GDT: Game 71: Red Wings at avs 9:00 pm et 3/25/25

Last 15 games
Seider 5 points -7
Raymond 9 points -10
Larkin 10 points -8
where the hell are the :( and the :oops: smilies?

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Do we have any forwards that are actually good at defense? Our group is ok at neutral zone d, but the minute they get in their zone its like they forget who to cover. Half our forwards are super small and easily beaten around the boards, the others seem to have zero defensive IQ. Like I'd kill for a prime Backhand Luke right now.

The only chance we are going to have is to activate our defense offensively to actually generate some 5 on 5 offense, and hope we can keep the puck in the other teams zone. We simply don't have the personnel yet to be a shutdown team or let teams take it to us. We'll definitely give up some odd man rushes, but honestly that might be better, because us getting stuck in our zone for 5 minutes is exhausting hockey. At least if we give up a goal on an odd man we aren't expending as much energy defensively.

I feel like Todd and Trent are going to have to completely break down this team defensively at camp. Guys like Larkin, Ray, Kasper, Motte, Compher shouldn't look lost defensively in their zone. They have a high enough hockey IQ to be able to play a decent defensive system. We also need to clear out some of the one way players. Kane, Tank, DBC, Berg just cannot play D. Only one of Berg/Kane should be back. DBC at least tries and I think if paired with better defensive players would not be a sieve. Tank should just be gone.
 
Is it time to pick a team to root for playoff wise?
Yup...As I posted in another thread it's about that time (9th season now) where we begin to look forward to the draft lottery and curmudgeonly scan the standings for a bandwagon team to hop on (if that's your thing)...I'm thinking Winnipeg - it's sorta like Milwaukee - cold, drab, people don't wanna be there (for the most part) and yet we exist.
 
I'm not in love with the strategy of having a forward guard the crease. Last few games you can see defensemen go and chase people as high as the the top of the circles leaving forwards to take care of the crease.
 
I think he's a solid 'C' and everything else you had posted - just not a high-end player who can carry the team on his shoulders.

He’s top 15 in the league at his position but isn’t great defensively. It’s not for lack of trying but he’s average at best. I just don’t think Larkin has ever had a good enough coach to teach him the finer points of defensive center play. Two seasons with Zetterberg wasn’t enough.

Call me crazy but I can see a vet like Toews, diminished as he is, being great for our kids. Or someone like ROR. Our kids need good teachers.
 
This sucks but I guess I shouldn't be surprised.

The Wings were a bubble playoff team at best, burned half the season under a bad coach, have the toughest remaining schedule of the league, and say what you will about these guys but are without Copp, Petry, Gustaffson and whichever goalie got injured this week.

That means guys like Lagesson are playing 12+ minutes a night, and Holl playing nearly 20 minutes a night. They're without their second best faceoff man and defensive forward. And no goalie can get into a rhythm as starter.

When I look at all that, it's kinda funny I thought there was still hope for the playoffs.

For next season I would love for Tarasenko, Rasmussen, and Holl to get the trebuchet treatment.
 
The idea of building around Seider, Larkin, Raymond gets sillier and sillier every game. We aren’t even close with these guys. Couldn’t even get them to respectability. This is why every FA/trade is a failure. Trying to shoe horn these guys as core pieces and fit around them

I hope I'm just being negative, but in watching this team I'm starting to get "Leafs building around Kessel and Phaneuf" vibes... albeit without Brian Burke's "truculence"
 
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The idea of building around Seider, Larkin, Raymond gets sillier and sillier every game. We aren’t even close with these guys. Couldn’t even get them to respectability. This is why every FA/trade is a failure. Trying to shoe horn these guys as core pieces and fit around them
I agree. They're simply not consistent enough in production and leadership. They can't all disappear at the most crucial step like this. Obviously the depth is woeful but you need your best players to do better.
 
The idea of building around Seider, Larkin, Raymond gets sillier and sillier every game. We aren’t even close with these guys. Couldn’t even get them to respectability. This is why every FA/trade is a failure. Trying to shoe horn these guys as core pieces and fit around them
Count me firmly in the camp that believes in these guys. They carried the team for most of the year, and no one can be good every night.

These UFA/trade additions failed because they're bad players.

I could have predicted the majority of our trade/UFA acquisition failures (and did on here if you want to go digging). Chiarot plays poorly and the top pairing fails with him on it because he's bad at playing hockey. He always has been. Bad players play poorly. It's just what they do. There's never been any reason to believe that he belongs on anything other than a third pairing or in the AHL. I think the day we signed him I said I'd be willing to pay a first to get the contract off the books. It was a mistake that day. No one should have believed signing him was a good idea and I've been screaming "fire our pro scouts" ever since because of him. Seider could be the fusion of Bobby Orr and Nick Lidstrom and that pairing would struggle. Not only is Chiarot terrible, he's the worst kind of selfish. Some players know how to defer to a better linemate and manage to elevate their game to match their partners. Chiarot refuses to adapt to his partner and so forces them to play down to his level. When Seider had a functional partner in Edvinsson, they were one of the best pairings in the league.

Petry was destined to fail. Holl was destined to fail. Gustafsson, there was at least the "who even is this guy" uncertainty to make his inevitable failure appear uncertain. Compher had half of a successful season as a second line center on one of the best teams in recent memory when we signed him for that role on a not particularly good team. Copp was always a defensive 3C. Our UFA/trade acquisitions haven't been brought down by the core. They've all been what everyone should have known they'd be.

That's why it's always so doom and gloom around here at every deadline/free agency day. We all watch the team make decisions that we know are bad. We try to optimistically talk ourselves into believing in the team, but we all knew that this team wasn't going to make the playoffs. The top 6 forwards are clearly too small and one-note. The bottom 6 forwards have to be one of the worst groups in the league. Seider and Edvinsson are our only top 4 defenseman. AlJo has performed admirably. That means half of our defense is dysfunctional. The goalies have been what goalies are, hot and cold, mostly fine on average. You can't win when half of your team is terrible. The core would be fine with a supporting cast that's just a little below average rather than terrible.

Tarasenko is pretty much the only recent addition that I am surprised by. I thought he'd be a decent secondary scorer instead of one of the worst players I've ever seen.
 
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The idea of building around Seider, Larkin, Raymond gets sillier and sillier every game. We aren’t even close with these guys. Couldn’t even get them to respectability. This is why every FA/trade is a failure. Trying to shoe horn these guys as core pieces and fit around them
I can see moving on from Larkin (I know you hate him). I cannot see moving on from Seider or Raymond at this point.

I say this as a former Avalanche season ticket holder during some really ugly years: people forget how awful they were and how long it took them to get competitive. If you want to rebuild the rebuild and sell all three of these guys, don't expect any playoff hockey for another seven or eight years, regardless of who is at the helm.
 
Do we have any forwards that are actually good at defense? Our group is ok at neutral zone d, but the minute they get in their zone its like they forget who to cover. Half our forwards are super small and easily beaten around the boards, the others seem to have zero defensive IQ. Like I'd kill for a prime Backhand Luke right now.

The only chance we are going to have is to activate our defense offensively to actually generate some 5 on 5 offense, and hope we can keep the puck in the other teams zone. We simply don't have the personnel yet to be a shutdown team or let teams take it to us. We'll definitely give up some odd man rushes, but honestly that might be better, because us getting stuck in our zone for 5 minutes is exhausting hockey. At least if we give up a goal on an odd man we aren't expending as much energy defensively.

I feel like Todd and Trent are going to have to completely break down this team defensively at camp. Guys like Larkin, Ray, Kasper, Motte, Compher shouldn't look lost defensively in their zone. They have a high enough hockey IQ to be able to play a decent defensive system. We also need to clear out some of the one way players. Kane, Tank, DBC, Berg just cannot play D. Only one of Berg/Kane should be back. DBC at least tries and I think if paired with better defensive players would not be a sieve. Tank should just be gone.

I thought that was always going to happen. When McLellan was hired he talked about how there is only so much you can change and that you're really just trying to get the most out of what is already in place. Which he did a great job at until they had to take two weeks off with just a max of four practices and no games to keep everyone sharp.

I don't think it is surprising that coming out of that break, playing games with heightened pressure, with injuries building up, that this team slips back into some of the ugliness that festered under 2.5 years of Lalonde.

I mean, there isn't much of a chance that Larkin goes to play for the national team and is trusted primarily as a shutdown guy just to come back to Detroit and not know what he's doing. Guys like Compher, Copp, Mott, etc. have been at a minimum fine defensively elsewhere, but have moments of utter idiocy here. Nearly everyone on our blueline outside of Holl have looked far better with McLellan than under Lalonde.

We don't have the deepest team, we don't have the most talented team, and while I get ragging on some of these guys from time to time...what I see most often when this team is at its worst is a team that doesn't have an underlying structure to fall back on and a near total lack of trust in each other to fulfill their roles.

So, yeah, I think McLellan is going to be tearing stuff down and rebuilding it over the summer.
 
I thought that was always going to happen. When McLellan was hired he talked about how there is only so much you can change and that you're really just trying to get the most out of what is already in place. Which he did a great job at until they had to take two weeks off with just a max of four practices and no games to keep everyone sharp.

I don't think it is surprising that coming out of that break, playing games with heightened pressure, with injuries building up, that this team slips back into some of the ugliness that festered under 2.5 years of Lalonde.

I mean, there isn't much of a chance that Larkin goes to play for the national team and is trusted primarily as a shutdown guy just to come back to Detroit and not know what he's doing. Guys like Compher, Copp, Mott, etc. have been at a minimum fine defensively elsewhere, but have moments of utter idiocy here. Nearly everyone on our blueline outside of Holl have looked far better with McLellan than under Lalonde.

We don't have the deepest team, we don't have the most talented team, and while I get ragging on some of these guys from time to time...what I see most often when this team is at its worst is a team that doesn't have an underlying structure to fall back on and a near total lack of trust in each other to fulfill their roles.

So, yeah, I think McLellan is going to be tearing stuff down and rebuilding it over the summer.
Yeah in my opinion Larkin, Ray, Compher, Kasper, Copp, Ras, Motte, Soder should all be plus defensive players, but they are not looking it now. We get into the D zone and these guys look like they are lost in the wilderness. That's a system IQ issue. This is true of Ed and Seider too. Neither of those guys are dumb hockey players and yet sometimes I see them with this "Duh" look on their face after a play or goal. I'm really hoping the Lalonde malaise isn't permanent and Todd/Trent can break through with a full camp. I also didn't expect a ton of change this season, but this team has some "in their head" issues especially defensively.

Some guys you just aren't going to get a ton out of defensively. Kane is Kane, Tank is Tank. DBC is a pretty good neutral zone guy but he's 5'8. He is going to get pinned if he's going against 6'4 guys. Berg I think could be similar to DBC but I don't think he has the extra drive DBC does. DBC is a really high compete guy. He rarely if ever quits on plays. Berg is more your standard small forward perimeter guy. Its why I think at least 2 of the 4 need to go. DBC is a for sure stay, but Stevie really needs to look at how he is compiling this team. Nothing about this team ever screamed strong defensive team like he purported to want the Wings to be this year.
 
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Yeah in my opinion Larkin, Ray, Compher, Kasper, Copp, Ras, Motte, Soder should all be plus defensive players, but they are not looking it now. We get into the D zone and these guys look like they are lost in the wilderness. That's a system IQ issue. This is true of Ed and Seider too. Neither of those guys are dumb hockey players and yet sometimes I see them with this "Duh" look on their face after a play or goal. I'm really hoping the Lalonde malaise isn't permanent and Todd/Trent can break through with a full camp. I also didn't expect a ton of change this season, but this team has some "in their head" issues especially defensively.

Some guys you just aren't going to get a ton out of defensively. Kane is Kane, Tank is Tank. DBC is a pretty good neutral zone guy but he's 5'8. He is going to get pinned if he's going against 6'4 guys. Berg I think could be similar to DBC but I don't think he has the extra drive DBC does. DBC is a really high compete guy. He rarely if ever quits on plays. Berg is more your standard small forward perimeter guy. Its why I think at least 2 of the 4 need to go. DBC is a for sure stay, but Stevie really needs to look at how he is compiling this team. Nothing about this team ever screamed strong defensive team like he purported to want the Wings to be this year.

Yeah, I see that, too. They'll be fine for a long while, but then have a few shifts where it just falls apart. And it seems once they lose it, they have to fight really hard to get it back. I thought that was actually their strongest part of the first two periods last night. They didn't get frazzled, they played their system, and kept it tight. Was it perfect? No, but they weren't running all over the place giving up odd man rushes everywhere. Then it came apart a bit in the third.

I think Berggren is gone. I can live with the rest, they either bring some needed offense or we can just bury Tank on the fourth line for a year. For as disappointing as Tank has been, he's still better than Motte. If we can fill in above so that just pushing Tank down makes sense, it's still a win for us.
 
Gustafsson, there was at least the "who even is this guy" uncertainty to make his inevitable failure appear uncertain.


The only intrigue around Gustafsson was that he previously had a career year when he spent a lot of time playing behind Kane and Debrincat in Chicago.

He otherwise just looked like a Temu Shayne Gostisbehere
 
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He’s top 15 in the league at his position but isn’t great defensively. It’s not for lack of trying but he’s average at best. I just don’t think Larkin has ever had a good enough coach to teach him the finer points of defensive center play. Two seasons with Zetterberg wasn’t enough.

Call me crazy but I can see a vet like Toews, diminished as he is, being great for our kids. Or someone like ROR. Our kids need good teachers.
I guess my #1 concern with Larkin is how he continues to skate with the puck to the corner/along the boards in the attacking zone and blindly throw the puck towards the net...He lacks the hi-end creativity.
 
Yup...As I posted in another thread it's about that time (9th season now) where we begin to look forward to the draft lottery and curmudgeonly scan the standings for a bandwagon team to hop on (if that's your thing)...I'm thinking Winnipeg - it's sorta like Milwaukee - cold, drab, people don't wanna be there (for the most part) and yet we exist.
I am also looking at Winnipeg.
 
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I'm just a TV fan, but I don't recall seeing a lot of extra effort in the first half of the season. Long arm stretches to clip the passing lane, head-down sell-out back-checking efforts, lay-down stretch-it-out-block/defense efforts. Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe they were there. But I figure that, as pros, they each know their limits, and they know the rules. Every extra stretch, every lay-it-down, every "eff it, I'm taking the risk" play, that could be a ligament, a shoulder socket, a groin, or a calf muscle. Just ask Husso. And that's aside from the potential penalties for tripping, interference, etc.

I think I saw more of that effort since McLellan took over for sure, but in the bleak stretches, I see less. Everyone (maybe except for @ShanahanMan :) ) loved that leap that Ghost took at the end of last season to knock the puck down to the ice and keep it in, but that's a potential "uh, that's not a hockey move, boss!" tear or tweak from his obliques that he was more than willing to commit to, IMO.

I just don't see as much of that from this current team this season, bad half (pre-Xmas) or good half (post-Xmas).

I guess the point that I'm trying to make is that I want to see more RISK ACCEPTANCE from every member of the team on the ice, from top to bottom. Do we think Justin Holl doesn't know that he's not Nick Lidstrom? Of course he knows. So, IMO, earn the pay check, and sell out to the play. Go down and slide and take the risk. It's gonna work or it's not, whatever it is.

It's late and even the teensiest of kidney stones (it was a really teeny one) mess with my sleep. I'm meandering. Better HFBoarders than I can interpret what I'm trying to say. I'm not begging to see anyone going skates-first into the boards to stop a low-percentage pass, but jebus. At least convince me that, once I stopped crying about how much my ankles hurt from being on skates for 5 minutes, I couldn't replace some of these bottom six/bottom pair guys, effort-wise.

My big brown dog (Mal) and his current "little" foster bro (Brownie) say "hi!".

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