lilidk
Registered User
- Mar 4, 2008
- 11,007
- 4,246
On positive note Ed looking good, Kasper improving, we will have fun next summer
GDT: Game 18: Red Wings at sharks 10:30 pm et 11/18/24
- Thread starter MIKELGRW
- Start date
Gniwder
Registered User
You are right in that Compher missed the 10/24 game against NJ (team played 7D), and Compher's shitiness started when he returned for the Sabres game. In fact the whole team went to shit at the same time. Since Compher returned the team is 3-6-2.
As usual for this board, I'll ignore sample size and say that the team is undefeated without Compher in the lineup. Time to scratch him.
SoupNazi
Gee Wally/SoupNazi 2024
- Feb 6, 2010
- 27,074
- 17,191
HisNoodliness
Good things come to those who wait
Honestly, I'm not part of the fire Yzerman crowd but you see how unrealistic your evaluation and expectations are right?
Let's talk about the defense. Right now Chiarot-Petry is the worst pairing in the league by many possession metrics and among the worst by the eye test. We felt that Petry was so good that we needed to trade for him with an already full D core. From day one, that was not the case. We completely misevaluated him. Chiarot was brought in to fill a hole, besides a 40 game stretch last year, he's never succeeded. We completely misevaluated him. We wanted to bring in Trouba to complement these players. He has their same deficiencies. It's a terrible evaluation to think Trouba would be the answer for this blueline. Holl and Gustafsson suck. Totally misevaluated them. From last year, the three defenseman having the most success are Seider, Ghost and Walman. Seider- is our young cornerstone and isn't getting moved. Besides him we appear to have actively tried to get rid of good defenseman.
Edvinsson was clearly better than the rest of our D last year, but he wasn't on the team because we thought he'd hurt our chances of winning. That's hard to believe when he's been our best defenseman this year- we misevaluated him.
So what if we assume Yzerman knew that Chiarot, Petry Holl and Gus sucked but he wanted warm bodies in the lineup. Why didn't AlJo get a shingle game last year? He's too far along in his development cycle to be getting his first taste of NHL action, it hurt his development. Why are we hurting the development of our young promising players for placeholders? The answer is that we think that Chiarot and Co are better than him. That's terrible either way.
Our team can't evaluate a defenseman to save our lives. So unless you think we have four more blue chip defenseman ready to force their way onto the team, we're going to have to sign/trade for some of them. At this point, I'm just hoping that whoever it is, they deal as little damage to the future of the team as possible. If you replaced the D we've brought in with completely random signings from the last few free agencies, we'd be better off. You can't assemble a set of bottom four D this bad without being bad at choosing defenseman. It's not just a few bad rolls of the dice. We're making bad bets.
I don't know how we're going to build a defense. Seider, Edvinsson and ASP can't do it alone. No other defenseman in our system is trending well despite having used a ton of picks on them. We drafted Brady Cleveland in the second. That's a misevaluation and a bad bet. The dude clearly was a fifth rounder. Wallinder is fizzling and like AlJo, won't ever get a chance to learn at the NHL level until it's too late. Even if we assume that ASP will be a first pairing defender, I have no confidence in our ability to find three NHL level defenseman to fill out the roster.
Kasper and Danielson are living down to the "low ceiling" expectations so far, not up to the "maybe they can be a defensively elite 2C" ceiling. They're our only hopes for a decent center. Compher and Copp are much better than Chiarot and Petry, but similarly indicate that we're not finding a good center with our professional scouting.
And let's talk about the coaching. Lalonde's systems are bad. There's no mincing words, he runs bad systems. The forwards don't support breakouts and the D dump it every time. We can't get clean enough entries to score off the rush or setup the box unless we're on the powerplay. At even strength we can barely get pucks on net.
In the D zone we crowd our goalie and don't challenge possession. We just wait for the other team to shoot, hope that they don't score, and try to win the rebound. That's how peewee coaches with three kids that can't move run their defense. Our system wouldn't turn over pucks in the OHL let alone the NHL. Lalonde was a bad choice, like Blashill was a bad choice and we're content to let them become nearly the longest tenured coaches in the league while they run bad systems.
So even if I take your view that 2027 is all that matters, I'm deeply concerned by the problems on this team. Everything we do makes me go "hmm that's fine for now, I guess." Maybe Yzerman does have some secret master plan. Maybe he is doing a stealth tank and purposefully brings in bad players and makes them play like children. But if we've assembled this roster with purpose, ASP, MBN, Kasper, Cossa and Danielson are not going to be nearly enough to fix our pro scouting. If we believed this was our best path to being competitive and winning games, if we thought this is how you reach Seider, Ed, Kasper etc the right habits and how to build a winning culture etc, we're clearly failing at that. We're teaching the worst habits that you can. We're drilling safe, loser hockey into our promising young players. We're shouldering them with an unreasonable workload. We're playing them hurt and fighting with everything we have to stay water. That look like stage 8/9 of a patient, well but rebuild. That looks like a poorly built team playing like they should- poorly. If we replace Chiarot and Petry with Trouba and Ristolsinen, we're never going to make it out of the first round. That's what I expect us to do. That's what we're trending towards in 2027+
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Not only are they losing, they're getting outshoot 2:1 every game. I don't quite follow how that will improve without a significant change.
What do you think the cost of a 20 game season ticket plan is?
JohanFranzenstein
Registered User
- Dec 6, 2013
- 2,603
- 3,123
O fire at all, this team deserves absolutely no credit. I swear he’s just happy getting a point out of that game. f***ing embarrassing
L
As frustrating as the start of this season has been, by far the most important thing in the long run is the continued development of prospects, which so far this season is going pretty well.
I mean I would have tried to patch it with liligren and fabbro personally. Waive who you have to and plug the hole. At least they have some youth and talent
SoupNazi
Gee Wally/SoupNazi 2024
- Feb 6, 2010
- 27,074
- 17,191
I have been pleasantly surprised with Berggren as well, wasn't expect a lot at this point.
He is not always showing up on the scoresheet, but that has never been what the concern with him was.
deca guard
Registered User
do you understand that yzerman didnt want to be half good now to only barely make playoffs with a non contender because all it would have accomplished was to give fans a little fun at the cost of lessening the draft position WHICH IS OF EXTREME IMPORTANCE ! as in these guys like kasper n dannyson would instead be players picked at 18/19/20 and thusly be way greater long shots to become important long term top half players ! its no doubt a big reason why hronek was traded , besides for the picks he brought back the trade also very importantly worsened the record allowiing us to draft a way better player ! fans constantly whine to win now but yzerman realizes , without being to state it publically , that early first round pix are EVERYTHING ! staying in this mediocre state the past several seasons , instead of signing or trading for SHORT TERM better options than players like holl , has gotten us kasper,dannyson,cossa,mbn ! its covert tanking and because of how the draft works , draft making or breaking an organization , its neccesary in order to build a long term contender . when if yzerman were to 'jump the gun' we would be falling further n further from the chance of becoming a dynasty
PelagicJoe
Registered User
Prepare the tank, boys.
Shame for James (Hagens)
Atone for Martone
Shame for James (Hagens)
Atone for Martone
deca guard
Registered User
the little baby is allowed to be unhappy and throw a tantrum , lmao . maybe change name to 'brandnewnaivehockeyfan2024' because youve not the slightest clue as to exactly how important early 1st round draft pix are . if yzerman had built a better team for today it would been at the cost of a lesser team in the long term because are draft spot would of severely lessened the talent level of the pix
his weekly allowance given to him by his parents
HisNoodliness
Good things come to those who wait
It's less that I dislike the strategy of being patient and more that I'm concerned with the actual guys that we are choosing. The "we're going to slowly build a strong core through the draft and then supplement them with good players once the core is ready. In the meantime we're just going to be truly terrible because we're going to focus purely on development" strategy is all good with me. That clearly isn't what we've been doing. Otherwise we would have been giving opportunities to Ed, AlJo, Berggren etc over the last few years. We've prioritized the present over those guys and their development.
Furthermore our drafting in the second round onwards has been a total bust so far. We've had more picks than anyone and almost no one is trending well. There's Mazur and that's about it for guys that look likely to be NHLers. Raymond, Seider and Ed have been big hits. Cossa and ASP are trending to follow suit. MBN, Danielson and Kasper are trending to be decent secondary players. That's not the kind of core that you bottom out to put together. At this point we need every hopeful to max out their potential for us to have a shot at a cup.
So then you say that the plan is to slowly add good players and get incrementally better. I'm cool with that plan too. That's actually the most reasonable IMO. I also think it's what management thinks that we're doing. If you're bad, hold onto and acquire futures. That will make you worse in the short term, but you're ultimately trying to add good players with those futures. You don't wait for them to arrive though. In the meantime, you try to add the best players that you can while giving out minimum salary, term and futures. On defense, we have brought in the worst pieces that we could. At center we've stuck to the plan. Compher and Copp are exactly what they should have been. We've done well with scoring wingers.
Maybe we knew we were choosing the worst defenseman in the league and one day Yzerman will wake up and say "let's add good defenseman now." I don't think that will happen. I think he's already trying to add good defenseman. I think at the very least he's trying to add functional stop gaps. I just think that our pro scouting can't identify them. That is troubling
JediOrderPizza
Registered User
I'd argue that you're underselling MBN, Danielson and Kasper a bit.
I take your point on non-first round players, but it seems like there's a legit chance Buch hits, and if he does, he's going to hit big and make all of the other non-first round misses irrelevant.
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