My problem with late game Rutherford all the way to Dubas is the total lack of identity, not only within a team, but from line to line and player to player.
I get this notion by some but I also have to add - The GM will make moves he feels his team needs but 99% of the time, he's made moves to help his coach create the identity he wants.
So since 2018, what has the identity become of the Penguins? They completely steered away from how they used the bottom 6, Sullivan essentially deploys them like two 4th line checking lines, their deployment and usage suggests that but he will talk about it like something else. The team plays a system that isn't quick at all, they're a mess all over the ice, which slows players down because they're not playing a quick transition game like they were in the 2 cups, there's nothing quick about how they leave their zone.
They also don't use much youth and the minutes to the bottom 6 is not consistent at all, so what are you using the bottom 6 for? In Bylsma's system, he used the 4th line to grind and forecheck hard, then the Staal line would come out and do it at a higher level and generate offense with Kennedy and Cooke, then you'd have Sid & Geno's line come in as layered attacks.
What is Sullivan's identity on this team? Using Mass area wankers he likes? Giving more veterans a chance than youth that inject some life into this team when used? The team has had 3 GM's under this coach and each time the version of this team stays the same, which tells you the team does have an identity, we just don't like it and want to accept it as being what it is right now.
Another poster brought up the Reaves trade. At the time, I made a big fuss of it on other boards because I saw how significant that was. It was Rutherford losing the plot of what made the team special.
I think this one is highly unfair. JR had Crosby come up and kind of request or suggest adding someone like Reaves and that wasn't wrong really. What was, is how Sullivan chased out Reaves and then later that season in 2017-18 when we needed Reaves, we saw ZAR get obliterated by Wilson and Oleksiak had to step in to fight him and was KTFO by Wilson. To me that was a bigger issue than anything, JR got Reaves because Sid talked about how players like that are necessary and the team hadn't had one for a long time, Sullivan pouted with his usage and basically punished Reaves for playing physical.
But a star asking for an enforcer? Fine, that's fine, normal even. Mario wanted McSorely, etc, so did Wayne, absolutely normal really.
What wasn't normal? To reiterate, how Reaves was used and how the coach basically pouted about having to use him. Reaves was perfectly fine in limited 4th line usage, if he was used like that often, but he wasn't. It was almost like the more Reaves played physical, the more the coach hated it and that was bizarre to a lot of us at the time, to the point where we now joke about how if a player plays too physical, they won't be in the line-up anymore. Sullivan has struggled with reigning in players like that, Lafferty was a bit of a loose cannon with his physical play, but he was reigned in for other teams and has carved out a solid 4th line career in the NHL since. But the issue was less Reaves and more so how he was used. The way he was used made it seem a lot worse imo.
I think what JR gave up for him was definitely a lot, but this was also a player that apparently Crosby name dropped and he was the best enforcer in the league at the time, he's 37 now and players like him don't even last past age 30 most of the time, so that's more or less a different issue of what Reaves is now which may cloud everyone's judgement. But he was still an effective energy player on the 4th line that could chip in until his Wild tenure at around 34-35.
Just to add some actual back up info:
Pittsburgh Penguins captain Sidney Crosby is appreciative of general manager Jim Rutherford’s decision to acquire rugged Ryan Reaves to provide on-ice protection for him and his teammates.
“Early on, I was used to having a guy on your team like that,” Crosby said. “Every team had a tough guy. I grew up used to that. But for a period of time, it hasn’t been the case.”
The Penguins paid a steep price at the draft for Ryan Reaves, who will protect their star players.
www.usatoday.com
It just was dumb, they got Reaves for a reason, Crosby wanted someone like that, the coach then pouts about the idea of Reaves on this team and that his "system and style" didn't require the need for Reaves, up until why Sid and Co wanted Reaves, reared its ugly head vs the Caps in the 2nd round, Wilson ran around knowing there was no one on the team that could do jack shit to him.
Without getting into the Xs and Os, it was youthful legs, playing the game fast (in execution moreso than feet), and scoring on all four lines.
I have to ask myself now what is this team trying to accomplish?
It's almost as if anyone that shows their youthful energy on this team, are seemingly punished with less minutes and then replaced with a veteran. Last season for example, Harkins was terrible but when Gruden played you could see that 4th line get a boost just from his energy and the fact that Vellucci himself trusted Gruden enough to throw him on the PK as a rookie.
How many solid young players do we see barely get a chance? Hallander left, Puustinen hasn't played in 5 games so far, etc etc, but we'll get Beauvillier, Lizotte, etc and give them all the chances in the world. That's a massive problem with this team and that's not on the GM, it's the coach that decides who he wants to use and really, these are players that both of them sat down and agreed upon. This team should be better, but it's coached to be this way for some reason that only the coach knows for why.
They seem to have acquired a few guys to enable a behind the net approach to offense, which I think is something they seem to be focusing on even more now than in years past. As is the case with most Sullivan teams, that seems to have caused them to get burned more on odd man rushes than ever before. I haven't done a deep dive on it, but 2018-now, a lot of the odd mans came from awkwardly stupid pinches by the D moreso than a the third forward getting caught too deep. Now, it seems like the deep forward is the main culprit. Maybe it's a bit of both.
Yeah I noticed that a lot as well, the issue is also that the D rushes up kind of late and then pinches, which by then is tough to come back and defend so the other team quickly transitions the other way and the Penguins are caught deep or coming into support too late and can't sustain pressure at all. That and the forwards look more clueless for where they should be in their own end. I think a big telltale sign is Rust and Crosby don't look all that sure of themselves in their own end and end up chasing the puck a lot in their own zone more than creating offense.
The odd man rushes, break downs in the defensive zone, etc - That's been going on for a while, it's just progressively getting worse if anything. The team has overhauled the defense so much since 2018 as well and I'm not sure why it needed to so often, the coach seemed to never be happy with anyone they got and the list is quite long at this point of how much the Penguins have overhauled the defense. Teams with worse players do better, that's not good.
Dubas had a goal of "youth" at the end of last year. Naturally, we see Acciari and Hayes getting fourth line minutes. Beauvillier is in his 30s and on the top line. What exactly is the team identity past "the 35+ year old players need to carry us every night."
Yeah that was bizarre to me but I don't know, Dubas getting these veterans that Sullivan seemingly adores and talks up kind of answers it for me and I hate having to keep mention that twat coach, but it is what it is at this point. This is his team and the GM's get players he wants, the few Dubas definitely wanted are pretty obvious - Ex Leafs, which all but 1 are in the AHL, Bunting.
But to healthy scratch Puljujarvi for no reason, Puustinen getting zero games, Beauvillier still used in the top 6 when he's been pretty below average and a younger player would have been healthy scratched by now, it's just frustrating to see this sort of thing where veterans get this insanely long rope.
Hayes has actually been decent on the 4th line and so has Acciari, so I can't really criticize them, but the minutes Glass gets? That I can. He's a young player that's actually being used along with DOC, but Glass' minutes are awful. He should get more minutes on the PK and used more at 5v5 but he barely plays 10mins some nights.
Vs the Habs - 9:51 TOI/G
and recently vs the Sabres - 8:18 TOI/G
I was vocal about not liking Glass as a RW, but as a C he's been good, but his minutes being cut that much for no reason is on brand Sullivan, its frustrating. Meanwhile Beauvillier does flashy shit that results in nothing and gets 13+ a night.
I guess Bunting and McGroarty leans a bit more into net front/behind the net type chaos? I realize Hayes and Glass were just ways to acquire assets, but why those guys in particular?
What was the goal of Ryan Graves? What do the Penguins expect of their defensemen now?
Like what's going on, really?
It's the same overload nonsense they've been getting burned on for years. It's the same awful power play setup that it was last year. I suppose they're just hoping they get different results?
Yeah I have nothing to add to this that hasn't been stated already, its just the same shit over and over again with this team. Dubas adding Graves, I don't know how much of that at this point was Dubas thinking that was a good idea vs coming into a new team and being told hey we're keen on this bloke and so he gets him.
Because I don't think Dubas was on the team long enough to pick these names out as main targets.
June 1st, Penguins hire Kyle Dubas and then July 1st they sign Ryan Graves. That one felt like internally they had a list and he came on and just kind of went through it and was like ok yeah sure, lets get him if you guys want him, etc. Not dissimilar to Jack Johnson's ask by the coach.
I only care about the truth, no matter who it supports.
Since people here shamelessly lie, rewrite history or brainwash themselves constantly with Jarry, that creates the conflict.
I agree he should be waived and traded. Never claimed otherwise. But my focus is on unburdening the team's cap for now and in the future. He's unlikely to play up to his cap hit and he might become increasingly untradeable. His mental state and body language are very negative this year. And now the crowd is ridiculing him too, which will probably hurt his ability to recover mentally.
This is a good time for waivers, when GMs will overreact to bad starts and make bad long-term decisions. It's possible we can unload that entire contract at no penalty, or at least make a good trade.
Yeah, I agree 100% with this.
Ned being on a conditioning assignment, I would just demote Jarry the moment Ned is back from that and just quietly let him do his thing in WBS, if he improves, great, if not, that's fine he can stay there and be a compliance buyout in the off season, but there's literally no other solution that this team should look into that doesn't involve giving up multiple picks.
