General Off-Day Thread (bitch about Mike Sullivan)

[OtherThingsILike]

This is fan fiction, right?

Nope, it's fan fact, though.

Name one player of significance he has "developed" since 2017.

In addition to the defensemen that @Empoleon8771 named, there is also Drew O'Connor, Teddy Blueger, Jamie Oleksiak, Evan Rodrigues (not a young player, but definitely developed here), and Frederick Gaudreau (ditto).

 

[Icarium]

In addition to the defensemen that @Empoleon8771 named, there is also Drew O'Connor, Teddy Blueger, Jamie Oleksiak, Evan Rodrigues (not a young player, but definitely developed here), and Frederick Gaudreau (ditto).

The fact that you think these players are significant is pretty telling. Might as well add ZAR while you are at it.

 

[OtherThingsILike]

The fact that you think these players are significant is pretty telling. Might as well add ZAR while you are at it.

I'm not sure what you consider to be a significant player, but those are most of the best younger players we've had anywhere in the NHL or AHL since 2017. (Prior to this season.)

 

[BusinessGoose]

My guy

Oleksiak played two half seasons here and was playing in minors and NHL for like half a decade already before arriving here


We did not develop that player

Lofl

 

[Randy Butternubs]

ERod and Freddy G (nice jazz duo name) are pushing it too.

 

[Deport Ogie]

My groin snapped trying to accomodate the stretch that ERod was not fully formed after having years in the NHL prior. Tripping into a career best season after multiple years does not equal development.

By that argument, hat tip to Ivan Hlinka for doing an awesome job FINALLY developing Alexei Kovalev in 2000.

 

[Buddy Bizarre]

Nope, it's fan fact, though.

Oh cool. Opinions are now facts .
Great to know.

 

[Empoleon8771]

I don't think Sullivan "developed" ERod, but I think how Sullivan used ERod in 2021-2022 opened up the eyes of a lot of other teams that ERod was actually a pretty good player if you used him in a middle-6 role. I don't give credit to Sullivan for "developing" ERod there, but I would give credit to Sullivan for using him in that role and showing to the league that ERod was a good middle-6 winger. I don't think ERod would be where he is today had Sullivan not used him like he did in 2021-2022, so I think that counts for something.

But yeah, that doesn't fall in the "young players Sullivan has developed" group. It's pretty much just Pettersson and maybe Marino in the recent memory.

 

[SomeDude]

While we’re at it, Dan Bylsma should get credit for developing Jarome Iginla. Before him, nobody considered moving him to his off wing.

 

[Deport Ogie]

I don't think Sullivan "developed" ERod, but I think how Sullivan used ERod in 2021-2022 opened up the eyes of a lot of other teams that ERod was actually a pretty good player if you used him in a middle-6 role. I don't give credit to Sullivan for "developing" ERod there, but I would give credit to Sullivan for using him in that role and showing to the league that ERod was a good middle-6 winger. I don't think ERod would be where he is today had Sullivan not used him like he did in 2021-2022, so I think that counts for something.

But yeah, that doesn't fall in the "young players Sullivan has developed" group. It's pretty much just Pettersson and maybe Marino in the recent memory.

This is something it feels like the Pens used to be so much better at: just taking "failed" players and turning them into useful members of society by knowing their best usage. Daley and Schultz come to mind.

 

[SomeDude]

This is something it feels like the Pens used to be so much better at: just taking "failed" players and turning them into useful members of society by knowing their best usage. Daley and Schultz come to mind.

We’ve also been pretty equally good at getting little to nothing out of players and having them go to being useful somewhere else. Granlund, Matheson, McCann, Perron come to mind.

 

[Empoleon8771]

This is something it feels like the Pens used to be so much better at: just taking "failed" players and turning them into useful members of society by knowing their best usage. Daley and Schultz come to mind.

JR was fantastic at acquiring those kind of players and Hextall and Dubas have just been terrible at acquiring them.

 

[Buddy Bizarre]

JR was fantastic at acquiring those kind of players and Hextall and Dubas have just been terrible at acquiring them.

It's certainly an acquisiton (or non acquistion in this case). But you have to DEVELOP those players. Sully's assistants over the years did all that heavy lifting. That doesn't happen anymore, which is why I'm frightened about this next phase of Pens hockey. No one is being developed.

 

[Empoleon8771]

It's certainly an acquisiton (or non acquistion in this case). But you have to DEVELOP those players. Sully's assistants over the years did all that heavy lifting. That doesn't happen anymore, which is why I'm frightened about this next phase of Pens hockey. No one is being developed.

What exactly is this based on?

The Penguins have had mostly the same assistant coaches for the last 5 years.

 

[Buddy Bizarre]

What exactly is this based on?

The Penguins have had mostly the same assistant coaches for the last 5 years.

Right and who have we imported in 5 years that has gotten BETTER?

Daley and Schultz were prime examples of guys underperforming on their old teams and we turned their game around.

 

[CheckingLineCenter]

While I think Sullivan should still get credit for making Daley, Schultz, Hags etc work… on top of making do with pluggers like young Rust, Sheary, Scott Wilson

I do think it gets lost that those guys also were playing in a system with prime Crosby, Malkin, and Letang. And a winger in Kessel who was orob one of the best 20 forwards in the league.

I know this board knows how good they are so don’t need to remind anyone

but to put it in todays terms it’s literally like if McDavid and MacKinnon played together with Charlie McAvoy and then added Kyle Connor or Filip Forsberg. You could plug a lot of players into that set up and they’d do well.

 

[Buddy Bizarre]

While I think Sullivan should still get credit for making Daley, Schultz, Hags etc work… on top of making do with pluggers like young Rust, Sheary, Scott Wilson

I do think it gets lost that those guys also were playing in a system with prime Crosby, Malkin, and Letang. And a winger in Kessel who was orob one of the best 20 forwards in the league.

I know this board knows how good they are so don’t need to remind anyone

but to put it in todays terms it’s literally like if McDavid and MacKinnon played together with Charlie McAvoy and then added Kyle Connor or Filip Forsberg. You could plug a lot of players into that set up and they’d do well.

I get that, but Justin Schulz was a barely passable #5/6 Dman when he was with the Oilers and with us. Remember during the Cup run, Schulz would get like 10 minutes of ice time. He was flat out a bad player.

The next season with us he really improved. Probably moved up to a 3/4 Dman. And while his game eventually fell off back to a #5 guy there was dramatic improvement even when Kessel, Horny, etc got shipped out.

 

[CheckingLineCenter]

The next season with us he really improved. Probably moved up to a 3/4 Dman. And while his game eventually fell off back to a #5 guy there was dramatic improvement even when Kessel, Horny, etc got shipped out.

Hmm I don’t remember it that way. He definitely played more in year 2 but I remember him being excellent right away, albeit in a smaller role.

In 15-16 he got to play PP with 3 of the best players in the world at the time.

Then he kinda started to suck yeah.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Right and who have we imported in 5 years that has gotten BETTER?

Daley and Schultz were prime examples of guys underperforming on their old teams and we turned their game around.

They had the same assistants in like 2019-2022 when they were getting players like that. Heinen sticks out as an obvious example.

I think the reality is that both Hextall and Dubas have done a terrible job at acquiring players with boom potential and it's really hard for players to hit that boom potential when the team is a tire fire like it has been for the past few years.

While I think Sullivan should still get credit for making Daley, Schultz, Hags etc work… on top of making do with pluggers like young Rust, Sheary, Scott Wilson

I do think it gets lost that those guys also were playing in a system with prime Crosby, Malkin, and Letang. And a winger in Kessel who was orob one of the best 20 forwards in the league.

I know this board knows how good they are so don’t need to remind anyone

but to put it in todays terms it’s literally like if McDavid and MacKinnon played together with Charlie McAvoy and then added Kyle Connor or Filip Forsberg. You could plug a lot of players into that set up and they’d do well.

Honestly I think this is a pretty big factor too. Malkin and Letang have taken massive steps back at this point, the only way that a player could be put in a position to explode would be playing with Crosby at this point. Which is exactly what we're seeing from Rakell right now.

I think it becomes really difficult for those reclamation style projects to hit their potential when they're most likely playing with crap.

 

[SEALBound]

While I think Sullivan should still get credit for making Daley, Schultz, Hags etc work… on top of making do with pluggers like young Rust, Sheary, Scott Wilson

I do think it gets lost that those guys also were playing in a system with prime Crosby, Malkin, and Letang. And a winger in Kessel who was orob one of the best 20 forwards in the league.

I know this board knows how good they are so don’t need to remind anyone but to put it in todays terms it’s literally like if McDavid and MacKinnon played together with Charlie McAvoy and then added Kyle Connor or Filip Forsberg. You could plug a lot of players into that set up and they’d do well.

Very true. Having Sid and Geno solves a lot of issues for the GM and head coach for a lot of years. That's why if you want to look at players that developed well under Sullivan, I think you have to look more at the defense and bottom 6 and even goalies. Low hanging fruit - goalies suck so our development is not great, though I'll be the first to admit that it's a finicke position anyway so it's hard to place much blame on the organization or Sullivan.

For the bottom 6, we've had a lot of guys in and out and there's only so much to glean from it over the years but I don't know of many examples where a young guy came in, got limited minutes, developed well, and made it "big". I think Rust and Sheary are probably good examples. That said, that's 16/17 Sullivan who I believe is different than 25 Sullivan. ZAR to an extent in that he's a capable 4th line player. A good example of lack of development would be DOC. He's more or less the same player as he was when he came into the league. He's just naturally a bit better by virtue of games played.

I don't think it's a coincidence now that Sid, Geno, and Letang are slowing down that Sullivan's coaching system/style and lack of ability to develop are being exposed.

 

[vodeni]

I don't think Sullivan "developed" ERod, but I think how Sullivan used ERod in 2021-2022 opened up the eyes of a lot of other teams that ERod was actually a pretty good player if you used him in a middle-6 role. I don't give credit to Sullivan for "developing" ERod there, but I would give credit to Sullivan for using him in that role and showing to the league that ERod was a good middle-6 winger. I don't think ERod would be where he is today had Sullivan not used him like he did in 2021-2022, so I think that counts for something.

But yeah, that doesn't fall in the "young players Sullivan has developed" group. It's pretty much just Pettersson and maybe Marino in the recent memory.

Yes and add to that, if I remember correctly just when Erod was getting super hot, killing on PP and 5 on 5 as soon as Rust came from the injury he dropped him off PP and down in the line up and that was pretty much it, he reverted back to kind of mediocre

 

[Khelandros]

Yes and add to that, if I remember correctly just when Erod was getting super hot, killing on PP and 5 on 5 as soon as Rust came from the injury he dropped him off PP and down in the line up and that was pretty much it, he reverted back to kind of mediocre

You forgot to add "reverted back to kind of mediocre after being developed by MS."

 

[DesertedPenguin]

Geno says he's not retiring after this year despite some local speculation from the likes of Mark Madden.

Also, he only wants to play for the Penguins and does not plan to play professionally in Russia.

Evgeni Malkin won’t retire after this season, will play only for Penguins: ‘This is my only team’

Malkin dispelled rumors that said he'd forgo his final NHL season to return to his hometown team in Russia.

www.nytimes.com

 

[Buddy Bizarre]

Geno says he's not retiring after this year despite some local speculation from the likes of Mark Madden.

Also, he only wants to play for the Penguins and does not plan to play professionally in Russia.

Evgeni Malkin won’t retire after this season, will play only for Penguins: ‘This is my only team’

Malkin dispelled rumors that said he'd forgo his final NHL season to return to his hometown team in Russia.

www.nytimes.com

Rough year for Geno. Injured and believe he's also going through a divorce?

 

[DesertedPenguin]

Rough year for Geno. Injured and believe he's also going through a divorce?

Nothing confirmed about his personal life but there does seem to be some sort of split/separation/difficulty.