GDT: Game 50 @ Predators 5pm

[Lebanezer]

Who has developed this year? Like honestly who has gotten better as the year has gone on?

Smith hasn't, Celebrini looks basically the exact same as he did in his first few games, none of our defenders have improved, if anything our defense is starting to slide backwards. None of our vets have improved, except maybe someone like Kunin looks better this year compared to last.

I agree development is the name of the game right now, but that is why I am not really pleased with what I am seeing from Warsofsky thus far, because to me, no one is noticeably progressing or developing on this team, and if anything this team is getting worse not better as the year has gone on.

I fail to see how the objective you are putting so much stock in, is actually being delivered this year.

It's such an odd thing to see players be put in a position to fail, fail, then be replaced by older players with no real significant potential, who are as bad, or in most cases worse and the organization act like they gave them a chance or care about development.

 

[hohosaregood]

I'd say Ferraro, Eklund, and Smith have developed the most this season. Zetterlund's fallen off the most. Celebrini is great already and is clearly going through the learning process. Thrun bounces up and down a lot.

There's not really anybody else to develop there. Cardwell and Graf look like they'll take spots next year though. And honestly pretty disappointed by Gushchin's season since he's been sent down.

 

[OrrNumber4]

It's such an odd thing to see players be put in a position to fail

This is the heart of the issue. What's considered being put in a position to fail/succeed? How much is on the player or management? What's reasonable to expect of a young player, and what's fair to expect of a rebuilding/contending team?

replaced by older players with no real significant potential, who are as bad, or in most cases worse

But this might be the team not wanting a young player being overwhelmed/steamrolled. E.g., send Thompson to the AHL where he can work on his game, and let Rutta get slammed in the NHL.

 

[Anomie2029]

I'd say Ferraro, Eklund, and Smith have developed the most this season. Zetterlund's fallen off the most. Celebrini is great already and is clearly going through the learning process. Thrun bounces up and down a lot.

There's not really anybody else to develop there. Cardwell and Graf look like they'll take spots next year though. And honestly pretty disappointed by Gushchin's season since he's been sent down.

 

[weastern bias]

Who has developed this year? Like honestly who has gotten better as the year has gone on?

Smith hasn't, Celebrini looks basically the exact same as he did in his first few games

Just an incorrect opinion, both top picks have CLEARLY improved as the season has progressed

 

[Star Platinum]

Who has developed this year? Like honestly who has gotten better as the year has gone on?

Smith hasn't, Celebrini looks basically the exact same as he did in his first few games, none of our defenders have improved, if anything our defense is starting to slide backwards. None of our vets have improved, except maybe someone like Kunin looks better this year compared to last.

I agree development is the name of the game right now, but that is why I am not really pleased with what I am seeing from Warsofsky thus far, because to me, no one is noticeably progressing or developing on this team, and if anything this team is getting worse not better as the year has gone on.

I fail to see how the objective you are putting so much stock in, is actually being delivered this year.

I think Smith has gotten better. Celebrini was already good and now he's having to adjust to what teams are doing to slow him down. The guys on defense are not really guys we are developing, but I will say Ferraro has gotten much steadier than he was at the beginning of the year. The only guy that has gotten significant minutes on defense that was someone we could develop is Liljegren and honestly, I can see why Toronto gave up on him, though not necessarily for the reason their fans said. I don't see him getting physically overwhelmed as much as I see him be careless with the puck and unaware of where he needs to be defensively at times. But as a 3rd pairing RD for next year, I'm fine with him. Ceci, Thrun, Rutta, and Walman just are what they are IMO - Walman's production is due more to having more opportunity here than he did in Detroit.

The part that frustrates me with the coaching is that you would think guys would get more cohesive over time and I don't really think that's true. The forwards don't come back to support the defense consistently when they need to, somebody doesn't cover for defenders when they pinch, and we just don't look cohesive bringing the puck up the ice. To me, those are coaching issues.

 

[Anomie2029]

"Ferraro has been getting much steadier than he was at the beginning of the year" and "Thrun is just what he is" is amazing.

Net rating courtesy of Hockey Stat Cards:

 

[Pinkfloyd]

Development in a rookie season isn’t always about getting better. It’s also about experiencing adversity. It’s 50 games into this team forging a new identity through young players and a young coach. Just let it all wash over you and enjoy the game. They may be the worst in the league still but you can see the potential there with Celebrini, Eklund, Smith, and Askarov. They just need time.

 

[Lebanezer]

This is the heart of the issue. What's considered being put in a position to fail/succeed? How much is on the player or management? What's reasonable to expect of a young player, and what's fair to expect of a rebuilding/contending team?

Well, it's fairly simple if the organization can properly assess their own players. If we look at the AHL callups from this year.

Daniil Gushchin's only path to success in the NHL is as a top 6 winger. This seems fairly obvious when you consider his play style. Besides his obvious lack of height, he is a finesse player with a high level of offensive skill. In his entire career, including with the Barracuda, he has been asked to and succeeded when playing on the top 2 lines. To then put him on a 3rd or 4th line in the NHL and think that he's going establish himself as well as gel and succeed with grinders is most definitely putting him in a position to fail. Of course, we are all aware of the "ol' boys' club" mentality that you have to earn the right to play in the top 6, but it's an organizational failure from the top down to not objectively analyze your players and prospects and put them in situations where you can get the most out of them. If that's not the goal, then you're simply doing it wrong.


Collin Graf and Ethan Cardwell have the attributes and capabilities that are more suited to middle 6 or bottom 6 roles. Graf has the size and hockey IQ to do well. Cardwell has the tenacity and speed. Both have done relatively well in their opportunities to play down in the lineup. Graf struggled playing with both Celebrini and Granlund (at 5 on 5) but has had better results with Wennberg. Playing Graf on the top 2 lines has not gone well up to this point. I can understand why they were giving him a chance given that he was leading all AHL rookies in scoring, but he's not a clear top 6 winger by any means. Putting him down the lineup gives him a much better chance to succeed.

When considering the situational expectations, on a rebuilding team the lease should be considerably longer than on a contender. For someone like Gushchin, in his current state, he wouldn't sniff any ice time on a contender right now barring catastrophic injuries. However, on a rebuilding team, like the Sharks, with very few top 6 wingers, he should be given a fair amount of run on the top 2 lines to see if there's anything there. I'd say like 10+ games at least with either Celebrini or Granlund. Graf and Cardwell on the other hand could contribute on the bottom lines of a contender with very simple expectations and a short leash. On a rebuilding team, they should get much longer run on the middle lines with PK responsibilities.

But this might be the team not wanting a young player being overwhelmed/steamrolled. E.g., send Thompson to the AHL where he can work on his game, and let Rutta get slammed in the NHL.

This cuts both ways. You can't protect them from the rigors of the NHL both mentally and physically. If they can't handle it when given the opportunity to play with low expectations, should anyone expect them to handle it better when the expectations are higher? I'm not advocating for throwing everyone into the fire, but with the Sharks' roster, at least give them a shot and see what happens. It will give you some indication about their long term future with the organization.

 

[Star Platinum]

"Ferraro has been getting much steadier than he was at the beginning of the year" and "Thrun is just what he is" is amazing.

Net rating courtesy of Hockey Stat Cards:
View attachment 965591

I don't really think Hockey Stat Cards are all that, to be honest.

 

[Hobocop]

When considering the situational expectations, on a rebuilding team the lease should be considerably longer than on a contender. For someone like Gushchin, in his current state, he wouldn't sniff any ice time on a contender right now barring catastrophic injuries. However, on a rebuilding team, like the Sharks, with very few top 6 wingers, he should be given a fair amount of run on the top 2 lines to see if there's anything there. I'd say like 10+ games at least with either Celebrini or Granlund. Graf and Cardwell on the other hand could contribute on the bottom lines of a contender with very simple expectations and a short leash. On a rebuilding team, they should get much longer run on the middle lines with PK responsibilities.

I think I really lost my patience with the Sharks in this regard just recently when injuries hit and in response, Dellandrea got promoted to the second line. Someone's going to have to tell me why we need to have him at all, let alone why he's getting promoted to the top 6. Him, Grundstrom, Kostin, I don't really see why these guys need to be where they are.

There's absolutely no reason we couldn't have had young players cycle in and out of the lineup. But we haven't, for years. Gushchin isn't working out on the Sharks? Send him down and call up another winger. Graf and Cardwell could easily have been getting bottom six time this season. I do not understand this need for us to have plugs on the bottom lines. It's absolutely pointless. And we gave an extra year of term to Dellandrea and Grundstrom, too. We'll be doing this again next year with them, unless we can throw them into a trade.

I feel like some people don't want anyone getting NHL time unless they've "earned" it. It's very "entry level job, five years of experience required" to me. We're a rebuilding team, and the worst team in the league. This is the perfect environment to give new faces ice time. Who knows, maybe one of them grows enough to be trade bait, if that's what you're into.

 

[OrrNumber4]

Daniil Gushchin's only path to success in the NHL is as a top 6 winger. This seems fairly obvious when you consider his play style. Besides his obvious lack of height, he is a finesse player with a high level of offensive skill. In his entire career, including with the Barracuda, he has been asked to and succeeded when playing on the top 2 lines. To then put him on a 3rd or 4th line in the NHL and think that he's going establish himself as well as gel and succeed with grinders is most definitely putting him in a position to fail. Of course, we are all aware of the "ol' boys' club" mentality that you have to earn the right to play in the top 6, but it's an organizational failure from the top down to not objectively analyze your players and prospects and put them in situations where you can get the most out of them. If that's not the goal, then you're simply doing it wrong.

Devil's advocate:

1) If Gushchin were going to be a top-6 forward, then at age 21-22 he would be tearing up the AHL. Perhaps the Sharks believed that his path to the NHL was as a complementary depth forward, and he would need to be well-rounded. Possibly, his 10 games showed them that he isn't there...
2) Maybe they wanted to see if Gushchin could handle NHL size/speed or show he could be decent defensively. He can be on any line for that.
3) True, he didn't play with great linemates or have easy minutes, but at least IMO Gushchin was very unimpressive in his ten-game-stint. I'd like him to get another chance, especially since Grundstrom and Dellandrea haven't wowed, but hope is fading fast.

Collin Graf and Ethan Cardwell have the attributes and capabilities that are more suited to middle 6 or bottom 6 roles. Graf has the size and hockey IQ to do well. Cardwell has the tenacity and speed. Both have done relatively well in their opportunities to play down in the lineup. Graf struggled playing with both Celebrini and Granlund (at 5 on 5) but has had better results with Wennberg. Playing Graf on the top 2 lines has not gone well up to this point. I can understand why they were giving him a chance given that he was leading all AHL rookies in scoring, but he's not a clear top 6 winger by any means. Putting him down the lineup gives him a much better chance to succeed.

It sounds like you have negligible differences with how Cardwell and Graf are being handled. Let me add that it's tough to assess Graf's play in the top 6 when the entire team has been awful these past few games.

When considering the situational expectations, on a rebuilding team the lease should be considerably longer than on a contender. For someone like Gushchin, in his current state, he wouldn't sniff any ice time on a contender right now barring catastrophic injuries. However, on a rebuilding team, like the Sharks, with very few top 6 wingers, he should be given a fair amount of run on the top 2 lines to see if there's anything there.

I feel you, and I think given how the other players have performed Gushchin should get a call-up (though his AHL numbers aren't helping his case). But, I think it's possible that Grier and the Sharks just don't see him as having that much potential. It requires some faith that the scouting of the Sharks can recognize what they do and do not have...

All of this is to say that the Sharks may be handling these players differently than you'd like because their evaluation of the talent is different.