OT: Generational Players

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Gretzky and Mario would score far less, that is an indisputable fact. The fact that you are implying that it was harder to score in the Eighties and early 90's is laughable and entirely refuted by the facts.

Gretzky, Orr and Mario were great players and would be in any generation but McDavid is absolutely on par with them imo. I watched Wayne and Mario's entire careers including before they were drafted and their stats were inflated by playing in a watered down league with terrible goalies and poor defensive systems. Perhaps you should take a look at the rest of the scoring leaders and the top goalies stats lol. You are simply arguing solely from bias and have zero evidence to support your claim.

Gretzky would struggle the most out of the three that I mentioned as he did not have the speed or physicality that the others brought. Gretzky took advantage of absurdly poor competition and was in the right place at the right time. He would still be a great player but if you think Gretzky would be anywhere remotely close to 200 points in today's NHL you are putting forth a delusional narrative.
People severely underestimate how good the league is right now, the skating is phenomenal and skills are far greater than they were in the day. I agree Greztky would suffer the most as his speed and lack of strength would be an issue for him. Orr and Mario would adapt, but I don't think they would dominate like they did back then, of the three I think Mario would fair the best. The goal tending back then was laughable by todays standards as well, brutal actually.
 
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1990 Sakic: 102 pts
2007 Sakic: 100 pts
2025 Sakic: ECHL

“Hurrr durr 55 year-old Sakic would know better than to try.”

The biggest, most sophisticated worldwide pool of hockey players entered the league in the past 20 years, where the league kept a status quo on its number of teams for 15 years, something that hadn't happen since the O6. You can literally see the effect it had, where year after year, scoring dwindled until it reached almost dead puck era levels in 2015. That was despite a new reffing era that eliminated a lot of the physicality in the game. How did that happen, really. We know why the DPE happened, though. Goalie equipment was augmented in the mid-90's and reffing was stiffled. But how did 2015 happen? Look at the game today vs back then and the answer is easy. The level of hockey being played is much faster, more sophisticated and with a much higher level of league-wide talent, making time and space on the ice much much smaller than it was. Before Vegas, last expansion was 2003 iirc. 2007 is a bad example because the league's talent level still hadn't reach what it was from 2015 onward. There was a needed period of talent saturation and 2007 is way too early in that process.
 
The biggest, most sophisticated worldwide pool of hockey players entered the league in the past 20 years, where the league kept a status quo on its number of teams for 15 years, something that hadn't happen since the O6. You can literally see the effect it had, where year after year, scoring dwindled until it reached almost dead puck era levels in 2015. That was despite a new reffing era that eliminated a lot of the physicality in the game. How did that happen, really. We know why the DPE happened, though. Goalie equipment was augmented in the mid-90's and reffing was stiffled. But how did 2015 happen? Look at the game today vs back then and the answer is easy. The level of hockey being played is much faster, more sophisticated and with a much higher level of league-wide talent, making time and space on the ice much much smaller than it was. Before Vegas, last expansion was 2003 iirc. 2007 is a bad example because the league's talent level still hadn't reach what it was from 2015 onward. There was a needed period of talent saturation and 2007 is way too early in that process.
So, assuming you were paying attention when Joe Sakic and Alex Kerfoot were at their respective peaks, how many points do you think 26 year-old Joe Sakic puts up in 2024-2025?

To make it easier, Mike Pezzetta starts 18 games at LW, not 30 games as a healthy scratch.
 
For me, it’s pretty simple. A generational player is simply best at his position let alone the league. They’ll have a few attributes that are clearly beyond any current player. As the name implies, they come literally once a generation though we can narrow it down to perhaps 7-10 years. These are players who were not just hyped in juniors, but delivered almost immediately in the NHL.

Right now it’s McDavid. I really don’t see how this can be argued. Previous would be Crosby, Mario, the Great One, Orr…

I hear the term franchise used a lot, and I would use that as a description on a tier below generational. This is a player you build a team around who are more than just elite. McKinnon, Kuch and Matthews for example.

I know there are players that blur things, especially when they are contemporaries to some generational players; Ovi

Currently, i don’t see anyone supplanting McDavid. Perhaps McKenna or it’ll be somebody else we haven’t seen yet.
 
So, assuming you were paying attention when Joe Sakic and Alex Kerfoot were at their respective peaks, how many points do you think 26 year-old Joe Sakic puts up in 2024-2025?

To make it easier, Mike Pezzetta starts 18 games at LW, not 30 games as a healthy scratch.

The whole point is it would be hard to tell. There's very little time and space on the ice, but goalie equipment has been reduced. You nor I can't know how this or that player would fair back then or now. It's just a fact that the game is quicker and the level of talent is higher. Players today indeed benefit, from childhood to adulthood, of a different environment they have to adapt to their entire lives, but you can't simply pretend Gretzky or Sakic or whoever else, would end-up the same in those different environments. The speed of the game is absolutely different and there's no telling if they'd adapt as good in this environment.

But the truly bonkers statement is believing McDavid would be only Sakic or Yzerman level back in the 90's when we know full well that he has adapted to a much higher speed of the game and its more restrictive space, which is what I was truly responding to, previously to another poster, about Sakic, which you seemed to be following upon.
 
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For me, it’s pretty simple. A generational player is simply best at his position let alone the league. They’ll have a few attributes that are clearly beyond any current player. As the name implies, they come literally once a generation though we can narrow it down to perhaps 7-10 years. These are players who were not just hyped in juniors, but delivered almost immediately in the NHL.

Right now it’s McDavid. I really don’t see how this can be argued. Previous would be Crosby, Mario, the Great One, Orr…

I hear the term franchise used a lot, and I would use that as a description on a tier below generational. This is a player you build a team around who are more than just elite. McKinnon, Kuch and Matthews for example.

I know there are players that blur things, especially when they are contemporaries to some generational players; Ovi

Currently, i don’t see anyone supplanting McDavid. Perhaps McKenna or it’ll be somebody else we haven’t seen yet.
Demidov? ;)

I agree that the term generational should get limited to the maximum, or redefined, if not.

A generation is 20 years. Even if we limited it to 10 years, or even 7, we shouldn't see that many names come up -- even if it is possible for two names to come up within the same period.

Orr transformed the game, Gretzky and Lemieux as well. I'm not sold on McDavid having transformed the game, but, through sheer consistency at such a high level, I think that McDavid and Crosby could be deemed generational. It,s difficult with players like Ovechkin, but he's such a physical specimen with scoring prowess that I would also consider him generational.

Franchise players is a more appropriate term, as you suggest, that encompasses a much larger sample of players. Automatically, for example, Ovechkin is at least that.

It can be a G, while the team still has an elite C that produces 80-90 points per season without being a franchise player or a generational player.

Elite Cs, to take just one position as an example, should be PPG Cs, or 70-point Cs that are excellent shutdown Cs.

Danault, for example, even if he was the best shutdown C, would never come close to being considered elite at his position, but Bergeron, however, would.

Franchise players apply to McKinnon, for example, but not to Rantanen, because Rantanen's amazing production levels are really tied to playing with McKinnon, IMHO.

If McDavid is a franchise player (not a generational player, IMO), what is there to say about Draisaitl? Could he also be a franchise player? Personally, I would take Draisaitl over McDavid, but that's a personal choice where I think that McDavid doesn't really bring what he takes as a mega pay cheque and I don't see much of a difference when you look at the bang for the buck on Draisaitl's contract and how it gives you the ability to add more talent under the cap for not that much of a difference in impact on the ice.
 
Gretzky and Mario would score far less, that is an indisputable fact. The fact that you are implying that it was harder to score in the Eighties and early 90's is laughable and entirely refuted by the facts.

Gretzky, Orr and Mario were great players and would be in any generation but McDavid is absolutely on par with them imo. I watched Wayne and Mario's entire careers including before they were drafted and their stats were inflated by playing in a watered down league with terrible goalies and poor defensive systems. Perhaps you should take a look at the rest of the scoring leaders and the top goalies stats lol. You are simply arguing solely from bias and have zero evidence to support your claim.

Gretzky would struggle the most out of the three that I mentioned as he did not have the speed or physicality that the others brought. Gretzky took advantage of absurdly poor competition and was in the right place at the right time. He would still be a great player but if you think Gretzky would be anywhere remotely close to 200 points in today's NHL you are putting forth a delusional narrative.
One problem with your premise. The league was watered down not just for Wayne and Mario but for everyone. Why didn't we have more Waynes and Marios back then?

The CBC The Nature of Things made a video a while back showing how modern day sprinters are not faster than sprinters from Jesse Owens days. Although not a one to one comparison with hockey, many of the points in this video about equipment and facilities apply to hockey

 
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The whole point is it would be hard to tell. There's very little time and space on the ice, but goalie equipment has been reduced. You nor I can't know how this or that player would fair back then or now. It's just a fact that the game is quicker and the level of talent is higher. Players today indeed benefit, from childhood to adulthood, of a different environment they have to adapt to their entire lives, but you can't simply pretend Gretzky or Sakic or whoever else, would end-up the same in those different environments. The speed of the game is absolutely different and there's no telling if they'd adapt as good in this environment.

But the truly bonkers statement is believing McDavid would be only Sakic or Yzerman level back in the 90's when we know full well that he has adapted to a much higher speed of the game and its more restrictive space, which is what I was truly responding to, previously to another poster, about Sakic, which you seemed to be following upon.

Back in 2002, Lemieux scored 91 points in 67 games as a 38 year old. How many points would a 24 year old Lemieux have scored in that league?

I'm not sure if the talent pool today is that much bigger. Hockey is much more expensive for parents, in Canada (half the talent) it probably barely scratches the working class and middle class talent pool.

Gretzky grew up in an apartment, it's not clear if he makes the NHL these days. His parents were working class, but back then working class people had more time to spend with their kids, and do things like take their two year old to the skating rink on a regular basis. There's a 2 year, 10 month old Gretzky out there right now, and his parents don't have time to take him to the backyard rink on a regular basis. He's watching Netflix instead.

Mario Lemieux is from Quebec. There, the parents of athletically talented children now barely produce hockey players. Their kids often do other sports or simply don't do sports that much.

How is a 37 year old Crosby who's suffered enough injuries to end multiple careers going ppg playing on a weak team?
 
Back in 2002, Lemieux scored 91 points in 67 games as a 38 year old. How many points would a 24 year old Lemieux have scored in that league?

I'm not sure if the talent pool today is that much bigger.

FFS, dude, world population has almost doubled since then, hockey programs expanded in hockey nations and the league didn't expand for nearly 15 years. Back in 2002, the league had spent the last 10 years adding 5-6 more teams, diluting the rosters further still.

Go look at league wide scoring between 2008 and 2018. Scoring dwindled year after year despite reffing being more disciplinary. That's the impact of not having any expansions and saturating the league with talent. A generation of players who also had the most sophisticated development of any pool in history.

Further still, go look at the best on best matchups of 2002, look at the time and space and then go look at last year's final or WCF. It's a different game.

People love the past.
 
FFS, dude, world population has almost doubled since then,

Completely irrelevant. Hockey doesn't evenly sample the global population independently of time, place, and socioeconomic status.

Here's Gretzky's pair of skates from when he was 2 years, 10 months old, that doesn't happen much these days.


By the way, 37 year old Crosby has 58 points in 55 games. What would 20 year old Crosby have? Because in 2008 Crosby had 72 points in 53 games. If you argue that the league today is stronger than the league in 2008, then you have to argue that Crosby today is a better hockey player than he was in 2007, after 17 years of aging and injuries. Good luck.
 
People severely underestimate how good the league is right now, the skating is phenomenal and skills are far greater than they were in the day. I agree Greztky would suffer the most as his speed and lack of strength would be an issue for him. Orr and Mario would adapt, but I don't think they would dominate like they did back then, of the three I think Mario would fair the best. The goal tending back then was laughable by todays standards as well, brutal actually.
Saying a lack of strength would hurt Gretzky is just making things up.

Kucherov led the league with 144 points last season. Smaller than Gretzky. So is Panarin, Marner, Hughes, Connor, Point, Bratt, Aho ….

None dominate with their “strength”.
 
We don't have any in the pool at the moment.

The total population of Canada has gone up by a lot, but I think the number of two and three years olds playing hockey on ice near their homes has gone down by even more.

Every year in Canada there are 350,000 children born. How many of them will have the opportunity to develop hockey skills?

Would Gretzky have had the same hockey IQ if he had started as an 8 year old by going to an expensive program his parents took him to for one hour a week?
 
People severely underestimate how good the league is right now, the skating is phenomenal and skills are far greater than they were in the day. I agree Greztky would suffer the most as his speed and lack of strength would be an issue for him. Orr and Mario would adapt, but I don't think they would dominate like they did back then, of the three I think Mario would fair the best. The goal tending back then was laughable by todays standards as well, brutal actually.
Yeah but players were allowed to tackle Lemieux. He’d be unstoppable today. With the non obstruction rules how do you even begin to defend against him?

As I mentioned before, he came back as an old man - with more modern goaltending - and destroyed the league.

He’d have more points today than he did back then and he’d be a lot more healthier too.
 
Saying a lack of strength would hurt Gretzky is just making things up.

Kucherov led the league with 144 points last season. Smaller than Gretzky. So is Panarin, Marner, Hughes, Connor, Point, Bratt, Aho ….

None dominate with their “strength”.
the modern athlete is far stronger than the athlete's of yesteryear.
 
Who's the better driver, Ayton Senna or Max Verstappen?

How would Verstappen do if he was sent back in time and given a Ferrari from 1988 to 1992?
 

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