Post-Game Talk: Game #55: Canucks lose 5-2 to the Blackhawks - Well at least Kassian is good.

[Rick Rocket]

Another thing that makes me shake my head: With 2 top-6 forwards out of the lineup, Zac Dalpe gets a chance to center the second line against Phoenix. He plays a strong game, gets 2 points and looks like a legit offensive threat. So he gets 3:37 of ice time in each of the next 2 games and Brad Richardson starts getting top-6 ice time.

Am I missing something?

now this I agree with.

 

[JuniorNelson]

Is it possible that Vancouver doesn't know how to handle Weber? I'm usually not watching your games, just checking the stats afterwards. As a Swiss the Canucks lost much of my sympathy by letting him play at forward and with a TOI of around 3 minutes a game - That's like a fist in his face. As I said, haven't seen him play but the stats looked quite alright every time he got a chance as a D with decent minutes. Way to go screwing up your players...

He hides in the neutral zone too much.

 

[VanCanucks53]

Hawks fans at the game today were some of the worst I've seen as far as visiting fans go. Really annoying. The guy (Hawks fan) who threw the jersey was an asshat.

Kassian looked good but what a frustrating game to be at. It was 2-0 but you knew it was a matter of time before the Hawks tied it. 5 unanswered goals? Jeez.

 

[Jimson Hogarth*]

Oh yes, the second line center who has had how much top line and 1st unit powerplay minutes?
Please stop with the leading goal scorer comment. I see that you can read stats. I watch games. I can do it too. He's also a -7 and has 3 goals more than Higgins. Once Chris takes the lead are you gonna claim he is untouchable?
I am suggesting he may be one of the few forwards with trade value. The Canucks obviously need some improvements and change. What ones could have the biggest possible impact?

With the canucks C ice depth where its at I don't think trading a center is a viable option unless you get one via a different trade. With all that in mind I'm not sure we are going to find via trade or reasonable FA signing a better scoring center than Ryan Kesler. I think the key is putting him in the best possible spots to score.

I know these games are about process and doing the little things right to make sure they are adhering to the new style of play, but at this point I'd almost prefer the coaching staff do whatever it takes to get burrows, D. Sedin and Kesler going.

 

[Johnny Canucker]

Hawks fans at the game today were some of the worst I've seen as far as visiting fans go. Really annoying. The guy (Hawks fan) who threw the jersey was an asshat.

Kassian looked good but what a frustrating game to be at. It was 2-0 but you knew it was a matter of time before the Hawks tied it. 5 unanswered goals? Jeez.

This is the new canucks. What is this teams identity?
Hard to play against? No
Outskill you? No
Fast? No
Beat you on the PP? No
Hold down leads? No.
Tough? No

With AV a lead was as good as money in the bank, it was incredible. So he didnt use his timeout? Big deal. Now we have a coach that uses his timeouts all the time, because we are constantly getting spanked in waves.

In 2011 our identity was,

A team of divers, yappy, hard to play against, fast, killer PP, hated by the leauge, a lead was a lock, and we had SWAGGER.

Its like night and day. Coaching is a large part if the reason.

 

[Johnny Canucker]

Someone threw a jersey??? Really... Because of a January loss against a top team while missing our best player? That's crazy. I'm pretty down on many aspects of this team starting with our GM but that's incredibly stupid.

Or a culmination of 4 wins in last 14 games?

 

[iFan]

This is the new canucks. What is this teams identity?
Hard to play against? No
Outskill you? No
Fast? No
Beat you on the PP? No
Hold down leads? No.
Tough? No

With AV a lead was as good as money in the bank, it was incredible. So he didnt use his timeout? Big deal. Now we have a coach that uses his timeouts all the time, because we are constantly getting spanked in waves.

In 2011 our identity was,

A team of divers, yappy, hard to play against, fast, killer PP, hated by the leauge, a lead was a lock, and we had SWAGGER.

Its like night and day. Coaching is a large part if the reason.

Yeah for this core to be good it needs its 2011 identity back cause that's what this cores type is, not a gritty defensive team that we've been trying to be since the Hodgson trade. AV time was up here, Torts isn't the problem its a mess all over. When your GM and coach want a team to be the LA Kings or Bruins you need the right players for that style and that's not here, try and turn the Hawks into that type of team and it'll be just as messy as it's here. But it really doesn't matter much this core has been weakened and age is setting in and making it presents known, IMHO we're too far out in the deep end of the pool and we'll be hanging out there for a bit, we won't sink to the bottom like Oilers or Calgary but we will be stuck for awhile.

 

[me2]

Is it possible that Vancouver doesn't know how to handle Weber? I'm usually not watching your games, just checking the stats afterwards. As a Swiss the Canucks lost much of my sympathy by letting him play at forward and with a TOI of around 3 minutes a game - That's like a fist in his face. As I said, haven't seen him play but the stats looked quite alright every time he got a chance as a D with decent minutes. Way to go screwing up your players...

Hamhuis Bieksa
Edler Tanev
Stanton Garrison

are all better defensemen than Weber. It's either the press box, the AHL or 4th line when they are healthy. He was waived earlier this season and nobody wanted him on waivers. I'll bet Weber is happier to be playing in the NHL, 3 mins of 4th line > AHL.

 

[Type Not Specified]

Oh yes, the second line center who has had how much top line and 1st unit powerplay minutes?
Please stop with the leading goal scorer comment. I see that you can read stats. I watch games. I can do it too. He's also a -7 and has 3 goals more than Higgins. Once Chris takes the lead are you gonna claim he is untouchable?
I am suggesting he may be one of the few forwards with trade value. The Canucks obviously need some improvements and change. What ones could have the biggest possible impact?

If we can trade Kesler for someone like Crosby, Malkin or Tavares then great... otherwise the upgrade is likely to be marginal at best. That's what I'm saying.

 

[Rick Rocket]

With the canucks C ice depth where its at I don't think trading a center is a viable option unless you get one via a different trade. With all that in mind I'm not sure we are going to find via trade or reasonable FA signing a better scoring center than Ryan Kesler. I think the key is putting him in the best possible spots to score.

I know these games are about process and doing the little things right to make sure they are adhering to the new style of play, but at this point I'd almost prefer the coaching staff do whatever it takes to get burrows, D. Sedin and Kesler going.

What I was originally suggesting was it may be an idea to trade Kes if we could find a solid offensive replacement. He have a lot of holes, but I would like to at least gain a possible center who would make the players around him better. I have low faith that with our current roster and what I have seen thus far that they can get him to perform much better than he is currently.
I do really hope otherwise.

 

[Reverend Mayhem]

The difference between us? That second goal would have completely deflated us.

 

[Orca Smash]

This is the new canucks. What is this teams identity?
Hard to play against? No
Outskill you? No
Fast? No
Beat you on the PP? No
Hold down leads? No.
Tough? No

With AV a lead was as good as money in the bank, it was incredible. So he didnt use his timeout? Big deal. Now we have a coach that uses his timeouts all the time, because we are constantly getting spanked in waves.

In 2011 our identity was,

A team of divers, yappy, hard to play against, fast, killer PP, hated by the leauge, a lead was a lock, and we had SWAGGER.

Its like night and day. Coaching is a large part if the reason.

You seem to keep saying this almost ignoring last season even existed or you did not watch. Then why last season did we have trouble holding leads (our win % heading into 3rd with a lead last season was a poor .783% ranked 24th, this year its was identical after 48 games and ranked 21st), trouble scoring (20th in the league in goals scored), a 22nd ranked PP, and get swept in the first round last season as well? (we blew two late 3rd period games to san jose alone last playoffs). I think you need to rewatch games last season to see how similar we are to the team of last year if you think this is a new coaching problem (while loosing a goalie in schneider and being in a much tougher division this season). Also not that it really matters because its a different team.... but the team with the best win percentage with a lead heading into the 3rd over the past 4 years? Torts coached new york rangers. They were constantly one of the best (usually the best) teams in the league at holding a lead heading into the 3rd.

Schneider and loungo deserve alot of credit in 2012 and 2013 for shutting the door on many teams most nights. Like I said in a previous thread last year roberto beat nashville 1-0, cory had a 0-0 game vs cbj we won in a shootout, and a 1-0 40 save performance vs kings games we sat here many nights and said the goaltender stole us that one. That tandem was money in the bank on any given night either one could steal us games competing for the net. Now if you want to go back to 2011, well that was the glory year everyone wants to reminiscence about.

 

[vanuck]

Is it possible that Vancouver doesn't know how to handle Weber? I'm usually not watching your games, just checking the stats afterwards. As a Swiss the Canucks lost much of my sympathy by letting him play at forward and with a TOI of around 3 minutes a game - That's like a fist in his face. As I said, haven't seen him play but the stats looked quite alright every time he got a chance as a D with decent minutes. Way to go screwing up your players...

It was press box or 4th line RW at the beginning of the year.

some adversity is good for this team. Need to dig deep and find over the next few months who ups their game. I still think this team makes the playoff assuming the team can get/stay healthy. Anything more is a bonus given this has always been a transition year with little in the way of expectations...people are just spoiled by the president trophy's but in reality there is a ton of parity and sometimes you have down years by alot of players, other years you get career seasons from players and go to the finals. Daniel, Burrows, etc aren't nearly as bad as everyone thinks and are still plenty capable of scoring goals in this league. I predict that when Daniel, Hank, and Burrows return after the olympic break they pick things up. call me crazy i dont care but these guys have too much history and chemistry to continue in such a slump.

this place gets way too depressing after losses. This team isnt any worse than the 07 canucks who we cheered on like crazy despite the fact we knew they had trouble scoring goals and didnt have much chance to do anything in the playoffs. We are an underdog as it stands, accept it and stop comparing this team to our president trophy teams.

Good post.

 

[vanuck]

Some big overreactions going on here as usual but I have to admit that - even for a person who generally views this team in an optimistic light - the team did better than I thought in terms of score-close shot attempts at 5on5.

This, with all the injuries and other factors that are going against this squad right now. They were basically right there with the Hawks for most of the game. Were it not for a PP goal against and that unlucky bounce to Toews...

------

In-game itself, I thought Kassian should have been played more. He got more time towards the end of the game but I think this is where having a coach like Torts helps in that he's quick to recognize who's going and who isn't.

Booth-Richardson-Kassian was probably our best line.

Overall the forwards were still uneven at times in getting in hard on the forecheck and pressuring. When they did I thought we looked good but it still has to be a lot more frequent. Will be looking for this consistent mindset all year if I have to.

Also liked what they tried to go for on the PP with Weber at the left point, and stuck with it. Looked better tonight, FWIW.

 

[Outside99*]

Is it possible that Vancouver doesn't know how to handle Weber? I'm usually not watching your games, just checking the stats afterwards. As a Swiss the Canucks lost much of my sympathy by letting him play at forward and with a TOI of around 3 minutes a game - That's like a fist in his face. As I said, haven't seen him play but the stats looked quite alright every time he got a chance as a D with decent minutes. Way to go screwing up your players...

The forward stints is so he can be used on the PP and probably partially reputation from Montreal days where he was used as a forward (which he is not). The 3 minutes is what 4th line got as a whole..

Otherwise, with all D healthy, he should be in the press box. The team does have 4 highly paid top 4 dmen, a stellar young defender in Tanev and a pleasant surprise in Stanton, so Weber is 7th.

Nonetheless, he was not any worse than some of the others, made some good plays and looks serviceable (to me) in a 6/7 role. Definitely has a good shot - quick release and accurate.

 

[Free Edler]

Disagree that they aren't comparable. I agree with you that Calgary deluded themselves into thinking they were a playoff team, and four lost seasons later they've finally given up. I believe we are on the cusp of entering those 4 lost seasons. I believe where we are now is where Calgary was at the beginning of that sequence. The fact we've fallen further than they had to get to that point is irrelevant.

I don't think it's irrelevant at all, the Canucks' struggles recently combined with the ridiculous expectations people have here aren't helping things at all. Teams go into slumps. Further to that, you don't give a coach like John Tortorella a five-year deal if you plan to blow things up in year one.

Before their four wasted seasons, Calgary went out of the playoffs in the first round four years in a row with three different coaches. In effect, they wasted eight seasons - and four coaches, five if you count Hartley's first year - before they got serious about a rebuild.

By that time, they had virtually nothing of value left to trade to kick-start things. Kipper invoked his NTC as was his right, Iginla was in steep decline and only fetched a late first with a couple middling prospects and Bouwmeester also got them a late first and two other middling prospects who are AHL/Europe fodder.

There's still more to work with here.

 

[Grumbler]

The score flattered us really. Hawks stopped skating in the third. What a joke team we are...we just stopped trying completely after they took the lead. Holy crap even seeing the highlights is painful.

I can accept the fact that we lose when we are playing hard and trying, but lose with a **** effort just pisses me off.

 

[PhilMick]

I don't think it's irrelevant at all, the Canucks' struggles recently combined with the ridiculous expectations people have here aren't helping things at all. Teams go into slumps. Further to that, you don't give a coach like John Tortorella a five-year deal if you plan to blow things up in year one.

Before their four wasted seasons, Calgary went out of the playoffs in the first round four years in a row with three different coaches. In effect, they wasted eight seasons - and four coaches, five if you count Hartley's first year - before they got serious about a rebuild.

By that time, they had virtually nothing of value left to trade to kick-start things. Kipper invoked his NTC as was his right, Iginla was in steep decline and only fetched a late first with a couple middling prospects and Bouwmeester also got them a late first and two other middling prospects who are AHL/Europe fodder.

There's still more to work with here.

Yeah it's not Calgary bad. We already have more to work with, prospect wise, than they do.

 

[PhilMick]

The score flattered us really. Hawks stopped skating in the third. What a joke team we are...we just stopped trying completely after they took the lead. Holy crap even seeing the highlights is painful.

I can accept the fact that we lose when we are playing hard and trying, but lose with a **** effort just pisses me off.

Those classy Hawks, didn't want to run up the score. That's what you get with a good Canadian boy (with dead shark eyes) leading you.

 

[MrShift4]

Canucks thought they only had to play for 16 seconds. In reality the Hawks only needed 7 minutes.

 

[BROCK HUGHES]

Yeah it's not Calgary bad. We already have more to work with, prospect wise, than they do.

No its worse,from the Calgary games i have seen,at least there is an effort,the Canuck games i have seen,they give up to easly,or there is no interest.What a great re- set MG.

 

[PhilMick]

No its worse,from the Calgary games i have seen,at least there is an effort,the Canuck games i have seen,they give up to easly,or there is no interest.What a great re- set MG.

I was speaking from a standpoint of what pieces we have moving forward once we acknowledge that we suck atm.

 

[CanaFan]

I don't think it's irrelevant at all, the Canucks' struggles recently combined with the ridiculous expectations people have here aren't helping things at all. Teams go into slumps. Further to that, you don't give a coach like John Tortorella a five-year deal if you plan to blow things up in year one.

Before their four wasted seasons, Calgary went out of the playoffs in the first round four years in a row with three different coaches. In effect, they wasted eight seasons - and four coaches, five if you count Hartley's first year - before they got serious about a rebuild.

By that time, they had virtually nothing of value left to trade to kick-start things. Kipper invoked his NTC as was his right, Iginla was in steep decline and only fetched a late first with a couple middling prospects and Bouwmeester also got them a late first and two other middling prospects who are AHL/Europe fodder.

There's still more to work with here.

But *if* we either miss this season or go out with a whimper in the first round - both more likely than not based in the season to-date - then we are at 3 "wasted" seasons as well, though I guess one of those did come with a PC so perhaps some will be happy with that. How far off are we from Calgary circa 2007-08, which was also their 3rd season post cup run?

Their best asset, Iginla, turned 31 that year.

Our best asset(s) both turned 33.

Their elite goalie played till his late 30's and retired w the team.

It looks like Luongo will do much the same.

Our most tradable assets all have NTCs so we are left looking at players like Higgins, Hansen, and (ugh) Booth to return better or younger assets. How are we better off there?

The glimmers of hope that I have are Kassian, Tanev, and a handful of our prospects, namely Horvat, Shinkaruk, Gaunce, and Fox. The rest are just average.

Are we slightly ahead of Where Calgary was in 2007-08? Somewhat I suppose. But if we persist in thinking we just need to get healthier (injuries are a part of the game) or that we'll solve our scoring problems in free agency (news flash, 29 other teams will be chasing the same 7-8 players), then we may get to Calgary's level sooner than later.

 

[vanuck]

No its worse,from the Calgary games i have seen,at least there is an effort,the Canuck games i have seen,they give up to easly,or there is no interest.What a great re- set MG.

I have to wonder what you were watching then. You must have missed all the games earlier in the year.

 

[Bertie]

Yeah for this core to be good it needs its 2011 identity back cause that's what this cores type is, not a gritty defensive team that we've been trying to be since the Hodgson trade. AV time was up here, Torts isn't the problem its a mess all over. When your GM and coach want a team to be the LA Kings or Bruins you need the right players for that style and that's not here, try and turn the Hawks into that type of team and it'll be just as messy as it's here. But it really doesn't matter much this core has been weakened and age is setting in and making it presents known, IMHO we're too far out in the deep end of the pool and we'll be hanging out there for a bit, we won't sink to the bottom like Oilers or Calgary but we will be stuck for awhile.

Maybe AV's time wasn't up........why do you say that. Especially now that his problems have manifested themselves all over again with Torts. It's not the coach but the man supplying the players to the coach that is to blame.

Many of us could see it prior to Torts and it was obvious who should have been replaced and it wasn't AV.

AV was finally reduced to playing players like Gordon, Ebbett, Bitz, Gragnani, Kassian, Duco, Sweatt, and other duffers, yet he kept us in the playoffs right up till he was fired. He was finally reduced to playing musical chairs with the personnel to try and make things happen, after 3 years of GM NEGLECT.

Torts and his merry men have got to that stage in 4 months.

The problem is blindingly clear. Gillis is such an idiot, trying to catch up trends instead of setting them, bringing in a coach who's only answer is get "stiffer" when we have never lacked stiffness only reinforcements. The lawyer/agent is out of his depth.