GDT: Game 34: Sharks vs. Jets 7:30pm NBCSCA

[sampler]

Love this post, Cas. I think it illustrates exactly how close we actually are.

You have three top liners (that's how a top line works). You have 7 middle six guys (recognize the middle six and bottom six overlap on the third line . I think kunin and sturm do not qualify as potentail 2nd or 3rd line but I think the other 5 do (Toffoli, Zetterlund, Kovalenko, Smith, and Wennberg). That's eight top 9 forwards. Hence, why I wrote that we need just one more top 6 forward, preferably an actual top line forward (plus resign granny)

I also agree that kovalenko and Askarov are question marks. We dont know if Kovy will retain top 6 status. We also dont know if Askarov will be able to handle the starting role well.

However, if we choose NOT to go out and acquire more talent outside the draft, the team may be mired in rebuild mode forever, adding one or two good young players each year. Remember ELC years are the key here: they give you potential top production at league min prices for 3 years. if you squander ELC years for too long, you end up having to pay these young guns (like eklund or celly) big money before you even are competitive and cannot afford good vet talent to compliment them.

Celly costs 1M per year the next two years. If you squander those years in full rebuild mode (trade away all vet talent for assets, and dont go after any quality vets in UFA), then when the time comes to actually go for it, Celly will cost you double digit millions. Instead, take that cap savings for the next two years and get a top line forward! Same goes for ek, smith, dick when he makes it, and '25 top pick. Take those 1M ELC values and SPEND on a top line D, if you can. I can see how in years 4 or 5 of that vet contract, the cap crunch issue might come in as the kids get their big $$ but the vet $$ is still there. As such, be sure you do not splurge too much. 1 top line F, 1 top line D. Thats it. All other deals should be no more than 2-3 years (like Wennberg's, Dyl, Grundstrom, or walman.) Then, you can complete for the PO's during the kids' ELC years, and then as they need a raise, cooch and pickles and the salary retention hits come off, and you only have a few big $$ aging vets on the roster.

I think the young talent acquisition phase ends with the '25 draft. This coming summer should be the PO run mode (step one to the cup run mode). BTW, Grier did just that this past year adding Toffoli, Wennberg, Walman, Ceci, Liljgren, Askarov, and Kovalenko (and to a lesser degree dylandrea and grundstrom, who I think Grier hoped would be better). Thats 1/3 of your roster in addition to celebrini and Smith internally. So, figure maybe two more internal grads (Mukh/Dick/Pohlcamp/Cagnoni/Thompson/Thrun fighting for a spot) and (bystedt, Musty, haltunnen, Graf, Gushkin also pushing for a spot), and two more top quality vets is the goal by next October. Totally possible and fits well in the cap structure for now and going forward.

Note: It would be a major error to trade future assets currently in system to win now. Moving non-central assets like Gush or Bordy is fine, but I would be totally against trading any of the top 5-10 prospects or any major draft capital to add near term talent. This is NOT the phase of rentals or "Cup or Bust", but it is time to continue adding quality talent to the room.

 

[Pinkfloyd]

You raise all good points, Pink, as usual . I agree that all are very reasonable and realistic acquisitions but that the 1D is the boogeyman. I also agree that expecting a kid like Dick or Cagnoni to step into that role right away is not likely, and frankly, counterproductive to proper development.

You mentioned Dobson, but I wonder if there are others? Or other Walman-like guys who had top pair skill but are undiscovered in a way. I mean, Walman's play this year is unquestionably top pairing level, arguably even 1D level. I mean, he's 9th in the league in scoring (despite missing a few games), and +6 on a team that is big minus, while logging approximately 23 min/gm. That's 1D type production.

The sharks need just one more Walman. An already clear cut proven top line all star is ideal of course, but perhaps Grier can pull off another find. That's really what makes a GM great. Walman was a spectacular find. Kovalenko is shaping up to be another. Zetterlund was another. Grier has done a miraculous job finding undervalued talent so far. I wonder if he cant find another one? After all, if your team is really just one player away from the rebuild completed, then it seems foolish to tank again and not do all you can to acquire that player. I fail to see why we should not compete for the playoffs next season if grier has a good summer. I know it sounds crazy, but I acually think this team, exactly as is but with Askarov in net and more NHL experience from the kids, is good enough to make the PO's. I truly believe their record is not reflective of their skill level or overall play.

p.s.: I agree that grier would be wise to get value from Ceci, Granny, etc, athe deadline but I do hope that he can make a run to resign them this summer. They have fit in well, and I feel both would be excellent pieces to keep for the next few years as the run the playoffs/cup begins.

I'm personally not expecting a 1D acquisition to materialize so I'd prefer for them to continue the rebuilding process by renting out expiring contracts and filling them internally where possible. Walman allows the team the freedom to move players that might have outlived their usefulness in someone like Vlasic and/or Ferraro. I'm not convinced that Walman is a 1D even with his 1D-like production thus far. He's had issues over the course of whole seasons when it comes to producing and playing. That guy needs to play out the year at this level and bring it into next season too before I would consider extending him. We look to have enough guys that could develop into a top pair defenseman where he may need to be treated as a transitional player rather than one of the answers long term. I'm going to be very hesitant about extending a 30 year old defenseman with only two quality years potentially of high level play to a long term deal.

 

[sincityshark]

Solid game even for a loss

 

[matt trick]

Say we 25/35/10 in Macklin’s 70 games means we’d have won or gotten to overtime in half the games he played in. That’s not going to create a culture of losing. Yes there will be blowouts, but by and large the sharks are in most games. That I think builds character.

If it’s y2 great, but I want us in the playoff hunt by y3 of Mack/Smith’s ELC. In contrast, Bedard will likely experience three years of being bottom 5 in his first three years- that’s a problem. In one of those years, he’ll have been on an island with Vlasic and Jones, and in year 2 they added Teravainen. They also have the remains of Hall and Folgino. I guess.

Macklin’s got Ek, Granlund, Zetts, Tofolli, Wennberg plus his buddy Smith; and those two are living with Thornton and Marleau. Granted that’s not a great top 6, but it’s enough talent for a 1st overall to play with in his d+1. We also drafted Mack’s best friend in Wetsch last year. Vibes are good. We can handle a bottom 5 performance this year and marginal growth next year (bottom 10) before things ramp up in Y3 of the ELC.

I’m not saying horde draft picks/prospects; I’m just saying be patient for a bit longer. A 35 point 2 year improvement gets us to .500 and would have been good for 11th last year. Once the draft order is set for the 2026 draft and conversation for Mack’s extension are underway (July 1 2026), I’m fine with going all in.

 

[sampler]

BTW, to those saying that we should NOT go shopping next summer, what do you propose to do with all our cap space? Depending on how much the cap rises, the sharks could have 35M+ in space going into the next year. the only material RFA resigns needed would be zetterlund and Kovalenko (mukh will be a QO basically and Kostin is also largely irrelevant, as he will be very cheap). Kovy should get no more than 3, and zetterlund no more than 5 I would think. So, nearly 30M left over?

What would you suggest?

(btw, rather than target a big fish, they could do more wennberg, Dyllandrea, Grundstrom like deals of 2 years for mid/bottom 6 forwards or practical mid pairing D like Ceci. This is a less risky course of action and allows more cap flexibility going forward, but it also leaves the team just short, kinda like they are now.) Roslovic, Gaudette, Appleton types may be out there for those kind of deals, but do they put you over the top? I think we saw with dylandrea and grundstrom that adding more depth forwards isnt gunna do it...)

 

[LadyStanley]

 

[Star Platinum]

BTW, to those saying that we should NOT go shopping next summer, what do you propose to do with all our cap space? Depending on how much the cap rises, the sharks could have 35M+ in space going into the next year. the only material RFA resigns needed would be zetterlund and Kovalenko (mukh will be a QO basically and Kostin is also largely irrelevant, as he will be very cheap). Kovy should get no more than 3, and zetterlund no more than 5 I would think. So, nearly 30M left over?

What would you suggest?

(btw, rather than target a big fish, they could do more wennberg, Dyllandrea, Grundstrom like deals of 2 years for mid/bottom 6 forwards or practical mid pairing D like Ceci. This is a less risky course of action and allows more cap flexibility going forward, but it also leaves the team just short, kinda like they are now.) Roslovic, Gaudette, Appleton types may be out there for those kind of deals, but do they put you over the top? I think we saw with dylandrea and grundstrom that adding more depth forwards isnt gunna do it...)

They're 100% going to be in the market for at least two upgrades on the defense to enable them to push all of the returning defenders down a level.

 

[TheBeard]

I wouldn't even consider moving Walman this year unless it brings back a player who's very nearly NHL ready that is blocked by the guys in front of him on his current team. I would want to see how Dickinson plays at the NHL level before I know if we can afford to give up our best LHD. Hopefully, we'll have a good idea of where Mukhamadullin is by the end of the year.

I don't think it would be smart, but if someone came knocking with a sweetheart deal I. would be surprised if Grier said no. Either way I would be shocked if Walman is a part of this squad in two years time.

Edmonton finished 8th in goals against that season; that wasn’t because of McDavid.

We’re currently 29th in GA/GP and would need to allow 0.7 fewer per game in order to be 8th. It would take a massive improvement both defensively and in goal for us to get there next year. I don’t see that just happening.

I'm gonna let you guess where Edmonton was in GA/GF the year prior (hint, it wasn't 8th).

 

[sampler]

Say we 25/35/10 in Macklin’s 70 games means we’d have won or gotten to overtime in half the games he played in. That’s not going to create a culture of losing. Yes there will be blowouts, but by and large the sharks are in most games. That I think builds character.

If it’s y2 great, but I want us in the playoff hunt by y3 of Mack/Smith’s ELC. In contrast, Bedard will likely experience three years of being bottom 5 in his first three years- that’s a problem. In one of those years, he’ll have been on an island with Vlasic and Jones, and in year 2 they added Teravainen. They also have the remains of Hall and Folgino. I guess.

Macklin’s got Ek, Granlund, Zetts, Tofolli, Wennberg plus his buddy Smith; and those two are living with Thornton and Marleau. Granted that’s not a great top 6, but it’s enough talent for a 1st overall to play with in his d+1. We also drafted Mack’s best friend in Wetsch last year. Vibes are good. We can handle a bottom 5 performance this year and marginal growth next year (bottom 10) before things ramp up in Y3 of the ELC.

I’m not saying horde draft picks/prospects; I’m just saying be patient for a bit longer. A 35 point 2 year improvement gets us to .500 and would have been good for 11th last year. Once the draft order is set for the 2026 draft and conversation for Mack’s extension are underway (July 1 2026), I’m fine with going all in.

Im glad you brought up bedard and chicago. They are the poster child for how to waste a star's ELC years. No talent around him. No roster building. poor coaching.

To grier's major credit, he has built a respectable roster in functionally two years adding very good undiscovered or underrated talent from putside the organization in Granlund, Zetterlund, Toffoli, Wennberg, Kovalenko, Walman, Ceci, and Liljgren, not to mention Askarov. Add in the graduation of Mukh, Smith, Celly, and Eklund and the sharks had 12 of their 18 skaters dressed last night added to the org within 18 months (actually more if you include Goodrow and Ruuta, and inlcuding both goalies). that's pretty much all of their top 9 and all of their top 4 D except Ferraro added to the sharks since summer 2023.

I cannot imagine grier short circuiting his own rebuild by purposely avoiding adding the top line vet talent he needs to complete the job. If he cant land 'em, he cant land 'em. And, he traded Blackwood because it was clear that they werent ready to make the run THIS YEAR and blackwood could not be resigned. But now, the ret of this year is the dry run for next year. Its the tryout of Mukh, and like some others, and the last tank job year.

The goal next year cannot be to finish 10th worst. It may happen, but the goal has to be playoffs. I cannot imagine the goal being another bottom 5 year.

 

[sampler]

I don't think it would be smart, but if someone came knocking with a sweetheart deal I. would be surprised if Grier said no. Either way I would be shocked if Walman is a part of this squad in two years time.


I'm gonna let you guess where Edmonton was in GA/GF the year prior (hint, it wasn't 8th).

I would add, Askarov may likely to be a big part of any such improvement. And I would bet Walman is a shark for the next 7 years. Of course, that 100% depends on how the '25-26 season goes, if it goes well, Walman extends 5 years through ages 30-35. In that time, mukh, Cags, Dick and Pohlcamp all get NHL looks and 2 of them emerge as top 4 Dmen, allowing Walman's last 2-3 years to be a more middle six role while Dickinson, at age 23, is ready for the big time.

BTW, the sharks goals against will fall next year as goaltending improves, Wars' system gets inculcated in, and we add some talent on the back end. With our tandem riht now, however, it's open season

p.s.: the sharks are about a half goal per game less agaisnt this season than last year, so the improvement is already becoming clear. More importantly, in my eyes, the GFA is up .56 goals per game over last year. On net, that's over a goal per game better. What a difference! And since the first 9 games, the sharks goal differential in the last 25 games is just -8. Still negative, but not by much and -7 of that is just the single tampa game.

 

[JoeThorntonsRooster]

I don't think it would be smart, but if someone came knocking with a sweetheart deal I. would be surprised if Grier said no. Either way I would be shocked if Walman is a part of this squad in two years time.


I'm gonna let you guess where Edmonton was in GA/GF the year prior (hint, it wasn't 8th).

Do you seriously see us finishing anywhere near 8th in goals against next year?

 

[TheBeard]

Do you seriously see us finishing anywhere near 8th in goals against next year?

It's impossible to say one way or another but anything is possible. If Askarov is as good as advertised. If Grier goes big fish hunting in the offseason for a D man. If one of Shakir or Dickinson or Thompson steps up. One less year of Ruuta and Thrun probably buried in the minors... it wouldn't be that hard to significantly upgrade the D core into a more than passable unit without sacrificing much of the future. It's not like there was a dramatic improvement in Edmonton. Talbot was the same goalie and the only significant difference on the blue line was the addition of Adam Larsson.

 

[matt trick]

Not saying Grier should aim for 10th, but it's what I'd be forecasting to Hasso. NJ finished 10th with Hughes, Hischier, Bratt, Meier, Mercer, L. Hughes, Marino, Siegenthaler, and Nemec. They did lose Hamilton to injury, and had mediocre goaltending, but that forward core was loaded.

I'm fine with Grier adding elite talent- Rantanen, Meier, Ehlers- provided it doesn't f*** up the cap, which it very likely would. I'm not fine with pulling a Toronto and bringing in a guy to be your 2nd-4th best forward and paying him elite player rate in their declining years. Excluding Ekblad (who we'd likely need to outspend FLA by $2M/yr, due to the 7v8 yr limit, tax, and competitor/up and comer) how many sure fire top 4 d-men available?

RHD:
Pionk- He'll either get paid by Winnipeg or be a 30 year (34-37 as Celebrini hits his prime) old who gets a $7-8M, and may require more in SJ.
Provorov- On ice fit, possible culture concerns, may be re-signed by CBJ
Kovacevic- I think this would be a great pickup. 28 years old, 6'4 very good defensively, but no track record prior to the past 2 months. Risk $4-5M on a guy with one good year? I trust our pro scouting.
Fabbro- passed on waivers, but maybe with no Ceci we'd be interested. Think CBJ and Fabbro keep their new thing going

Third pair
Borgen/Ceci- Failing Kovacevic, I hope one of these guys is suiting up for us next year in a third pair role. Borgen is years younger and not a whole lot of games on his body.

LHD
Gavrikov, Chychrun- expected to re-sign, both LHD
Petterson- left handed defensive D. Upgrade on Ferraro, probably gets $5-6M offers, and may require more in SJ


At F, Ehlers and Bennett are the only guys I like better than Granny who won't cost $10M (Ehlers may be close).

p.s. sorry about the font.

 

[Cas]

Finding productive guys for cheap is never a problem. There are always going to be Kreiders and Matt Duschene type guys that still have worth yet have contracts that hurt contenders more than they would us. Hell trade for Charlie Coyle and his cap hit for this year and next. Hell trade for Matt Barzal. My point is, while not realistic for some, there are a ton of guys who are available through channels beyond FA.

Other than Barzal, these are all middle six or bottom six guys, not the sort of people we actually need to be competitive, and all older.

Yes, there are tons of guys available through trade, but few or none of them are the impact players we need.

 

[Pinkfloyd]

Edmonton finished 8th in goals against that season; that wasn’t because of McDavid.

We’re currently 29th in GA/GP and would need to allow 0.7 fewer per game in order to be 8th. It would take a massive improvement both defensively and in goal for us to get there next year. I don’t see that just happening.

I agree it would need to be massive. I do think the potential to do so is there with the right moves but what those moves may be is up for debate. In net, going from Blackwood/Vanecek to Askarov/??? could improve the goaltending to a sufficient level if the defense makes some strides as well. That part is definitely up in the air and will depend a lot on what we see out of this team to finish this season. If Mukhamadullin establishes himself as someone they think they can develop into something beyond a 3rd pairing guy, getting him the right partner next year can do a lot of good. If he can position himself to be a 2nd pairing guy with someone like Liljegren who can take most of the puck-handling aspects of being a defenseman off his plate while he learns to defend at the NHL level can make him a passable 2nd pairing guy to make someone like Ferraro expendable. If Dickinson is going to make the team next year because he made that much progress then finding a suitable veteran partner on the 3rd pairing is probably more important for the rebuild than finding a replacement for Ceci to partner with Walman.

 

[matt trick]

BTW, to those saying that we should NOT go shopping next summer, what do you propose to do with all our cap space? Depending on how much the cap rises, the sharks could have 35M+ in space going into the next year. the only material RFA resigns needed would be zetterlund and Kovalenko (mukh will be a QO basically and Kostin is also largely irrelevant, as he will be very cheap). Kovy should get no more than 3, and zetterlund no more than 5 I would think. So, nearly 30M left over?

What would you suggest?

(btw, rather than target a big fish, they could do more wennberg, Dyllandrea, Grundstrom like deals of 2 years for mid/bottom 6 forwards or practical mid pairing D like Ceci. This is a less risky course of action and allows more cap flexibility going forward, but it also leaves the team just short, kinda like they are now.) Roslovic, Gaudette, Appleton types may be out there for those kind of deals, but do they put you over the top? I think we saw with dylandrea and grundstrom that adding more depth forwards isnt gunna do it...)

Kind of covered above, but:

DL- Consider moving Granlund, Ceci, and Kunin for value at the deadline. Trade Sturm and Rutta if offer made. Move Thrun once Muk takes his spot.
Draft- Hopefully get top 4 pick, take any of those four happily.

1. Sign Zetts (6 years $4M per) and Kovalenko (3 years $2-2.5M depending on performance with Celebrini).
2. Sign one of Kovacevic/Borgen for 4 years $4M per.
3. Try and get Eklund on an 8 year contract for less than Guenther.
4. Check in on Ehlers/Bennett openess to joining San Jose
5. If Granlund was moved at deadline offer him 3x$8M or 4x$7M to come back. If we get a 1st for him, it's worth it to overpay by $1M to bring him back. Failing that (and Ehlers and Bennett) check in on Gourde, Fabbri, Vatrano, but I'd prefer the first three options by a country mile.
6. Sign whichever goalie our braintrust tells me to to platoon with Askarov.
7. Trade 2nds (ours, Colorados, future 2nds, deadline seconds) for a RHD. A Granlund earned 1st for the right player. Musty, Bystedt, Muk also available for the right player. I don't think said right player will be traded.

Eklund-Celebrini-Kovalenko (2.5)
(4.5) Zetterlund-Smith-Tofolli
(4) Fabbri-Wennberg-Graf (or Gush other kid)
Goody-Delly-Cardwell
Grundstrom

Walman-Trade (5M)
Dickinson-Kovacevic/Borgen (4)
Ferraro-Liljigren
Thrun/Muk
LTIRetired

Askarov
Vet (2.5)

Join at the deadline: Bystedt (Wennberg), Cagnoni/Thompson (Liljigren), Muk (Ferraro).

Contracts that go into Y2 of Celebrini, Smith, Askarov's next deals: Dickinson ELC, Eklund, Zetterlund, Borgen/Kovacevic, RHD Trade, and maybe Granlund or UFA forward. Tofolli and Kovalenko will go into Y1.

 

[Cas]

Love this post, Cas. I think it illustrates exactly how close we actually are.

You have three top liners (that's how a top line works). You have 7 middle six guys (recognize the middle six and bottom six overlap on the third line . I think kunin and sturm do not qualify as potentail 2nd or 3rd line but I think the other 5 do (Toffoli, Zetterlund, Kovalenko, Smith, and Wennberg). That's eight top 9 forwards. Hence, why I wrote that we need just one more top 6 forward, preferably an actual top line forward (plus resign granny)

I also agree that kovalenko and Askarov are question marks. We dont know if Kovy will retain top 6 status. We also dont know if Askarov will be able to handle the starting role well.

However, if we choose NOT to go out and acquire more talent outside the draft, the team may be mired in rebuild mode forever, adding one or two good young players each year. Remember ELC years are the key here: they give you potential top production at league min prices for 3 years. if you squander ELC years for too long, you end up having to pay these young guns (like eklund or celly) big money before you even are competitive and cannot afford good vet talent to compliment them.

Celly costs 1M per year the next two years. If you squander those years in full rebuild mode (trade away all vet talent for assets, and dont go after any quality vets in UFA), then when the time comes to actually go for it, Celly will cost you double digit millions. Instead, take that cap savings for the next two years and get a top line forward! Same goes for ek, smith, dick when he makes it, and '25 top pick. Take those 1M ELC values and SPEND on a top line D, if you can. I can see how in years 4 or 5 of that vet contract, the cap crunch issue might come in as the kids get their big $$ but the vet $$ is still there. As such, be sure you do not splurge too much. 1 top line F, 1 top line D. Thats it. All other deals should be no more than 2-3 years (like Wennberg's, Dyl, Grundstrom, or walman.) Then, you can complete for the PO's during the kids' ELC years, and then as they need a raise, cooch and pickles and the salary retention hits come off, and you only have a few big $$ aging vets on the roster.

I think the young talent acquisition phase ends with the '25 draft. This coming summer should be the PO run mode (step one to the cup run mode). BTW, Grier did just that this past year adding Toffoli, Wennberg, Walman, Ceci, Liljgren, Askarov, and Kovalenko (and to a lesser degree dylandrea and grundstrom, who I think Grier hoped would be better). Thats 1/3 of your roster in addition to celebrini and Smith internally. So, figure maybe two more internal grads (Mukh/Dick/Pohlcamp/Cagnoni/Thompson/Thrun fighting for a spot) and (bystedt, Musty, haltunnen, Graf, Gushkin also pushing for a spot), and two more top quality vets is the goal by next October. Totally possible and fits well in the cap structure for now and going forward.

Note: It would be a major error to trade future assets currently in system to win now. Moving non-central assets like Gush or Bordy is fine, but I would be totally against trading any of the top 5-10 prospects or any major draft capital to add near term talent. This is NOT the phase of rentals or "Cup or Bust", but it is time to continue adding quality talent to the room.

My point is that we are not close.

Wennberg does not belong on a second line, and can center a mediocre third line, but if he's the play driver on that line, it's an outright bad third line. He's also getting older. Toffoli is getting older and will soon be playing himself down to third-line status (frankly, he might be there now) and not long after that, might be playing himself out of the league (remember, the end tends to come fast for middling guys, and Toffoli has always been a middling guy - I expect this is his retirement contract).

We can kind of put together a good top line, but it's got one guy who doesn't belong unless we overload Eklund-Celebrini-Smith and they all develop into legitimate first line players by next year. Then we don't have a 2C worth a damn, though (I wouldn't bet a dime that Granlund is here next year) and our second line will be a joke.

Not having your best players on ELCs, but on their initial RFA contracts, is not a problem, because you need much more than just a couple of star players. Ideally, you're continuing to draft well and filling in the roster with even younger players on ELCs who can complement your young stars making $8-12 million. You do not sign older, expensive, forwards to fill out those top six roles. Ideally, Celebrini, Smith, and Eklund are playing with some 2025, 2026, or 2027 draftees who are on their ELCs. That's how you prevent a cap crunch, not trying to jumpstart things too early and paying Mitch Marner $14 million.

If we try and compete for the playoffs in 2026, we're going to fall 15 points short and blow a lot of draft and trade and cap space capital we will need to actually compete in 2028, when we hopefully are ready.

 

[JoeThorntonsRooster]

I agree it would need to be massive. I do think the potential to do so is there with the right moves but what those moves may be is up for debate. In net, going from Blackwood/Vanecek to Askarov/??? could improve the goaltending to a sufficient level if the defense makes some strides as well. That part is definitely up in the air and will depend a lot on what we see out of this team to finish this season. If Mukhamadullin establishes himself as someone they think they can develop into something beyond a 3rd pairing guy, getting him the right partner next year can do a lot of good. If he can position himself to be a 2nd pairing guy with someone like Liljegren who can take most of the puck-handling aspects of being a defenseman off his plate while he learns to defend at the NHL level can make him a passable 2nd pairing guy to make someone like Ferraro expendable. If Dickinson is going to make the team next year because he made that much progress then finding a suitable veteran partner on the 3rd pairing is probably more important for the rebuild than finding a replacement for Ceci to partner with Walman.

My post was in response to a guy who said it might just take a player or two and used Edmonton as an example. And I'm saying that's not a reasonable example because, as your post seems to show, it'll take more than just a player or two for us to get anywhere near 8th in GA. And it would take some generous developmental outcomes from Dickinson, Askarov, and Mukahamadullin.

 

[TheBeard]

Other than Barzal, these are all middle six or bottom six guys, not the sort of people we actually need to be competitive, and all older.

Yes, there are tons of guys available through trade, but few or none of them are the impact players we need.

If we're talking about next year on then I don't necessarily know if we need real impact players so much as just guys in the Toffoli range who can alleviate some of the offensive pressures off the actual impact guys. I think if Granlund isn't back we'll need a 3C (or maybe even a 2C depending on how the team views Smith). Beyond that bringing in guys like Kreider or a Trent Frederic or a Vatrano in the offseason aren't guys that will kill us longterm.

 

[TheBeard]

My post was in response to a guy who said it might just take a player or two and used Edmonton as an example. And I'm saying that's not a reasonable example because, as your post seems to show, it'll take more than just a player or two for us to get anywhere near 8th in GA. And it would take some generous developmental outcomes from Dickinson, Askarov, and Mukahamadullin.

I would like to know who the major difference makers were Edmonton brought in in 2016-17 from the past few years prior where they were bottom 5 in GAA for basically half a decade straight because if you ask me 90% of it was the advanced development of their two 20 year old superstars. The rest of the team was absolute garbage. 2016-17 Edmonton Oilers Roster, Stats, Injuries, Scores, Results, Shootouts | Hockey-Reference.com

Granted, they took a step back the following year for a couple seasons, but the point still stands.

 

[JoeThorntonsRooster]

I would like to know who the major difference makers were Edmonton brought in in 2016-17 from the past few years prior where they were bottom 5 in GAA for basically half a decade straight because if you ask me 90% of it was the advanced development of their two 20 year old superstars. The rest of the team was absolute garbage. 2016-17 Edmonton Oilers Roster, Stats, Injuries, Scores, Results, Shootouts | Hockey-Reference.com

Granted, they took a step back the following year for a couple seasons, but the point still stands.

You’re seriously arguing that advanced development from McDavid and Draisaitl are the reason that they turned it around defensively?

 

[TheBeard]

You’re seriously arguing that advanced development from McDavid and Draisaitl are the reason that they turned it around defensively?

Most of it was because Talbot had a career year. Even got first place votes on enroute to finishing 4th in Vezina voting.