GDT: Game 21/82 Sharks @ Blues 7PM CST FDSNMW

Robb_K

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Apr 26, 2007
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Poor coaching.
Especially letting players as old as Schenn stay out there for that long. And we could see how tired Buchnevich was when he had a chance to just reach a loose puck and skate in on goal on a wide breakaway, and was so gassed, a Shark who started behind him, passed him up, while he had to even stop skating completely. That could have been the game sealer.
 

Robb_K

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Apr 26, 2007
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I don't know how to explain it, but on offense Schenn's legs are 30 but on defense Schenn's legs seem 38.
It's a lot harder on the wind and legs on defence when you are adjusting your movements to where the puck carrier and/or the player you are covering are going, causing you to change directions more often, in less fluid movements (taking significantly more energy). Even Buchnevich got exhausted on that 3 minute shift. It's one thing to leave 21-25 or 26 year old star players on the ice too long to give your team a better chance to score. But, both Schenn and Buchnevich have shown fairly early tiring this season. And that long shift could easily have cost The Blues this game.
 

Robb_K

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One bottom dweller playing another

Binnington is the best goalie the Blues ever had… most consistent…standing by it
Did you see Glenn Hall, Curtis Joseph, Mike Liut, or Grant Fuhr play for The Blues? I saw them all (a decent amount in person, and a lot more on TV). I think that during his first 2 years with The Blues Glenn Hall, and Jacques Plante, in his 2 years with The Blues, both played at a higher level than Binnington. I think Binnington has been a little more steady than Joseph, but during Joseph's hot streaks, he had higher highs. If you think that during 2022-23, 2023-24, and this season, The Blues' team defence has really pulled Binnington down, making things difficult, you should have seen the ridiculously porous defences who gave Joseph almost no help at all. The same was true for most of Liut's Blues' career. The NHL game was very different back then. There were many, many more goals scored by ALL teams back when Joseph, Liut, and even Grant Fuhr, were playing for The Blues. I think Hall, Plante and Liut all played better at their heights than Binnington. Maybe Binnington could be lumped in with Joseph and Fuhr, as a second tier. Hall's play for The Blues in 1967-68, and especially the playoffs, was about the best goaltender play I've ever seen. He was instrumental in their first 2 series wins, and almost singlehandedly kept them in all 4 games in The Finals vs. The Canadiens. Even near the age of 40, he was as acrobatic making unbelievable saves, one after another, as good as any goalie I've ever seen play (including Plante's younger days with The Habs, and Terry Sawchuck with The Wings, Johnny Bower with The Leafs, Gump Worsley with The Canadiens, Ken Dryden, Martin Brodeur, Tony Esposito. Jacques Plante in 1968-69 with The Blues was almost unbeatable. Binnington was a lot less consistently great than those 2 at their heights. Hall was also excellent in '68-69. His game fell off some in '69-70, when age caught up with him. But in watching NHL, WHL, WCHL MJHL hockey from about 1950-2024, I can't remember better goaltending play for any season than Plante and Hall in their earliest 2 years with The Blues. Liut was closer to that level than Binnington, and probably Joseph, too. And maybe Binnington could have reached Fuhr's level by now.
 
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BlueMed

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Jul 18, 2019
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The amount of ice time Schenn gets is ridiculous. They need to spread out the minutes to some of the kids. Good for Binner.
Agreed.
TOI tonight...
Schenn 20:30
Holloway 12:13
Bolduc 11:30

I'm not suggesting all 3 play the same minutes, but I would like to see Bolduc get around 14-15 minutes and Holloway get closer to 15-16 minutes on a consistent basis.
 

Majorityof1

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One bottom dweller playing another

Binnington is the best goalie the Blues ever had… most consistent…standing by it

That's why Binnington leads the Blues all-time record for the Blues in win-loss ratio, save percentage, GAA, shutouts...oh wait, no, he doesn't. He got hot at the right time, won a cup, and they have been feeding him a ridiculous number of games since so he got the most wins because he has the 2nd most games played.. But his save percentage as a Blue is tied with Roman Turek and behind Chris Mason.
 

BlueDream

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That's why Binnington leads the Blues all-time record for the Blues in win-loss ratio, save percentage, GAA, shutouts...oh wait, no, he doesn't. He got hot at the right time, won a cup, and they have been feeding him a ridiculous number of games since so he got the most wins because he has the 2nd most games played.. But his save percentage as a Blue is tied with Roman Turek and behind Chris Mason.
Binnington is also playing during an era where scoring is up due to a multitude of reasons, compared to those two. That is the main reason for their save percentages being similar. When Mason and Turek were playing, over half the league wasn’t averaging over 3 GPG.

And especially Turek, he got to play behind a great defensive team that gave up very few shots. That has not been the case for Binnington since 2020.

And the fact that those two only played 2 seasons for the Blues, so the sample sizes aren’t comparable either.

I know you don’t want to give Binner credit for anything, but lets acknowledge the factors here that make that comparison misleading.
 

ChicagoBlues

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Agreed.
TOI tonight...
Schenn 20:30
Holloway 12:13
Bolduc 11:30

I'm not suggesting all 3 play the same minutes, but I would like to see Bolduc get around 14-15 minutes and Holloway get closer to 15-16 minutes on a consistent basis.
Bolduc and Holloway each had a little over 5 minutes of ice time after the 1st period. Both were at 9+ after the 2nd period and then both were effectively benched for old guys.

Bannister is tone deaf. Bad coach.

--

Funny CuJo story: I worked at the Streetside Records in Manchester in 1993. A few days after being eliminated from the playoffs, CuJo came in and walked straight up to me. I shook his hand and said, "f***ing outstanding. You need a better defense." He gave me a cringe look while Stephane Quintal glared down at me with a death stare.

Well, Quintal? Be better and I won't rip you right in front of your goalie! For the record, I don't remember if he was especially atrocious or not.

CuJo bought the Sonia Dada CD, which was one of our best sellers that year.
 

Drubilly

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Bolduc and Holloway each had a little over 5 minutes of ice time after the 1st period. Both were at 9+ after the 2nd period and then both were effectively benched for old guys.

Bannister is tone deaf. Bad coach.

--

Funny CuJo story: I worked at the Streetside Records in Manchester in 1993. A few days after being eliminated from the playoffs, CuJo came in and walked straight up to me. I shook his hand and said, "f***ing outstanding. You need a better defense." He gave me a cringe look while Stephane Quintal glared down at me with a death stare.

Well, Quintal? Be better and I won't rip you right in front of your goalie! For the record, I don't remember if he was especially atrocious or not.

CuJo bought the Sonia Dada CD, which was one of our best sellers that year.
But what did they buy??
 

ChicagoBlues

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But what did they buy??
It is funny. There were several way better options that were out at the time like Smashing Pumpkins ‘Siamese Dream’, Guru’s Jazzmatazz, Clutch’s first EP, Sade ‘Love Deluxe’, Anita Baker put out a stellar record that year. Way better options than Sonia Dada, which was very popular at the time.
 
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MissouriMook

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That's why Binnington leads the Blues all-time record for the Blues in win-loss ratio, save percentage, GAA, shutouts...oh wait, no, he doesn't. He got hot at the right time, won a cup, and they have been feeding him a ridiculous number of games since so he got the most wins because he has the 2nd most games played.. But his save percentage as a Blue is tied with Roman Turek and behind Chris Mason.
Hall, Cujo, and Liut also played here in the era of ties. Since the introduction of OT in the regular season, the average starting goalie probably gets 5-10 more wins per season.
 

Majorityof1

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Mar 6, 2014
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Binnington is also playing during an era where scoring is up due to a multitude of reasons, compared to those two. That is the main reason for their save percentages being similar. When Mason and Turek were playing, over half the league wasn’t averaging over 3 GPG.

And especially Turek, he got to play behind a great defensive team that gave up very few shots. That has not been the case for Binnington since 2020.

And the fact that those two only played 2 seasons for the Blues, so the sample sizes aren’t comparable either.

I know you don’t want to give Binner credit for anything, but lets acknowledge the factors here that make that comparison misleading.

No, I try to give Binnington credit when due. Anytime I advocate trading him. I admit that I know it will make us worse. He is a good goalie, and when he is dialed in, he is an all timer. But best Blues goalie ever with a sub .910 save percentage, no.

He doesn't rank that highly with goalies of his era in these marks either. And while our inability to stop backdoor plays a few seasons hurt him, not to the extent. He is inconsistent in where he falls in hus advanced stats too.

He is 39th in save percentage this year, and it's not cause he is facing prime chances, he has a negative Goals saved above replacement, meaning he's been worse than replacement level this season.

He needs to ride a very fine line with playing with a chip in his shoulder and going on tilt. I just don't think he is consistently great as he can not ride that very fine line for his mental state to stay dialed in.. Cup year, amazing. Last year amazing. The rest of his career, he's been inconsistent.
 

PerryTurnbullfan

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Sep 30, 2006
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Did you see Glenn Hall, Curtis Joseph, Mike Liut, or Grant Fuhr play for The Blues? I saw them all (a decent amount in person, and a lot more on TV). I think that during his first 2 years with The Blues Glenn Hall, and Jacques Plante, in his 2 years with The Blues, both played at a higher level than Binnington. I think Binnington has been a little more steady than Joseph, but during Joseph's hot streaks, he had higher highs. If you think that during 2022-23, 2023-24, and this season, The Blues' team defence has really pulled Binnington down, making things difficult, you should have seen the ridiculously porous defences who gave Joseph almost no help at all. The same was true for most of Liut's Blues' career. The NHL game was very different back then. There were many, many more goals scored by ALL teams back when Joseph, Liut, and even Grant Fuhr, were playing for The Blues. I think Hall, Plante and Liut all played better at their heights than Binnington. Maybe Binnington could be lumped in with Joseph and Fuhr, as a second tier. Hall's play for The Blues in 1967-68, and especially the playoffs, was about the best goaltender play I've ever seen. He was instrumental in their first 2 series wins, and almost singlehandedly kept them in all 4 games in The Finals vs. The Canadiens. Even near the age of 40, he was as acrobatic making unbelievable saves, one after another, as good as any goalie I've ever seen play (including Plante's younger days with The Habs, and Terry Sawchuck with The Wings, Johnny Bower with The Leafs, Gump Worsley with The Canadiens, Ken Dryden, Martin Brodeur, Tony Esposito. Jacques Plante in 1968-69 with The Blues was almost unbeatable. Binnington was a lot less consistently great than those 2 at their heights. Hall was also excellent in '68-69. His game fell off some in '69-70, when age caught up with him. But in watching NHL, WHL, WCHL MJHL hockey from about 1950-2024, I can't remember better goaltending play for any season than Plante and Hall in their earliest 2 years with The Blues. Liut was closer to that level than Binnington, and probably Joseph, too. And maybe Binnington could have reached Fuhr's level by now.
The goalie gear wasn’t feather weight either or near as good or protective.
 

ChicagoBlues

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Oct 24, 2006
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Never heard of em.
I was a little disappointed that CuJo had poor taste in music, but whatever. Sonia Dada, along with 4 Non Blondes and Stone Temple Pilots were our three biggest sellers at that time.

Anyway, congrats to Binny for passing Liut.
 

Celtic Note

Living the dream
Dec 22, 2006
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It is funny. There were several way better options that were out at the time like Smashing Pumpkins ‘Siamese Dream’, Guru’s Jazzmatazz, Clutch’s first EP, Sade ‘Love Deluxe’, Anita Baker put out a stellar record that year. Way better options than Sonia Dada, which was very popular at the time.
Siamese Dream For the win in my book.
 
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Frenzy31

Registered User
May 21, 2003
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Bannister cost the team that game. Just poor game management. At this point, I would put Neighbors up with Thomas and JK. And Buch back with Bolduc and Holloway. Give the kids more time on ice. They seem to be looking better, but not getting enough ice.
 

Robb_K

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Apr 26, 2007
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Bolduc and Holloway each had a little over 5 minutes of ice time after the 1st period. Both were at 9+ after the 2nd period and then both were effectively benched for old guys.

Bannister is tone deaf. Bad coach.

--

Funny CuJo story: I worked at the Streetside Records in Manchester in 1993. A few days after being eliminated from the playoffs, CuJo came in and walked straight up to me. I shook his hand and said, "f***ing outstanding. You need a better defense." He gave me a cringe look while Stephane Quintal glared down at me with a death stare.

Well, Quintal? Be better and I won't rip you right in front of your goalie! For the record, I don't remember if he was especially atrocious or not.

CuJo bought the Sonia Dada CD, which was one of our best sellers that year.
The Blues had mostly weak defences in front of Joseph. And Quintal wasn't very good, as I remember. The Blues were money poor during those days, and even filling out their defensive pairings with a few career AHLers, or WHLers. It was really ugly at times.
 
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BlueOil

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Apr 28, 2010
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Agreed.
TOI tonight...
Schenn 20:30
Holloway 12:13
Bolduc 11:30

I'm not suggesting all 3 play the same minutes, but I would like to see Bolduc get around 14-15 minutes and Holloway get closer to 15-16 minutes on a consistent basis.
it's time for bolduc to go down to the ahl and get top six minutes down there

he's not useful enough in the top 9 this season and not doing much to earn more ice time in my opinion
 
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sfvega

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Apr 20, 2015
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It's a lot harder on the wind and legs on defence when you are adjusting your movements to where the puck carrier and/or the player you are covering are going, causing you to change directions more often, in less fluid movements (taking significantly more energy). Even Buchnevich got exhausted on that 3 minute shift. It's one thing to leave 21-25 or 26 year old star players on the ice too long to give your team a better chance to score. But, both Schenn and Buchnevich have shown fairly early tiring this season. And that long shift could easily have cost The Blues this game.
True. I just keep seeing Schenn get left behind on a simple cutback. He seems stiff defensively. Seems to be entering Backes territory on that end of the ice.

Which is more than a criticism of him than that painfully long shift, which there is no excuse for. That and the OT when most of our guys were gassed. That braindead pass ahead of Buchnevich at the end of another long shift, like he's got burners to turn on. Not to mention the turnover before that. The end of the game there just wasn't any awareness, which starts with that brutal shift at the end of regulation.

It is funny. There were several way better options that were out at the time like Smashing Pumpkins ‘Siamese Dream’, Guru’s Jazzmatazz, Clutch’s first EP, Sade ‘Love Deluxe’, Anita Baker put out a stellar record that year. Way better options than Sonia Dada, which was very popular at the time.
My favorite album of all time.
 
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stlbluz

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Apr 9, 2007
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Hey kids - You probably don't remember when Fuhr was caring us in '96 before he was ran by Kypreos & taken out of the game. We were legit contenders at the time.
 

PocketNines

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Middle 59:30 of that game was a snoozefest. Way to get the win, Binner.

I was born just after Hall and Plante, but they were already HoF caliber players before they arrived on the Blues, which is hard for me to fairly rank them alongside Binnington. Yes it was solid play, but there were also just five other expansion teams to outplay. Same as Fuhr. Fuhr for what it's worth was not better as a Blue than Binninngton. I put a premium on being a playoff nails goalie and by the time he got to us Fuhr's best days in that department were behind him. Fuhr like Hall and Plante did the vast majority of their legend work first. We even had Brodeur for a few games!

Curtis Joseph is definitively inferior to Binnington. Number 1, wake me when Binnington dogs out a Game 7 by six goals. Joseph gets SO overrated it's not funny. He stole 1 playoff series. So did Allen. Roman Turek won two series in 2000. Casey was pretty decent in 1996, he took an all time regular season team to the absolute limit scoreless. Joseph had some good moments for Toronto but he did nothing of true significance in the playoffs, he was just generally decent. Hall of Decent.

By my personal eye test and comfort with all the goalies since the mid 70s there is no question for me who is #1 it's Jordan Binnington, #50

Hey kids - You probably don't remember when Fuhr was caring us in '96 before he was ran by Kypreos & taken out of the game. We were legit contenders at the time.
that season they were a sub .500 ancient legends of hockey team that added gretzky near the deadline so they had a puncher's chance. the wings that year had one of the best regular seasons in hockey history
 

Stupendous Yappi

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Bannister cost the team that game. Just poor game management. At this point, I would put Neighbors up with Thomas and JK. And Buch back with Bolduc and Holloway. Give the kids more time on ice. They seem to be looking better, but not getting enough ice.
He put Neighbors out on the shoot-out. I was a little surprised by that, pleasantly.
 

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