GDT: Game 34: Columbus at Winnipeg | 12/29 8PM

[major major]

Agree, some struggles in our own end.

Partly attributable to rookie mistakes.

Partly attributable our own extraordinary expectations - In comparison, I could not believe how HORRIBLE Doughty looked at the end of the LA-EDM game last night with the game on the line, but he's still THE man in many books.

But to me I see it mostly as a rookie running into the wall. My perception is that ZW is physically tired AND emotionally spent for the moment. He has already played an entire NCAA season before NYE. Mentally he sees 48 more regular season games and playoffs in front of him, and the 14-game streak has him on playoff alert status, when really it is just game 35 tomorrow night. He has had loads of responsibility put on him (and I'm ok with that). He's 18/19 traveling with guys 5-10 years older over the holidays. His best attribute is confidence, quiet swagger, aggressive offensive play. Being aggressive offensively is his best defense. But when a player is tired, the tendency is to be less aggressive, thinking that is the best way to avoid the apopalyptic mistake. Which usually ends up with several smaller mistakes, some of which end up in the back of your own net (or Bob bailing us out).

No blame, and not suggesting that he sit for a game or two.... He will find his legs (and spirit) soon enough, HCJT will throw him out there at the end of games when he does, and he will have much success, along with a few failures. This up and down process will likely repeat another cycle or two until playoffs (I feel like Linus in the Pumpkin Patch talking about the Great Pumpkin, but 54 points before 2016 is swept out the door is just insane compared to our expectations for this season). The key will be getting ZW (and others) humming on both counts just as playoffs arrive. Long way to go, he will be fine. We are not going to go 48-0, nor do we need to.

But I would really like 15 tomorrow night!!!!! !

We need Zach at his best for the playoffs. I'd rather he was playing 12 minutes a night for a couple months on the third pair. That should afford him more energy and focus.

 

[TheTechNoir]

Flyers fan really excited for this match here with a question for y'all.

How much of this is Torts? OBVIOUSLY there is SOME 'luck' or 'sustainability' here, but I am not at all saying that IS what it is, or that this is a case like Colorado when they won their division a few years ago, etc. I do NOT think that is the case.

In fact, last season, I expected them to contend for a division title and be a strong playoff team, though perhaps not a cup contender, or, favourite to be sure.

I was really disappointed with their season obviously.

How much and what has changed? I will assume that 'luck' 'sustainable results' perhaps hurt them a bit last year, and is helping them a bit this year, but I am not chalking it up to mostly that or anywhere close like I would with some teams.

I also have trouble believing it is all Torts, but heck, coaching changes have had some pretty unbelievable results; I wonder how PIT would've done last year without a coach change? Crosby? Who knows.

Did injuries play a big role? Obviously the emergence of Werenski and some other prospects continuing to develop. Who are the biggest reasons in terms of +/- of what's changed from last year. Who has elevated, has any one regressed?

Is there any fearfulness that Torts' style is too demanding and would hurt/break/run the team down in a protracted playoff run? I personally feel as though that happened a bit to NYR in their final (I believe it was a finals appearance) run. Thanks.

PS: 17th page GDT thread in a 'smaller' market team, a day out from the event, with active posting within the last hour... Very cool, congrats; I think it is safe to say this is the most significant or 'big' regular season game of the season. If it ends up an epic game or very close game, or has some sort of iconic heroics involved, it'll probably go down as one of the more remarkable or memorable games of the decade.

 

[Byrral]

Flyers fan really excited for this match here with a question for y'all.

How much of this is Torts? OBVIOUSLY there is SOME 'luck' or 'sustainability' here, but I am not at all saying that IS what it is, or that this is a case like Colorado when they won their division a few years ago, etc. I do NOT think that is the case.

In fact, last season, I expected them to contend for a division title and be a strong playoff team, though perhaps not a cup contender, or, favourite to be sure.

I was really disappointed with their season obviously.

How much and what has changed? I will assume that 'luck' 'sustainable results' perhaps hurt them a bit last year, and is helping them a bit this year, but I am not chalking it up to mostly that or anywhere close like I would with some teams.

I also have trouble believing it is all Torts, but heck, coaching changes have had some pretty unbelievable results; I wonder how PIT would've done last year without a coach change? Crosby? Who knows.

Did injuries play a big role? Obviously the emergence of Werenski and some other prospects continuing to develop. Who are the biggest reasons in terms of +/- of what's changed from last year. Who has elevated, has any one regressed?

Is there any fearfulness that Torts' style is too demanding and would hurt/break/run the team down in a protracted playoff run? I personally feel as though that happened a bit to NYR in their final (I believe it was a finals appearance) run. Thanks.

PS: 17th page GDT thread in a 'smaller' market team, a day out from the event, with active posting within the last hour... Very cool, congrats; I think it is safe to say this is the most significant or 'big' regular season game of the season. If it ends up an epic game or very close game, or has some sort of iconic heroics involved, it'll probably go down as one of the more remarkable or memorable games of the decade.

This is a loaded question but I will give it a go and let others follow as they wish:

Torts deserve's a lot of credit for guiding the players on what it takes to be a professional hockey player (eliminated Country Club Columbus). He has instilled a work ethic of being the best you can be each and every day and trying to get better than you were yesterday. He has put his foot down on under performing players without making it personal. The players have respected that. I will also give him credit for giving the assistant coaches responsibilities and letting them do their jobs and jumping in when he feels the need. He has changed the way the team plays. He has also allowed our young players to play their game and make mistakes without feeling like they are going to feel his wrath. They attack the puck in all zones and the defense is jumping up into the play without sacrificing the defensive end. He has for the most part calmed down without losing his intensity.

But so many other things have gone into this seasons success than Torts alone. The players buying into and adhering to a disciplined off-season conditioning program, Torts familiarity with the players and a full training camp, the Seth Jones trade and the addition of Werenski allowing the defense (Savard, JMFJ) to be slotted into roles more suited to their play, cutting the dead weight from the roster, the infusion of several rookies into the lineup, the Sam Gagner signing, Nick Foligno's play on the ice and his role as captain, several players (Wennberg, Atkinson, etc.) having career years or making leaps from past performance, Bob in Vezina form and the luck this team has finally got in terms of injuries.

The players are tired of losing all the time and wanted to earn some respect in the league and give the fans something to be proud of. The streak and the record are surely unsustainable but work ethic and pride are. Let them get to the playoffs before worrying about how much they have left in the tank. This young team needs the experience the playoffs offer not have expectations of winning the CUP (although that would be welcomed ).

There are probably more things I have forgotten but these are many of the things that have gone right this year. They have a young team so who knows whether the trend continues upward over the next several years or flatlines. It looks like there is depth in the organization now, the drafting and development seems better and there's a chance to keep it moving forward over time. You use the word luck and I will say all of these things falling into place is definitely lucky. After many long years it's about time.

The players have bought into what Torts is preaching so far and have had some success. Let's see what happens when adversity hits, or some injuries, or a losing streak or Torts being Torts. The future is up in the air with him. Every coach has a shelf life. Torts seems to have a life shorter than others. We will see what the future holds with him.

 

[abs94]

Torts has played a big role but i believe its has very little to do with hockey. He's making them accountable. They work hard as hell. With the mix of hard nosed vets and talented youngsters everyone has seem to buy in. I dont believe that he's making a Camry a Corvette rather a Corvette was in the garage, it just needed a lot of hard work put into it. How long Torts will last here is a huge question, i dont know how long a group of people can take his relentess intensity. Right now, everyone is in the honeymoon stage. This is the first time people havent just wanted to sneak into the playoffs so fans dont seem to be worried. The answer to the question probably depends on how Torts reacts when puck luck goes wrong or when the team goes through a rough 5 game stretch. If he just rides the players ***** then they'll get tired of him but if he reacts a reasonable way, he should be able to keep the room. However, it Torts the dude seems like a total fireball. Im a hockey novice but thats my take.

As far as players, nearly everyone is meeting or exceeding expectations. Werenski was better than expecting by a huge margin. Jones has been a solid #1 D. Bobs became top 5 goalie not sucky Bobs. Foligno lost weight and came prepared. Wennberg is a powerplay monster and a solid #1 C. .Savard and Jack Johnson are the best +/- guys defensively they've been studs. Everyone else has been rocks and found positive ways to contribute. Everyone underplayed the talent here, no superstars, nothing crazy sexy just a top tier goalie, crazy talented D, and a mix of grinders and talented forwards.

 

[blahblah]

Torts seems to have a life shorter than others. We will see what the future holds with him.

Is 12 seasons with 2 teams until that short stint with Vancouver count as short shelf life compared to other head coaches?

 

[jdhebner]

This sure beats waiting for the first win

 

[Cyclones Rock]

Is 12 seasons with 2 teams until that short stint with Vancouver count as short shelf life compared to other head coaches?

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/pdisplay.php?pid=5440

Great point. He lasted 6 years with Tampa and 4+ years with the NYR. He was an assistant for 6 years with Buffalo.

The notion that Tortorella is some madman who burns himself through teams rapidly is a media narrative which doesn't seem to stand up to scrutiny. He's not a flatliner who shows no emotion and he has the temerity to go after media punks like Brooks in New York. That doesn't endear him to the arrogant media which demands that those who deal with them behave to their code of conduct (which means subservience) at all times or they collectively label the "offender" defective.

 

[major major]

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/pdisplay.php?pid=5440

Great point. He lasted 6 years with Tampa and 4+ years with the NYR. He was an assistant for 6 years with Buffalo.

The notion that Tortorella is some madman who burns himself through teams rapidly is a media narrative which doesn't seem to stand up to scrutiny. He's not a flatliner who shows no emotion and he has the temerity to go after media punks like Brooks in New York. That doesn't endear him to the arrogant media which demands that those who deal with them behave to their code of conduct (which means subservience) at all times.

I don't think they'd take it half as personally if there weren't comments like "did you get beat up a lot as a kid?" People from all walks of life consider that a wrong way to treat someone.

And Torts wouldn't be here if he was still like that. His career would be over if he didn't change his ways.

 

[Cyclones Rock]

I don't think they'd take it half as personally if there weren't comments like "did you get beat up a lot as a kid?" People from all walks of life consider that a wrong way to treat someone.

And Torts wouldn't be here if he was still like that. His career would be over if he didn't change his ways.

Brooks is a punk. Torts got sick of him. Proper treatment of people is a two-way street. "Did you get beat up as a kid?" is hardly an over-the-top statement.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ThauaVszC5A



To the bolded: If true, that speaks more of the shortcomings of those who make hockey personnel decisions than Torts. He obviously knows how to coach effectively.


I'm not saying that Torts isn't better served by better self restraint: he certainly is. But there's a time and a place for everything and that includes not tolerating boorish media behavior.

 

[Byrral]

Is 12 seasons with 2 teams until that short stint with Vancouver count as short shelf life compared to other head coaches?

Meh. Maybe I could have worded it better and said the players seem to tune him out quicker. So whatever. He reminds me of a nicer version of Billy Martin in the way that he sometimes rubs people the wrong way.

 

[Byrral]

Wrong thread.

 

[antiqueslivers]

Damn you guys, your team is amazing! Hats off to yus.

 

[TheTechNoir]

This is a loaded question but I will give it a go and let others follow as they wish:

Torts deserve's a lot of credit for guiding the players on what it takes to be a professional hockey player (eliminated Country Club Columbus). He has instilled a work ethic of being the best you can be each and every day and trying to get better than you were yesterday. He has put his foot down on under performing players without making it personal. The players have respected that. I will also give him credit for giving the assistant coaches responsibilities and letting them do their jobs and jumping in when he feels the need. He has changed the way the team plays. He has also allowed our young players to play their game and make mistakes without feeling like they are going to feel his wrath. They attack the puck in all zones and the defense is jumping up into the play without sacrificing the defensive end. He has for the most part calmed down without losing his intensity.

But so many other things have gone into this seasons success than Torts alone. The players buying into and adhering to a disciplined off-season conditioning program, Torts familiarity with the players and a full training camp, the Seth Jones trade and the addition of Werenski allowing the defense (Savard, JMFJ) to be slotted into roles more suited to their play, cutting the dead weight from the roster, the infusion of several rookies into the lineup, the Sam Gagner signing, Nick Foligno's play on the ice and his role as captain, several players (Wennberg, Atkinson, etc.) having career years or making leaps from past performance, Bob in Vezina form and the luck this team has finally got in terms of injuries.

The players are tired of losing all the time and wanted to earn some respect in the league and give the fans something to be proud of. The streak and the record are surely unsustainable but work ethic and pride are. Let them get to the playoffs before worrying about how much they have left in the tank. This young team needs the experience the playoffs offer not have expectations of winning the CUP (although that would be welcomed ).

There are probably more things I have forgotten but these are many of the things that have gone right this year. They have a young team so who knows whether the trend continues upward over the next several years or flatlines. It looks like there is depth in the organization now, the drafting and development seems better and there's a chance to keep it moving forward over time. You use the word luck and I will say all of these things falling into place is definitely lucky. After many long years it's about time.

The players have bought into what Torts is preaching so far and have had some success. Let's see what happens when adversity hits, or some injuries, or a losing streak or Torts being Torts. The future is up in the air with him. Every coach has a shelf life. Torts seems to have a life shorter than others. We will see what the future holds with him.

Thanks a million man for taking a good stab at such a detail/info requesting/driven question!

Yeah, I really hope Columbus makes as deep as a playoff run as possible for experience, and is able to build on this season, kind of like last year I was thinking they would do more akin to this year, and this year be building on last.

I hope Torts pans out over time, too.

And TBF, yeah, his stint being short with VAN, definitely made sense to me. I didn't think NYR could win the cup with Torts, because he was breaking that team... Playing playoff finals hockey in the first month of the season. Vancouver's players seemed a lot less tailored to Torts' style in my mind, and I thought it was a bad choice.



Do you have any criticisms of the team, besides the obvious that certain things aren't 100% sustainable (don't take it wrong, like I am trying to hammer that point down or anything, I'm not)? Any noticeable flaws at the moment, or what you feel are flaws that haven't been exposed yet, or they have been able to avoid dealing with, but seem to be a matter of time?

For example: When Philly was on their win streak (CBJ is def a better team than Philly right now imo, btw), their top-6 fwds, #1 D, teen rookie as he is, and their starting goalie were all playing at their very best. Their terrible defensive deficiencies weren't being exposed bad enough, but I knew that it was a massive weakness and it was a matter of time before things started swinging back against them.

Do you feel Columbus has any particular weaknesses that still need addressing?

 

[Byrral]

Do you have any criticisms of the team, besides the obvious that certain things aren't 100% sustainable (don't take it wrong, like I am trying to hammer that point down or anything, I'm not)? Any noticeable flaws at the moment, or what you feel are flaws that haven't been exposed yet, or they have been able to avoid dealing with, but seem to be a matter of time?

Do you feel Columbus has any particular weaknesses that still need addressing?

I don't know how anyone could have many criticisms right now . They have have gone far above my expectations so far. But I would have a lot of criticism if they were to collapse and miss the playoffs

Being objective there are a couple of things of concern to me:

Werenski, as good as he has been, has been playing a lot of minutes as a #2D and has played more games than what he's used to playing coming out of NCAA. Teams have focused on him more and are getting much more physical with him. Many have suggested lowering and sheltering his minutes for a while to keep him fresh for the playoff grind. I agree.

Can Bob stay healthy. If he goes down there is no way McElhinney (he's been good in his limited playing time) or our two goalies in Cleveland (limited NHL experience) can do what Bob does for this team. If they do make the playoffs and Bob is healthy he will have to be way better than his previous playoff performances.

As a team they don't win a lot of faceoffs. Dubinsky is the only guy that can win more than he loses but he isn't a faceoff monster. Wennberg has made improvements but him and the rest are a work in progress at best. At some point it's going to end up costing them.

Dubinsky and Jenner have to start producing more on the scoreboard. Their effort is not in question but if others run into a scoring slump they will need to pick up the slack. They also have an affect on Atkinson's 5on5 scoring.

The team has avoided injuries and adversity. How does the team react when these things happen because it is inevitable.

As a team and individually they have been playing above what most thought they were capable of. They will regress. The question is where they land after the fall and how they deal with that correction.

They have been playing pretty relentless hockey. How much of this can continue throughout the remainder of the season and how much will they have left in the tank if/when they get to the playoffs.

There's probably more but that's all I got. Have to wait to see where they are closer to the trade deadline to see if they bring in some help for a possible deeper push.

It's been a good year so far. My expectations have not changed. Make the playoffs and go from there. I'm sure others have some different thoughts and expectations. I'm just enjoying the ride right now.

 

[Bobcat110]

Do you feel Columbus has any particular weaknesses that still need addressing?

Their biggest weakness is their youth. They are the youngest team in the league, which sometimes can translate to "fragile" in adversity. I think they had that last year at start of the year. A couple bad goals allowed in first couple games and they fell apart to an 0-8 start. This is where I think Torts really has them tuned in now, to have confidence in their play and to turn them loose saying "it's OK to make a mistake if you're playing aggressive. It's not OK to play scared." They've faced some game situations that they could've fell apart on, but instead, responded positively. For example, in Edmonton, the Oilers were awarded a 4 minute power play when an Oiler was high sticked by his own teammate. CBJ responded by killing the 4 minutes and then blowing out the Oilers.

Their youth is also why a lot of people expect some huge regression because: "they don't have any generational players" or "Elite talent" or "Future Hall of Famers". Really, they are too young to make that declaration IMO. They have FOUR defensemen who were drafted in the Top 8 overall of their respective draft classes. The average age of their Top 6 D-men is 23.5 years old with a 19 year-old killing it on the 1st PP Unit.

I think they have a pretty nice core of young forwards coming up now too. Saad (24), Wennberg (22), Jenner (23), Karlsson (23), and Anderson (22) to compliment the veterans of Foligno, Atkinson, Calvert, Dubinsky, Hartnell and Gagner.

Even if they regress, as seems to be the regular beatdown given by skeptics, I would think that even toughest skeptics can't say this team is a league bottom dweller anymore with expectation this young team will continue to mature and are learning what it takes to win regularly in this league. Their shot percentage may come down, but I really don't see a huge regression during the remaining regular season as their corsi/fenwick should continue to rise. They've pretty much played 1/2 their schedule against Top 10 corsi close teams like LA, SJ, BOS, MON, STL, WAS, DAL and EDM. They're pretty much done with most of those teams, so with less possession heavy teams and maturity, they should get more SOGs to offset a drop in shot percentages.

Also nice is that they only have one Free Agent this summer, Sam Gagner, so they will be able to concentrate the offseason on other things than contract disputes.

 

[TheTechNoir]

This is where I think Torts really has them tuned in now, to have confidence in their play and to turn them loose saying "it's OK to make a mistake if you're playing aggressive. It's not OK to play scared." They've faced some game situations that they could've fell apart on, but instead, responded positively.

Their youth is also why a lot of people expect some huge regression because: "they don't have any generational players"

They have FOUR defensemen who were drafted in the Top 8 overall of their respective draft classes. The average age of their Top 6 D-men is 23.5 years old with a 19 year-old killing it on the 1st PP Unit.

I think they have a pretty nice core of young forwards coming up now too. Saad (24), Wennberg (22), Jenner (23), Karlsson (23), and Anderson (22) to compliment the veterans

Even if they regress,
toughest skeptics can't say this team is a league bottom dweller anymore

Also nice is that they only have one Free Agent this summer, Sam Gagner, so they will be able to concentrate the offseason on other things than contract disputes.

I cut some parts out, just for scrolling reasons, not to diminish them. Team mentality, morale, and accountability but not at the risk of fear/over-safe play is really important.

That is definitely a nice core of young fwds, and they are proving what they can be potentially capable of. Will they all totally pan out? Impossible to say for sure, but, they are proving that they can potentially do it, which is a lot more meaningful than a prospect with no NHL experience who is supposed to be good.

Absolutely. This team is not like Colorado was. I feel that from top to bottom, the entire team is CAPABLE (will they? remains to be seen) of playing well at their roles, and with each other. That is a lot more than Philly could say. Some have proven they are capable, some have even proven they can be ELITE and play VERY well together, but players like VandeVelde and AMac cannot and will not be good, in any respectable role, ever, period. A few game outliers maybe, but no type of regularity. Injury adjustments aside, I don't feel this is a problem with the CBJ roster.

Werenski, as good as he has been, has been playing a lot of minutes as a #2D and has played more games than what he's used to playing coming out of NCAA. Teams have focused on him more and are getting much more physical with him. Many have suggested lowering and sheltering his minutes for a while to keep him fresh for the playoff grind. I agree.

Can Bob stay healthy. If he goes down there is no way McElhinney (he's been good in his limited playing time) or our two goalies in Cleveland (limited NHL experience) can do what Bob does for this team. If they do make the playoffs and Bob is healthy he will have to be way better than his previous playoff performances.

As a team they don't win a lot of faceoffs. Dubinsky is the only guy that can win more than he loses but he isn't a faceoff monster. Wennberg has made improvements but him and the rest are a work in progress at best. At some point it's going to end up costing them.

Dubinsky and Jenner have to start producing more on the scoreboard. Their effort is not in question but if others run into a scoring slump they will need to pick up the slack. They also have an affect on Atkinson's 5on5 scoring.

They have been playing pretty relentless hockey. How much of this can continue throughout the remainder of the season and how much will they have left in the tank if/when they get to the playoffs.


It's been a good year so far. My expectations have not changed. Make the playoffs and go from there. I'm sure others have some different thoughts and expectations. I'm just enjoying the ride right now.

I feel question marks around Bob too, some of it stemming from his time in Philly. I hope he has a playoff killing spree after a strong year, that will punctuate more than a vezina trophy and playoff struggle.

I think your reserved but pleased/optimistic expectation is a good way to be in this situation.

Jenner has impressed me; but as you say, it helps to see proof and assurance that if they are ever REQUIRED for offensive output, that they are consistently up to the task.

Where do you see Werenski's ceiling? A lot of Flyers fans, not all for sure, but a lot, saw Ghost as a top-pairing or future top-pairing D last season. Personally, I never saw it that way. I also highly disagree with a lot of people, mainly non-flyers fans, who criticized his defensive abilities or talked about him as a very one-dimensional offensive player.

That said, I don't see Ghost's defensive ceiling being as good as his offensive ceiling, one being strong, the other being elite. I see him as best served as a second pairing offensive beast with slightly sheltered minutes on a team that has the depth to most utilize his strengths.

I can appreciate what you are saying in the context of this season. How do you feel about the future? Do you think he is complete enough to be a surefire #1? Or do you think his attributes can be best used in a prominent but sub-#1 role? I'm not comparing Werenski to Ghost in terms of play, style, or strengths, btw. Just scenario and usage.

The keeping it up/relentless thing is what I feel Torts brings, and why I said I hope he doesn't break the team before a deep playoff run could finish, if they made it that far.


Good posts guys, thanks. I wish y'all the greatest of luck. I think CBJ has a really promising future.

 

[Old Guy]

Just my two cents;

Werenski grew up in Gross Point Michigan. He watched lots of Red Wings hockey growing up. He spent hours and hours studying Nic Lidstrom. That was the template he worked from. Of all the comparisons I have read about Werenski, two keep getting mentioned. One and most often is Drew Doughty. The other mentioned the most is Scott Neidermaier.

I'm not certain what your expectations are, but Lidstrom or Neidermaier would be incredible. I guess we could find a way to get by if its "only" Doughty.