Salary Cap: Garbage Day collection comes early!

[Andy99]

I know that's how your brain works - at least how it's portrayed here - but recent examples and what others do do not always represent absolute outcomes.

This is a tertiary debate to the core of what we're discussing here. Why is NONE of it being done? Why the slow rollout one way or the other? Is there a specific reason we're waiting for Sid/Geno to be 40 to trade assets that have dwindled in value?

Why is Petts going to be re-upped? Why Karlsson not shopped at 50%? Why Eller will play for the team going forward? Why is any of this ridiculous to a club that sucks? New York is shopping Trouba after a President's trophy. Tampa has shaken their roster every single year for 10 straight years, Florida has retooled several times, Vegas needs no explanation... But, heaven forbid the Penguins make more than one move because that's the thing of video games and is ridiculous? f*** this roster, it's hot trash and has gone / going nowhere. What's the attachment to a single piece of it?

Absolutely right…

 

[Empoleon8771]

I know that's how your brain works - at least how it's portrayed here - but recent examples and what others do do not always represent absolute outcomes.

This is a tertiary debate to the core of what we're discussing here. Why is NONE of it being done? Why the slow rollout one way or the other? Is there a specific reason we're waiting for Sid/Geno to be 40 to trade assets that have dwindled in value?

Why is Petts going to be re-upped? Why Karlsson not shopped at 50%? Why Eller will play for the team going forward? Why is any of this ridiculous to a club that sucks? New York is shopping Trouba after a President's trophy. Tampa has shaken their roster every single year for 10 straight years, Florida has retooled several times, Vegas needs no explanation... But, heaven forbid the Penguins make more than one move because that's the thing of video games and is ridiculous? f*** this roster, it's hot trash and has gone / going nowhere. What's the attachment to a single piece of it?

NHL rebuilds are gradual, that's how every team operates. Guys like Smith, Eller, Pettersson, Karlsson and such should absolutely be traded. But no team nukes a roster entirely at once and just gets rid of them all at once. That just doesn't happen at all.

This year (as on 2024-2025), I'm expecting Smith, Eller and Pettersson to be sold off. Next year, I'm expecting Bunting, Malkin (if he wants to be traded) and Hayes (if he has any value) to get traded. After that point, the roster is going to be nuked into orbit. That's the general pacing for what an actual rebuild looks like. The idea that any team is going to trade out multiple of its best players the second it commits to a rebuild is just not how any NHL team operates.

Your rebuild only took 2-3 years they traded every single one of the good players. How can you say they are doing a rebuild when they’re keeping four of the best players, and all of the other supporting roles who are all veterans that is not what a rebuild consists of look at what the sharks have done they have over 30 pics over the next three drafts that’s a rebuild fish

Because a "rebuild" isn't "trading every one of their good players the second they decide to rebuild".

You bring up the Sharks example as if I didn't explicitly say they didn't sell off all of their pieces at once as well:

The only way it's "bipolar" is because people don't actually know what rebuilds look like, because it's been 23 years since the Penguins last started a rebuild.

The Sharks have had one of the more sell-offs in recent memory and they're still only averaging about 2 significant players sold off per year:

-Burns trade: July 2022
-Meier trade: February 2023
-Karlsson trade: August 2023
-Hertl trade: March 2024

Granted they don't have a ton more worth trading, but they still have Couture and Ferraro as notable pieces yet to sell off.

 

[Gurglesons]

>f*** this roster its hot trash
>what why the f*** does nobody want my hot trash?

There's no way in hell teams wouldn't call about EK65 if you offer him at 50%.

Marcus Pettersson you can return for picks.

 

[molon labe]

Dubas’ plan is fine, the execution sucks…no one is saying he has to strip it to the studs but he hasn’t traded one vet yet, except Jake at the deadline because he wanted to go to market…if the plan is to get young hungry players around the core, where are we? I don’t blame him if no one wants Jarry or Smith, but he absolutely needs to trade Petts and ask Rust to waive if there are markets for them….no one but the core should be unmoveable

D have never been a hotter commodity.

Petts with a year (should have traded last year with 2, digress..) at 4M and only 28 for a currently contending club goes out with asset(s) coming back. If we take back some other dud who makes 4M we can probably rake the team over the coals.

Karlsson at 5M (50%) should get us a 1st ++. Why hasn't that happened yet?

Maybe Jarry/Graves/Rakell/Smith can't move because their contracts are complete 'eh' - but that doesn't mean nobody else on the team can go. And to your point - you can't trade them all at once (unfortunately) so why hasn't there been any sort of gradual process to trim down?

>f*** this roster its hot trash
>what why the f*** does nobody want my hot trash?

Team* If that helps you.

The rest has already been stated. Plenty of our guys would garnish interest if they were shopped. Instead we continue to focus on the next bottom 6 signing.

 

[Empoleon8771]

D have never been a hotter commodity.

Petts with a year (should have traded last year with 2, digress..) at 4M and only 28 for a currently contending club goes out with asset(s) coming back. If we take back some other dud who makes 4M we can probably rake the team over the coals.

Karlsson at 5M (50%) should get us a 1st ++. Why hasn't that happened yet?

Maybe Jarry/Graves/Rakell/Smith can't move because their contracts are complete 'eh' - but that doesn't mean nobody else on the team can go. And to your point - you can't trade them all at once (unfortunately) so why hasn't there been any sort of gradual process to trim down?

Because you have 3 years left on Karlsson's deal, so there's no reason to trade him right now unless you're getting a top return to do it.

You're not suggesting a gradual process to trim down, you're talking about immediately making major moves at a rate that no NHL team makes major moves at. Even San Jose took 2 years to trade all of Burns, Meier, Hertl and Karlsson.

 

[Turin]

D have never been a hotter commodity.

Petts with a year (should have traded last year with 2, digress..) at 4M and only 28 for a currently contending club goes out with asset(s) coming back. If we take back some other dud who makes 4M we can probably rake the team over the coals.

Karlsson at 5M (50%) should get us a 1st ++. Why hasn't that happened yet?

Maybe Jarry/Graves/Rakell/Smith can't move because their contracts are complete 'eh' - but that doesn't mean nobody else on the team can go. And to your point - you can't trade them all at once (unfortunately) so why hasn't there been any sort of gradual process to trim down?

You trade Pettersson and Karlsson, you are tanking. The Pens aren't tanking. They aren't trying to miss the playoffs, they just aren't trying to spend assets to ensure they win, either. The main goal is to accumulate assets because they have none, and the roster is a bunch of mid inconsistent players with NTC/NMCs.

 

[Gurglesons]

NHL rebuilds are gradual, that's how every team operates. Guys like Smith, Eller, Pettersson, Karlsson and such should absolutely be traded. But no team nukes a roster entirely at once and just gets rid of them all at once. That just doesn't happen at all.

This year (as on 2024-2025), I'm expecting Smith, Eller and Pettersson to be sold off. Next year, I'm expecting Bunting, Malkin (if he wants to be traded) and Hayes (if he has any value) to get traded. After that point, the roster is going to be nuked into orbit. That's the general pacing for what an actual rebuild looks like.



Because a "rebuild" isn't "trading every one of their good players the second they decide to rebuild".

You bring up the Sharks example as if I didn't explicitly say they didn't sell off all of their pieces at once as well:

Sharks traded Marleau, Goodrow, and Dillon all prior to Burns.

I think the annoyance is the team seems to be saying one thing, but their actions say the other.

 

[Malkinstheman]

Rebuilding or not you still need NHL calibre player playing for your team lol. Some of you need to relax. No team has ever just sold off every valuable asset in one off-season

 

[Empoleon8771]

Rebuilding or not you still need NHL calibre player playing for your team lol. Some of you need to relax. No team has ever just sold off every valuable asset in one off-season

Exactly, that's what I'm trying to show with the Sharks and Hawks comparison. Both of those teams averaged like 1 major player per off-season and 1 major player at the deadline sold off per year. I think that's a totally reasonable rate that the Penguins should be targeting.

 

[molon labe]

NHL rebuilds are gradual, that's how every team operates. Guys like Smith, Eller, Pettersson, Karlsson and such should absolutely be traded. But no team nukes a roster entirely at once and just gets rid of them all at once. That just doesn't happen at all.

This year (as on 2024-2025), I'm expecting Smith, Eller and Pettersson to be sold off. Next year, I'm expecting Bunting, Malkin (if he wants to be traded) and Hayes (if he has any value) to get traded. After that point, the roster is going to be nuked into orbit. That's the general pacing for what an actual rebuild looks like. The idea that any team is going to trade out multiple of its best players the second it commits to a rebuild is just not how any NHL team operates.



Because a "rebuild" isn't "trading every one of their good players the second they decide to rebuild".

You bring up the Sharks example as if I didn't explicitly say they didn't sell off all of their pieces at once as well:

So Hayes is the only guy out there we could have taken on as a dump? Rhetorical looking at recent buyouts.

We took him because Sullivan and his twin love him and want him in the bottom 6.

The guys you're stating be sold off - consider me shocked if that happens. Especially in Petts case - I bet that dude is extended by puck drop this year.

The problem here that a few of us have is that - there's nothing gradual here at all. It's completely idle. There's no ball rolling in one direction. What we're reading and looking at is a team that sucks - that didn't make any headway at the draft when they should have. They didn't move the needle whatsoever last season until a Jake trade was forced upon them. We KNOW that you can't trade them all at once - that's why with each passing season / month / week / day, when ZERO trades happen, the frustration mounts. They're not doing anything of value here one way or the other and are sticking (stick to it iv-ness) with a team that's complete loser.

 

[66-30-33]

Karlsson at 5M is much easier to trade over 11.5.
Petts at 2M would be great.

 

[mrd1166]

20 goal potential, forechecking menace, been injured since he got to Tampa.

It’s a lot for him at this point, but he fits LA’s typical love in a 3rd / 4th liner

That's just tanking, which is a good idea a lot of the time, but a lot of the time it's also going to get you stuck in the basement and make you waste prime years of your picks like Buffalo, who has rebuilt 3 times without making the playoffs once, or Detroit and Ottawa.

Yes we are not rebuilding we’re just

Skinner could be a cheap prove it type deal. Could have a nice season beside Sid.

I’d rather see a younger player with some speed an grit to defend his captain instead of the 36 year old captain who has to be the tuff guy

 

[Empoleon8771]

So Hayes is the only guy out there we could have taken on as a dump? Rhetorical looking at recent buyouts.

We took him because Sullivan and his twin love him and want him in the bottom 6.

The guys you're stating be sold off - consider me shocked if that happens. Especially in Petts case - I bet that dude is extended by puck drop this year.

And if they would have taken on more, the same people would be complaining about "the Penguins are bringing on a bunch of bad players to block out opportunities for their young players".

The problem here that a few of us have is that - there's nothing gradual here at all. It's completely idle. There's no ball rolling in one direction. What we're reading and looking at is a team that sucks - that didn't make any headway at the draft when they should have. They didn't move the needle whatsoever last season until a Jake trade was forced upon them. We KNOW that you can't trade them all at once - that's why with each passing season / month / week / day, when ZERO trades happen, the frustration mounts. They're not doing anything of value here one way or the other and are sticking (stick to it iv-ness) with a team that's complete loser.

That's because you're entirely impatient. Literally no NHL team operates at the pace you're suggesting. Teams don't blow up instantly when they start a rebuild. It flat out doesn't happen.

 

[Turin]

Rebuilding or not you still need NHL calibre player playing for your team lol. Some of you need to relax. No team has ever just sold off every valuable asset in one off-season

They also aren't trying to be bad. They're just trying to get futures, and if they're bad in the process, oh well. More futures.

 

[molon labe]

Because you have 3 years left on Karlsson's deal, so there's no reason to trade him right now unless you're getting a top return to do it.

You're not suggesting a gradual process to trim down, you're talking about immediately making major moves at a rate that no NHL team makes major moves at. Even San Jose took 2 years to trade all of Burns, Meier, Hertl and Karlsson.

Again, things don't have to have happened with other clubs in order for them to happen to our club.

But even humoring that logic - why would you sit on Karlsson? I'd argue that 3 seasons left would be best there as the gaining team would value 3 years at 5M most - since that club is very likely a contender.

I'd wager that 3 years of EK at 5M gets 1st ++, two years maybe similar, and 1 year probably just the first. But either way you're sitting on an asset that can get injured or regress at any time - and for no other reason (since you're clearly not competing) than .... other teams wouldn't do it?

 

[lettuceAA]

Again, go look at what actual NHL teams do when they start "rebuilds". The idea that any team immediately blows it up and trades everyone is nothing but a fantasy. It's just a bunch of NHL 24 GM thinking.

There are literally zero examples (at least in recent memory) of a team initiating a rebuild tearing it down entirely immediately after starting the rebuild. It doesn't happen, and judging Dubas based on that fantasy scenario is absolutely ridiculous.

Conroy has traded every UFA that had value so far.


Conroy was hired on May 23, 2023, and it took him just shy of 13 months to make 10 trades.
June 27, 2023: traded Tyler Toffoli to New Jersey for Yegor Sharangovich and 2023 third-round pick
Nov. 30, 2023: traded Nikita Zadorov to Vancouver for 2026 third-round pick and 2024 fifth-round pick
Jan. 31, 2024: traded Elias Lindholm to Vancouver for Andrei Kuzmenko, Hunter Brzustewicz, Joni Jurmo, 2024 first-round pick and 2024 fourth-round pick
Feb. 28, 2024: traded Chris Tanev (50% salary retained) to New Jersey for Cole Brady
Feb. 28, 2024: traded Brady to Dallas for Artem Grushnikov, 2024 second-round pick and conditional 2026 third-round pick (not exercised)
Mar. 6, 2024: traded Noah Hanifin (50% salary retained) to Philadelphia for Mikhail Vorobyov
Mar. 6, 2024: traded Vorobyov to Vegas for Daniil Miromanov, 2026 first-round pick and 2024 third-round pick
Mar. 7, 2024: traded Emilio Pettersen to Dallas for Riley Damiani
Mar. 8, 2024: traded 2024 fifth-round pick to San Jose for Nikita Okhotiuk
June 19, 2024: traded Jacob Markstrom (31.25% salary retained) to New Jersey for Kevin Bahl and 2025 first-round pick

 

[molon labe]

And if they would have taken on more, the same people would be complaining about "the Penguins are bringing on a bunch of bad players to block out opportunities for their young players".



That's because you're entirely impatient. Literally no NHL team operates at the pace you're suggesting. Teams don't blow up instantly when they start a rebuild. It flat out doesn't happen.

You're utterly making up the fact that I'm blowing up the entire team. Would I trade every single one in a day if I could? Yes. But you're completely ignoring the fact that all of us have been patient enough. This trajectory isn't new. This club has looked this way for several years now - and all we've done is replace players with similar players.

EK's case notwithstanding.

But trying to completely gaslight a damn argument about the pace of my rebuild/retool/rewhatever in a defense of doing NOTHING is ridiculous in it's own right.

 

[PensPlz]

Seriously head scratching stuff by this organization. The absolute bipolar identity continues.

Why keep Malkin and Letang prior to Dubas? Why bring in Dubas at all? Why sign Jarry/Graves to deals? Why Eller if not to be flipped for draft picks? Why trade Guentzel for a roster player instead of strictly draft picks?

The consensus by everyone including some of our genius media talking heads is a balance of win now and stock the cupboard - but outside of Karlsson and later Bunting - all the other moves are not 'win now' pieces at all. I get that Sullivan is hot trash at player evaluation but I mean - the contracts and targets we've had make zero sense.

Sell, or buy. Where in the hell does Hayes fit in? If we were straight tanking, sure. But the in between stuff? Taking on 2 years of him in the final hour of Sid/Geno is sort of disrespectful IF the goal is to win with those two. If it's not (how can anyone think it is with the marriage to Sullivan) - then why keep them? The best Sid is the Sid in pursuit of victory. Why even offer an extension? This team hasn't made sense in years. Strange addiction to keep I guess.

I like the saying "a camel horse designed by committee".

Since 2020, this team has been a camel....

 

[Empoleon8771]

Conroy has traded every UFA that had value so far.


Conroy was hired on May 23, 2023, and it took him just shy of 13 months to make 10 trades.
June 27, 2023: traded Tyler Toffoli to New Jersey for Yegor Sharangovich and 2023 third-round pick
Nov. 30, 2023: traded Nikita Zadorov to Vancouver for 2026 third-round pick and 2024 fifth-round pick
Jan. 31, 2024: traded Elias Lindholm to Vancouver for Andrei Kuzmenko, Hunter Brzustewicz, Joni Jurmo, 2024 first-round pick and 2024 fourth-round pick
Feb. 28, 2024: traded Chris Tanev (50% salary retained) to New Jersey for Cole Brady
Feb. 28, 2024: traded Brady to Dallas for Artem Grushnikov, 2024 second-round pick and conditional 2026 third-round pick (not exercised)
Mar. 6, 2024: traded Noah Hanifin (50% salary retained) to Philadelphia for Mikhail Vorobyov
Mar. 6, 2024: traded Vorobyov to Vegas for Daniil Miromanov, 2026 first-round pick and 2024 third-round pick
Mar. 7, 2024: traded Emilio Pettersen to Dallas for Riley Damiani
Mar. 8, 2024: traded 2024 fifth-round pick to San Jose for Nikita Okhotiuk
June 19, 2024: traded Jacob Markstrom (31.25% salary retained) to New Jersey for Kevin Bahl and 2025 first-round pick

Yes, he traded away every UFA that had value. Now name the UFAs the Penguins have had that they didn't trade for value.

They absolutely should be trading every UFA for futures when they get to that point. But trading Karlsson or Rust with 3 years left isn't "trading a UFA for futures".

 

[Factorial]

He’s openly said he wants to go back out west FACT

Source? Meaning a public statement.

 

[Empoleon8771]

You're utterly making up the fact that I'm blowing up the entire team. Would I trade every single one in a day if I could? Yes. But you're completely ignoring the fact that all of us have been patient enough. This trajectory isn't new. This club has looked this way for several years now - and all we've done is replace players with similar players.

EK's case notwithstanding.

But trying to completely gaslight a damn argument about the pace of my rebuild/retool/rewhatever in a defense of doing NOTHING is ridiculous in it's own right.

The team literally just started the rebuild with the Guentzel trade.

 

[Ryder71]

If I am part of the core I wanna keep winning but that's me.

If Sid and Geno while not missing any time over the last couple of years couldn't make the playoffs while being younger, what do you think the chances are this time around as they age out?

 

[mrd1166]

D have never been a hotter commodity.

Petts with a year (should have traded last year with 2, digress..) at 4M and only 28 for a currently contending club goes out with asset(s) coming back. If we take back some other dud who makes 4M we can probably rake the team over the coals.

Karlsson at 5M (50%) should get us a 1st ++. Why hasn't that happened yet?

Maybe Jarry/Graves/Rakell/Smith can't move because their contracts are complete 'eh' - but that doesn't mean nobody else on the team can go. And to your point - you can't trade them all at once (unfortunately) so why hasn't there been any sort of gradual process to trim down?



Team* If that helps you.

The rest has already been stated. Plenty of our guys would garnish interest if they were shopped. Instead we continue to focus on the next bottom 6 signing

You're utterly making up the fact that I'm blowing up the entire team. Would I trade every single one in a day if I could? Yes. But you're completely ignoring the fact that all of us have been patient enough. This trajectory isn't new. This club has looked this way for several years now - and all we've done is replace players with similar players.

EK's case notwithstanding.

But trying to completely gaslight a damn argument about the pace of my rebuild/retool/rewhatever in a defense of doing NOTHING is ridiculous in it's own right.

This guy just likes to act like he knows what he is talking about lol I’m pretty sure every single person disagrees with him so that tells you a lot about this guy and his rebuilding tactics must be related to Mike Sullivan lol

 

[66-30-33]

If Sid and Geno while not missing any time over the last couple of years couldn't make the playoffs while being younger, what do you think the chances are this time around as they age out?

Here? Probably 10% but it's sinking as time goes on by without making any changes. They did go on a run during the final stretch.

 

[Ryder71]

I hope the core asks out at this point.

Nothing regarding this team would make me happier because truthfully this ''show'' of dual agendas will take longer as far as the rebuild goes. If we could sell off Sid we'd get a minimum of two 1st rounders and very likely a quality young NHLer. OR the equivalent. Particularly if we retained a bit. I want him gone so bad. The assets would really help kick the rebuild into high gear.