GB belongs to the A and not in the B

[SoundAndFury]

However, I think I completely missed your point, I thought you were suggesting that more of them should be at the Elite WC (Top Division) but you actually want a bigger 2nd Division, which makes much more sense to me.

Yes, that's why I replied. It might have been called in a certain other way 20 years ago like stv said, but nowadays it just caused unnecessary confusion. It wasn't hard to understand in the OP but made further discussion rather wonky.

Instead they went to D1A and ran hot enough to earn promotion to the top group.

It also can be noted GB got promoted by saving themselves in the final game of D1A when they scored with 15s left to tie it against Hungary. And Hari didn't score on the penalty shot with 3 minutes left to make it 3-1. Had Hungarians scored that penalty shot, or empty netter, or hang on for 15 more seconds and none of this happens.

The tournament took place in Budapest and before that GB - Hungary game everyone thought the home side is a clear favorite. To the heartbreak of the crowd it proved not to be.

 

[stv11]

It also can be noted GB got promoted by saving themselves in the final game of D1A when they scored with 15s left to tie it against Hungary. And Hari didn't score on the penalty shot with 3 minutes left to make it 3-1. Had Hungarians scored that penalty shot, or empty netter, or hang on for 15 more seconds and none of this happens.

The tournament took place in Budapest and before that GB - Hungary game everyone thought the home side is a clear favorite. To the heartbreak of the crowd it proved not to be.

That was one of the craziest combination of results you'll ever find, Italy and Slovenia both pulling the goalie, then that goal not only giving GB promotion over Hungary, but also to Italy over Kazakhstan.

I think an 8 team 2nd tier would make sense, there are decent teams at this level and having a more serious tournament could only benefit them. On the other hand, I'm not sure I agree with your idea of having a smaller top tier. 16 teams didn't make sense to me back in 1998, but now everyone can hang on at the top level. If you had only 14 teams you would end up relegating teams that have managed to stay at the top level for a long time like Norway, Denmark, or France until 2019 and have successfully built a strong programme, while making it harder for teams like Austria to get a shot at the top level. And if only one team was promoted it could make it really hard to get out of DIA.

 

[3 Minute Minor]

That was one of the craziest combination of results you'll ever find, Italy and Slovenia both pulling the goalie, then that goal not only giving GB promotion over Hungary, but also to Italy over Kazakhstan.

I think an 8 team 2nd tier would make sense, there are decent teams at this level and having a more serious tournament could only benefit them. On the other hand, I'm not sure I agree with your idea of having a smaller top tier. 16 teams didn't make sense to me back in 1998, but now everyone can hang on at the top level. If you had only 14 teams you would end up relegating teams that have managed to stay at the top level for a long time like Norway, Denmark, or France until 2019 and have successfully built a strong programme, while making it harder for teams like Austria to get a shot at the top level. And if only one team was promoted it could make it really hard to get out of DIA.

nonono pls dont touch the lower tiers

I hated this D1A/D1B/D2A format when it was first introduced but it's been one of the best things IIHF has ever done. Tournaments are more competitive than ever at every age group in every division.

D1A is one of my favourite tournaments to follow. I feel like those players are playing for more than almost anyone in the top group, that promotion is such an exciting achievement

 

[stv11]

nonono pls dont touch the lower tiers

I hated this D1A/D1B/D2A format when it was first introduced but it's been one of the best things IIHF has ever done. Tournaments are more competitive than ever at every age group in every division.

D1A is one of my favourite tournaments to follow. I feel like those players are playing for more than almost anyone in the top group, that promotion is such an exciting achievement

Yeah, D1A is really competitive, but I think there's room for an 8 team tournament. Would give more programmes a chance to play decent opposition like Austria or Hungary, and a country like Poland could build its team without fearing relegation.

And playing 7 competitive games a year could only help, 5 is not enough for that level of play.

 

[Albatros]

Will be more difficult to find host cities if you need two arenas and arrangements for more teams.

 

[Lambo]

Would be great for hockey as a sport if it could grow in the UK. I think there are a lot of growth potential for hockey in the UK, France and Germany. If we could get those major European economies investing more in hockey, then there is potential for stronger European leagues and act as a counter balance against NHL.

Never ever! Football(Soccer) is too dominant.

 

[stv11]

Will be more difficult to find host cities if you need two arenas and arrangements for more teams.

2nd tier used to have 8 teams and it wasn't an issue. It's doable with only one arena as it's basically the same as one group of the top tier tournament.

And we're talking cities like Budapest, Ljubljana, Vienna... these places have enough hotel capacity for 8 teams.

 

[Albatros]

Several of the lower divisions consist entirely of amateur athletes and fan involvement is very limited, there should be no comparison to how the top division is organized.

 

[SoundAndFury]

Several of the lower divisions consist entirely of amateur athletes and fan involvement is very limited, there should be no comparison to how the top division is organized.

Well we are talking about D1A only where there are no amateur players yet. Although I do agree fans are relatively small part of the considerations making the tournament not so hectic has its upsides from a sporting perspective.

 

[stv11]

Several of the lower divisions consist entirely of amateur athletes and fan involvement is very limited, there should be no comparison to how the top division is organized.

No amateur players at the D1A level, and the home team regularly plays in front of a packed arena, the only point where the comparison doesn't hold is that there are a lot less travelling fans, but no one even mentioned that point.

 

[Albatros]

Even so adding two more teams adds just two more games with more than a few hundred spectators. To me it makes more sense to organize weekend type regional tournaments between closest rivals additionally.

 

[SoundAndFury]

Even so adding two more teams adds just two more games with more than a few hundred spectators. To me it makes more sense to organize weekend type regional tournaments between closest rivals additionally.

Why are you so focused on the number of spectators, I don't quite get it. IIHF championships aren't attendance-first type of events, never were.

 

[Albatros]

Why are you so focused on the number of spectators, I don't quite get it. IIHF championships aren't attendance-first type of events, never were.

Because I don't see a compelling reason for expanding the tournaments. If the teams want more games there's no reason why they couldn't play their desired opponents anyway, Poland and Hungary have frequent meetings despite not being in the same division. Besides not many of the divisions have been evenly matched even with six teams.

 

[SoundAndFury]

Because I don't see a compelling reason for expanding the tournaments. If the teams want more games there's no reason why they couldn't play their desired opponents anyway, Poland and Hungary have frequent meetings despite not being in the same division. Besides not many of the divisions have been evenly matched even with six teams.

The reason would be to add more games for teams to test themselves instead of it all being decided by last minutes empty-netters, tiebreakers or goalies having bad sleep the night before. Now you end up with situations where relegation/promotion is determined by most minor details. I also don't see why the D1A couldn't be more championship-like. Now it's just a hectic, whimsical competition which is the hockey equivalent of rolling a dice.

Once again, nobody's talking about divisions below, they are fine as it is.

I don't think this suggestion is worth the effort which would go into it but in the perfect world, I think, it would be far better.

 

[member 305909]

In all likelihood though GB will finish at the bottom of this group and would relegate if there was relegation.

Perhaps they will become a permanent elevator-team like Italy has been for years. That also would be progress compared to where they were only few years ago.

 

[Albatros]

The reason would be to add more games for teams to test themselves instead of it all being decided by last minutes empty-netters, tiebreakers or goalies having bad sleep the night before. Now you end up with situations where relegation/promotion is determined by most minor details. I also don't see why the D1A couldn't be more championship-like. Now it's just a hectic, whimsical competition which is the hockey equivalent of rolling a dice.

Once again, nobody's talking about divisions below, they are fine as it is.

I don't think this suggestion is worth the effort which would go into it but in the perfect world, I think, it would be far better.

Wouldn't it be better then to make the existing D1A teams play one another more, four-team promotion and two-team relegation playoffs? D1B was most recently won by Romania which is little more than a Hungarian farm team. Behind them Poland, Japan, Estonia. They are not good enough to challenge in D1A and it's better if they have the opportunity to win games at a lower level.

 

[SoundAndFury]

Wouldn't it be better then to make the existing D1A teams play one another more, four-team promotion and two-team relegation playoffs? D1B was most recently won by Romania which is little more than a Hungarian farm team. Behind them Poland, Japan, Estonia. They are not good enough to challenge in D1A and it's better if they have the opportunity to win games at a lower level.

Sure, playoffs would work as well.

I, however, disagree about your evaluation of those teams. I'm Lithuanian and in recent history we beat GB numerous times, beat South Korea and tied Hungary in points in D1A and that's with 3 key defensemen unable to participate. Maybe you can make a point we are slightly ahead of Estonia or Romania but the gap between those countries and an average D1A one isn't that big. Poland, although being probably the strongest out of listed nations, has beaten D1A teams in friendly tournaments many times. Japan is going to come back to their previous D1A level soon-ish as well.

Furthermore, my original idea was shrinking elite to 14 teams which would have meant the nations you listed would have stayed where they are.

 

[stv11]

The current D1A crowd plus Italy and Britain would be a pretty good tournament, but I don't think putting teams like Denmark or Norway in danger of relegation would be the right move. 16 seems right for the top level right now.

On the other hand, teams like Poland or Japan, who come from countries with decent enough leagues, would benefit from playing 7 games of D1A hockey every year as opposed to Estonia or the Netherlands. Lithuania seems capable of holding their own as well looking at results, although I admit I don't know much about the state of hockey in Lithuania (happy to be educated about it if @SoundAndFury has some time to waste )

 

[Eye of Ra]

I don't think the competition would improve by adding many more countries. It would probably make the big nations care even less.

I know this year are a lot of games where you could argue that the level gap has narrowed and Hungary would probably take points as well. But in normal years (just look at 2019) those teams are still far apart. More B teams would lead to even more lopsided results.

I like that GB is improving and really hope their program keeps producing even stronger teams, but don't agree that GB clearly belongs in the A.

If GB and Italy would be in the B division with France, Hungary, Poland, Slovenia, Austria etc. I would not call them clear favourites.

Even if there was a relegation this year, GB would not be relegeted, Sweden and Italy would. And deserving so, its 2 nations that belongs in the b division.

 

[swissexpert]

Even if there was a relegation this year, GB would not be relegeted, Sweden and Italy would. And deserving so, its 2 nations that belongs in the b division.

Let's see tomorrow if GB is really better than SWE

 

[Pardus]

Seems like Champions Hockey League has really been a good thing for EIHL and GB national team. Competitive games against stronger European leagues' teams has raised the level the of play and better players choose to play in EIHL. Nowadays I see EIHL as good league as Austrian multinational league.

If they invest more money on EIHL, who knows if they reach the level of AHL in 5 - 10 years.

My sister lives in Guildford and cheers for the Flames. Bought also a Guildford Flames cap for me. Hope to see them play next season.

 

[garbageteam]

This was a solidly D1B team a few years ago, gotta say I'm impressed they came to this tournament two years in a row and came to play. Like I think Austria and France are likely to be better but if GB can build on this they should be a solid elevator competitor, like a Kazakhstan or Italy lite, not some far off low tier D1 minnow.

If Poland and Hungary were so great and clearly better than GB then why have they barely sniffed the top division in the past two decades? Someone even mentioned the likes of Lithuania, Romania and Estonia they've never even made the big dance. Korea just had all their stars align that year, their window likely is closing fast (COVID canceling two tourneys doesn't help) to make the top division again and I fear they'll suffer the same future fate as Japan.

 

[SoundAndFury]

lthough I admit I don't know much about the state of hockey in Lithuania (happy to be educated about it if @SoundAndFury has some time to waste )

Not much to tell, it's pretty grim. I think the fastest way to describe it is think of lower-level Slovenia before the creation of the AlpsHL. Just no foundation to become a professional hockey player locally so many best prospects turn amateur after graduating from junior leagues. We also had completely rotten luck with our top players/prospects which is bound to bite us in the ass at men's level pretty soon as well.

Seems like Champions Hockey League has really been a good thing for EIHL and GB national team. Competitive games against stronger European leagues' teams has raised the level the of play and better players choose to play in EIHL. Nowadays I see EIHL as good league as Austrian multinational league.

With all due respect, this is way off in every metric imaginable, including the CHL results.

 

[Albatros]

Sure, playoffs would work as well.

I, however, disagree about your evaluation of those teams. I'm Lithuanian and in recent history we beat GB numerous times, beat South Korea and tied Hungary in points in D1A and that's with 3 key defensemen unable to participate. Maybe you can make a point we are slightly ahead of Estonia or Romania but the gap between those countries and an average D1A one isn't that big. Poland, although being probably the strongest out of listed nations, has beaten D1A teams in friendly tournaments many times. Japan is going to come back to their previous D1A level soon-ish as well.

Furthermore, my original idea was shrinking elite to 14 teams which would have meant the nations you listed would have stayed where they are.

I agree that for Lithuania and a couple of other teams it would be attractive to expand the D1A especially if it was with teams from D1B, as it would solidify their own position. And if the second tier tournament would generally be more attractive also having two "proper" tournaments by shrinking the top division as you suggest would be an option, but as things are I feel it would make most D1A games even less interesting. The playoff format with only the current number of teams would help in that as the home side would be more involved.

Poland has what it takes to be a D1A team again in the near future if they can keep their shit together, unfortunately that hasn't been the case until now with domestic hockey competitions being a disgrace. Japan I don't know, Asia League tried expanding to the hotly contested sports market of Yokohama but with the season cancelled altogether it remains to be seen whether that project can be salvaged. Without domestic growth out of the current backwater presence I don't think the national team can improve significantly either. Of course if we reach a situation in which more national teams are competitive at a higher level then structural changes make more sense.

 

[SoundAndFury]

I agree that for Lithuania and a couple of other teams it would be attractive to expand the D1A especially if it was with teams from D1B, as it would solidify their own position. And if the second tier tournament would generally be more attractive also having two "proper" tournaments by shrinking the top division as you suggest would be an option, but as things are I feel it would make most D1A games even less interesting. The playoff format with only the current number of teams would help in that as the home side would be more involved.

Poland has what it takes to be a D1A team again in the near future if they can keep their shit together, unfortunately that hasn't been the case until now with domestic hockey competitions being a disgrace. Japan I don't know, Asia League tried expanding to the hotly contested sports market of Yokohama but with the season cancelled altogether it remains to be seen whether that project can be salvaged. Without domestic growth out of the current backwater presence I don't think the national team can improve significantly either. Of course if we reach a situation in which more national teams are competitive at a higher level then structural changes make more sense.

Just for the record, I think Lithuania is pretty irrelevant to this discussion, we are going to have our hands full just trying to remain in the upper part of D1B as Japan, Romania, Ukraine and even Estonia have all improved significantly in recent years while we are kinda standing still.

Local growth is important but what we've seen in Japan so far are just short-term setbacks. While they have a handful of prospects getting ready to carry their team for the next 15 years no matter how good or bad local hockey is going to be.