me I think of it as the "modern" NHL has been around for lets say 60ish years -- give me one generational player per 10 years the league has existed, plus another 4 to not punish guys for the luck of the draw, and you have to be a top 10 player of all time to be generational.

That gives you undoubtedly Gretzky, Orr, and Lemeiux. I think most people would agree on Jagr and Crosby as well. Ovi, McDavid, and Lidstrom are the next group for me but I get how you can make an argument against any of them. Need a goalie so I'll take Hasek as well.

The last spot could go to a pretty wide list of guys -- Borque? Yzerman? Roy? Sakic? Brodeur? In fact, too many for me that in my arbitrary criteria I'm cutting it down to top nine player of all time to be generational: Gretzky, Orr, Lemeiux, Jagr, Crosby, Ovi, Lidstrom, McDavid, Hasek.

 

[Voight]

People fail to realize that generational talents are hyped before they play in the NHL. Youl; hear about them when they're 12, 14 years old and it goes from there.

 

[wintersej]

For me I think of it as the "modern" NHL has been around for lets say 60ish years -- give me one generational player per 10 years the league has existed, plus another 4 to not punish guys for the luck of the draw, and you have to be a top 10 player of all time to be generational.

That gives you undoubtedly Gretzky, Orr, and Lemeiux. I think most people would agree on Jagr and Crosby as well. Ovi, McDavid, and Lidstrom are the next group for me but I get how you can make an argument against any of them. Need a goalie so I'll take Hasek as well.

The last spot could go to a pretty wide list of guys -- Borque? Yzerman? Roy? Sakic? Brodeur? In fact, too many for me that in my arbitrary criteria I'm cutting it down to top nine player of all time to be generational: Gretzky, Orr, Lemeiux, Jagr, Crosby, Ovi, Lidstrom, McDavid, Hasek.

I don’t think a guy who was never even a Hart finalist can sniff this list.

 

[Cubs2024wildcard]

Literally anyone with half a braincell can tell you why Crosby is better than Bossy.

No they can't, but I'm almost positive you are going to try...

Career points: 1603 points in 1282 games for Crosby, 1126 points in 752 games for Bossy

Um...OK?

We're leaving out something huge but I'm positive I will get to it shortly.

Major awards: Crosby has 2 Harts, 2 Rosses, 2 Richards, 3 Pearsons, 2 Conn Smythes and 3 cups. Bossy has 1 Calder, 2 Richards (equivalent since the award didn't exist yet), 1 Smythe and 4 cups.

I'm going to say it again-

Awards are irrelevant outside of Cups. And no, thats not to fit any agenda on my part. If you look in any award voting, you will see Rod friggin Langway recieved first place votes when Gretzky was on another level then the rest of the league.

In what universe when Gretzky was compiling 200 point seasons did Rod Langway deserve a first place vote?

so when it comes to individual awards, you are on an island. Crosby has 3 cups, Bossy has 4. Its pretty much even with a small nudge towards Bossy.

What argument do you even have for Bossy over Crosby?

OK the biggest one;

Bossy has 5 60 goal seasons.

How many players in the history of the NHL have 5 60 goal seasons? Two.

Gretzky, and Bossy.

Bossy played 10 seasons and in half of them he scored 60 goals or more.

that, is dominance. How many 60 goal season does Sid have? None.

How many 50 goal season does Sid have? One
How many does Bossy? 9 in ten years!!

Crosby has longetivity on him.

With this logic Crosby> Orr too?

Crosby has individual awards on him.

ummm....ok?

Crosby has production on him (no, playing in the 1980s doesn't by default make someone better than someone who played in the 2000s).

So Gtetzky and Marios numbers are sus too?

Or is it just Bossy?

Literally all Bossy has on Crosby is PPG (because he played in the 1980s)

So it's players who played in the 80s fault they wernt born in a different decade now?

This is scraping the bottom of the barrel copium

and cups (because he was on a better team).

Bossy had no part in making that team better? A regular 50 goal scorer was just a passenger now?

And even if you want to look at their stats up to age 30 (pretending Crosby just retired at that point), Crosby's numbers are still better when you take into account leaguewide scoring:

Crosby: 864 games, 411 goals and 1116 points in a league that averaged 5.28 goals/game (1.29 points/game)
Bossy: 752 games, 573 goals and 1126 points in a league that averaged 7.35 goals/game (1.50 points/game)

This is like the steroid argument in baseball....

Bossy produced like 15% more than Crosby despite scoring being 40% higher. And now add on that Bossy didn't play after 30, didn't win as many awards and didn't produce nearly as many total points, and you'd have to be Mike Bossy's family member to argue them over Crosby.

Stats don't lie, and you cannot just pick a generation and say "nope, that's not better then the current one" because all that is is a "cuz I said so".

If Crosby is a generational talent, then Bossy, Lafleur, Beliveau, and a whole list of others are.

If you need to cherry pick awards, and eras to state your case when it took Crosby 19 years to score as many goals as Bossy did in 10, you didnt fact check good enough.

How many players in the history averaged 50 goals a year for 9 years? 3
The goat, the guy whos probably going to beat the goat....

And mike Bossy.

That is dominance, that is generational talent.

That's not Sidney Crosby no matter how ever you want to try and spin it.

I feel like I'm losing brain cells even entertaining this argument.

That's on you. Not everybody bought into the generational hype the media put on Sid.

Maybe this would hold more weight if Gretzky wasn't beating Bossy by literally 50+ points a season for scoring titles. Saying Bossy was the "second best player after Greztky" is baseless, it's not even clear that he was better than guys like Stastny, Trotier, Dionne or Lafleur. Hell, Lafleur seems pretty clearly better to me.

(Spits out Red Bull)

When the hell did you start watching hockey?

Edit- and I just want to point out Bossy has more 50 goal seasons then Mario.

Mike Bossy is one of the most under rated talents on this forum cuz most who post here never actually saw him play outside of youtube.

 

[Empoleon8771]

No they can't, but I'm almost positive you are going to try...


Um...OK?

We're leaving out something huge but I'm positive I will get to it shortly.


I'm going to say it again-

Awards are irrelevant outside of Cups. And no, thats not to fit any agenda on my part. If you look in any award voting, you will see Rod friggin Langway recieved first place votes when Gretzky was on another level then the rest of the league.

In what universe when Gretzky was compiling 200 point seasons did Rod Langway deserve a first place vote?

so when it comes to individual awards, you are on an island. Crosby has 3 cups, Bossy has 4. Its pretty much even with a small nudge towards Bossy.

OK the biggest one;

Bossy has 5 60 goal seasons.

How many players in the history of the NHL have 5 60 goal seasons? Two.

Gretzky, and Bossy.

Bossy played 10 seasons and in half of them he scored 60 goals or more.

that, is dominance. How many 60 goal season does Sid have? None.

How many 50 goal season does Sid have? One
How many does Bossy? 9 in ten years!!


With this logic Crosby> Orr too?


ummm....ok?


So Gtetzky and Marios numbers are sus too?

Or is it just Bossy?


So it's players who played in the 80s fault they wernt born in a different decade now?

This is scraping the bottom of the barrel copium


Bossy had no part in making that team better? A regular 50 goal scorer was just a passenger now?

This is like the steroid argument in baseball....


Stats don't lie, and you cannot just pick a generation and say "nope, that's not better then the current one" because all that is is a "cuz I said so".

If Crosby is a generational talent, then Bossy, Lafleur, Beliveau, and a whole list of others are.

If you need to cherry pick awards, and eras to state your case when it took Crosby 19 years to score as many goals as Bossy did in 10, you didnt fact check good enough.

How many players in the history averaged 50 goals a year for 9 years? 3
The goat, the guy whos probably going to beat the goat....

And mike Bossy.

That is dominance, that is generational talent.

That's not Sidney Crosby no matter how ever you want to try and spin it.

That's on you. Not everybody bought into the generational hype the media put on Sid.

(Spits out Red Bull)

When the hell did you start watching hockey?

The mental gymnastics you have to do to say "individual awards don't matter but 50 goal seasons matter" is Olympic level. It's also funnier to bring up goals as if Bossy was leading the league in goal scoring every year, when he only led the league in goals twice. Which is the same amount of times that Crosby has led the league in goals.

Your argument in here is "individual awards, career production, longetivity and league environment don't matter, all that matters is total amount of cups and how many 50 goal seasons". People can believe whatever they want, but I think that alone just sums up how nonsensical your argument is.

 

[Cubs2024wildcard]

The mental gymnastics you have to do to say "individual awards don't matter but 50 goal seasons matter" is Olympic level. It's also funnier to bring up goals as if Bossy was leading the league in goal scoring every year, when he only led the league in goals twice. Which is the same amount of times that Crosby has led the league in goals.

We can tell you're a Blackhawks fan because you were probably using these "CUPS!!!" arguments to argue why Toews was better than Crosby too.

50 goal seasons don't matter now?

Lol wat?

 

[Empoleon8771]

50 goal seasons don't matter now?

Lol wat?

Your argument in here is "individual awards, career production, longetivity and league environment don't matter, all that matters is total amount of cups and how many 50 goal seasons". People can believe whatever they want, but I think that alone just sums up how nonsensical your argument is.

Which is why other people are using the laugh response to your posts because everyone else realizes your argument is nonsensical as well.

 

[Cubs2024wildcard]

Your argument in here is "individual awards, career production, longetivity and league environment don't matter, all that matters is total amount of cups and how many 50 goal seasons". People can believe whatever they want, but I think that alone just sums up how nonsensical your argument is.

Which is why other people are using the laugh response to your posts because everyone else realizes your argument is nonsensical as well.

No, the point was;

"Why is Mike Bossy better then Sidney Crosby"

9 50 goal seasons, and 5 60 goal seasons.

Those are generational numbers no matter what era you are in.

How many players in the 80s had 5 60 goal seasons? Since you know, the 80s were so easy to score and all....

2?

Sidney Crosby is a great player.

But he's no Mike Bossy.

Hopefully I get a bunch of laughing emojis....

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

Ovechkin is a generational goalscorer but not overall player for me, Crosby is just you "average Canadian super center" of which there is atleast one in the league at pretty much any given time, not generational.

McDavis is the only generational player since Mario(and Hasek I suppose) for me but then again it's all semantics.

Never in hockey has there been an average superstar center with 8 top 3 scoring finishes and 6 top 2 hart finishes. Smh

 

[Cubs2024wildcard]

As for Lindros;

How many people hear actually saw Lindros play and not just on youtube?

Lindros was a monster. A mean Mario and I don't ever compare players to Mario. The guy would literally turn players into pancakes on the boards,score with pillow soft hands, then take on the other teams goon. There will never be another Eric Lindros and it's a damn shame the guys brains were turned into mush along with all the other injuries.

If Lindros and McDavid both came out in the same draft, alot of GMs would take Lindros.

If it was Lindros and Crosby, I'm positive 90% would take Lindros.

 

[VivaLasVegas]

IMHO, the greatest players in any sport don't need a tag, "generational" or otherwise, but are simply known by name to successive generations of fans who never even saw them play. You don't have to say that Wayne Gretzky or Bobby Orr were anything but themselves.

See also, Babe Ruth, Joe Namath, Michael Jordan, etc., there just is no confusing them with anybody else.

That's my purely subjective take on the subject anyway. Viva la difference!

 

[Cubs2024wildcard]

IMHO, the greatest players in any sport don't need a tag, "generational" or otherwise, but are simply known by name to successive generations of fans who never even saw them play. You don't have to say that Wayne Gretzky or Bobby Orr were anything but themselves.

See also, Babe Ruth, Joe Namath, Michael Jordan, etc., there just is no confusing them with anybody else.

That's my purely subjective take on the subject anyway. Viva la difference!

That generational crap is only a hockey thing.

I don't think Tom Brady gives two craps if people call him generational, nor his fans.

They know what he is.

 

[MMANumminen]

I will just add players I have seen so Orr and Howe and few others are out of my list.
So talent, not career

Tier A:
Gretzky
Lemieux

A-
Lindros
McDavid

B+
Crosby
Ovi
Jagr
Forsberg

 

[jaywills1020]

Generational players are hands and feet better the next best tier of players. Gretzky, Lemieux and Orr were. Sorry but McDavid is not hands and feet better then the tier of players under him. If Mcdavid is a generational player then so is Jagr and Lidstrom.

 

[Brookbank]

People fail to realize that generational talents are hyped before they play in the NHL. Youl; hear about them when they're 12, 14 years old and it goes from there.

I agree.

Bedard was the youngest player ever profiled on The Hockey News.

https://thehockeynews.com/news/meet-the-future-of-hockey-13-year-old-connor-bedard

 

[northeastern]

Gretzky, Orr, and Lemeiux are the top of my list... in that order. Mcdavid and lindros are close, Crosby and jagr are the next tier.

Ovi is a generational goal scorer and shooter, but not overall talent in my honest opinion.

 

[LuckyDay]

It was during Lemieux's time that the word "superstar" was bandied about to separate him and Gretzky from the "stars" (there are stars; then there are superstars) in the game like Lafontaine, the Statsny's, Denis Savard, Turgeon, etc.

Now this new word for them that implies they only come along once in a generation.
I think Gretzky, Lemieux, Orr, Bobby Hull, Maurice Richard, McDavid, Hasek, "Cyclone" Taylor, Tretiak, all fall in this category but there's also a certain amount of fame involved.
Where do you put guys like Mike Bossy, Phil Esposito, Stan Mikita, Doug Harvey, Gump Worsely, Jaque Plante, Joe Malone, Guy Lafleur, Marcel Dionne, Brett Hull, Ron Hextall, Kharmalov and any dozens of others. Many argued for years that Bossy was on par with Gretzky and Mikita was superior than Hull. Taylor is now forgotten and to most Vichaslav "stick the fat guy in net" Tretiak would no longer be on that list (I'm not saying he belongs there but his reputation was that high during his career). Roy would be on most peoples list but he didn't invent the butterfly style though he pioneered oversized equipment for goalies but should he be lauded for that?

 

[Brookbank]

I would suggest that, in terms of talent, Eric Lindros was generational.

Yes. But that's basically how the term generational came along. It was observable before he even played a game in the NHL.

And the same observations were made with Crosby , McDavid and Bedard.

Nobody knew who Kucherov was before he entered the league. He was drafted 58th over all. I remember when he went on his first heater , ppl still didn't expect him to be what he is. No matter what he does , he's not considered generational be because he never had that Lindros effect

 

[Signupnow]

I am gong to go with the guy who is about to make the most goals in the history as being one of them.

 

[Cubs2024wildcard]

Many argued for years that Bossy was on par with Gretzky

This 100%

If you were around in the 80s, this was actually debated.

This is why you can easily tell on this forum who was around in the 80s and who wasn't. Who is getting their info off youtube and hockey reference and who actually saw Bossy, Lafleur, and Lindros and put them all as borderline generational talents.

It's the Jordan/LeBron effect. If you only watched LeBron chances are high you are going to say he's the goat, but if you actually saw Jordan your going to say "LeBrons great, but he ain't Jordan".

Sidney Crosby is not a generational talent. He's a great player, but nobody can even come close to convince anybody statistically how he's better then Mike Bossy. If your defense is individual awards, and the other defense is 5 60 goal seasons out of ten, you lost the argument.

Victory Lap- unlocked

 

[Cubs2024wildcard]

Quick litmus test.

If the player you are talking about doesn’t have more than one Hart trophy, he ain’t it.

So individual awards> on ice production?

Micheal Jordan lost MVPs to players who were not on his level. Barkley won the MVP in 92 when Jordan averaged over 30 a game that year, was a unanimous all defensive team, had an ungodly 17 win share next to Barkleys 14, and spanked Charles in every stat except rebounds and FG%.

Who would you rather have that year? The MVP?

Or Jordan?

 

[wintersej]

So individual awards> on ice production?

Micheal Jordan lost MVPs to players who were not on his level. Barkley won the MVP in 92 when Jordan averaged over 30 a game that year, was a unanimous all defensive team, had an ungodly 17 win share next to Barkleys 14, and spanked Charles in every stat except rebounds and FG%.

Who would you rather have that year? The MVP?

Or Jordan?

If Michael Jordan never won an MVP he would have been John Havlicek. We aren’t talking about one year, we are talking about career. If you were never viewed as the best player you sure as hell can’t be a once in a generation guy.

 

[Cubs2024wildcard]

If Michael Jordan never won an MVP he would have been John Havlicek. We aren’t talking about one year, we are talking about career. If you were never viewed as the best player you sure as hell can’t be a once in a generation guy.

Your missing the point.

Awards are voted on by the media. Many of whom never played and have home town bias.

Rod friggin Langway recived a first place vote two years in a row during Gretzkys cosplaying Darth Vader on the NHL.

Micheal Jordan was not only on Gretzkys level during his prime, he was losing MVP awards to players nowhere deserving of it.

Mcdavid won the Smythe on a losing team last year because the voters probably thought to themselves "well there's no way he's winning a Cup with that goaltending and Nurse on the blue line" so they threw him a bone.

Individual awards voted on by media will always be flawed next to on ice production.

.....unless you played in the 80s, of course....