Post-Game Talk: From Riches to Rags. Nucks lose 5-3

[kanucks25]

This is not a logical argument you are making.

So I wont try to debate it.

What exactly isn't logical?

Goalies are paid to make difficult saves. Ideally the more difficult saves a goalie makes, the more he gets paid. Which is why some get paid 10+M and others 4M.

Lankinen is an average goalie and therefore paid like one, but even an average goalie is expected to make at least one difficult save per game.

Otherwise, if you expect your skaters to literally give up zero quality chances, you might as well only employ league minimum goalies that make all the easy saves on non-scoring chance shots.

 

[PuckMunchkin]

What exactly isn't logical?

Goalies are paid to make difficult saves. Ideally the more difficult saves a goalie makes, the more he gets paid. Which is why some get paid 10+M and others 4M.

Lankinen is an average goalie and therefore paid like one, but even an average goalie is expected to make at least one difficult save per game.

Otherwise, if you expect your skaters to literally give up zero quality chances, you might as well only employ league minimum goalies that make all the easy saves on non-scoring chance shots.

This is not a logical argument.

Wait a few days to calm down and come back and read what you are saying in these posts and Im sure you will notice it too.

 

[ExarKun80]

It's not the direct player comparisons I'm talking about, it was the narratives around the team. Both teams came off exceptional seasons, and were talking about contention before the year started, and now might not make the playoffs.

If you want to get technical, I was referring to Hughes/Luongo carrying the team and being mentioned as borderline Hart candidates in the first half of the season, the Swedes on the team being attacked in the media for not bringing enough offense (Petey/Hogs and the Sedins) and wondering if they'll ever be good enough to lead a contending team, injuries galore for top of the lineup guys, and Tocchet/Vigneault getting blamed for no offense & people calling for them getting fired after winning the Adams the year before.

People back then also said we had nothing in the system that could pop off, and that there was no hope after that season. A lot of veteran leadership team was purged after that year too (Naslund/Linden/Morisson), which has already started with Miller this year. This is where things are similar.

The following years proved that hypothesis wrong thanks to some exceptional development work. I'm not saying the following Canucks years will follow that trajectory - that would be silly without seeing what happens next, and involved some exceptional luck with Kesler/Burrows/Sedins continuing to evolve at a much later age than most.

I've just had this movie play out before, and am not going to be all doom & gloom about it when I've seen how it can turn around when things go right. If anyone wants to find reasons to be upset/hopeless, that's cool, there's 1000s of posts on this board alone that can feed that.

If JR manages to replicate with this core what Gillis did in 2008-2012 then he is the greatest GM of all time. We all know that JR is the real GM and Alvin more of a scout and figurehead GM.

As much as Jet Black sucked, he did trade, draft, lucked or forced to draft some very gifted offensive players. His core, from an offensive talent standpoint, was more talented that the 2008 core that Gillis had to work with. All JR had to do is build a competent defence. He did that but lost too much offensive talent and turned this franchise into the Vancouver version of the Arizona Coyotes. I also don't think that Rick can pull an AV and change his style. Last year the team was stacked and rode an insane luck streak untill february when all slowly started to fall appart.

 

[theguardianII]

What exactly isn't logical?

Goalies are paid to make difficult saves. Ideally the more difficult saves a goalie makes, the more he gets paid. Which is why some get paid 10+M and others 4M.

Lankinen is an average goalie and therefore paid like one, but even an average goalie is expected to make at least one difficult save per game.

Otherwise, if you expect your skaters to literally give up zero quality chances, you might as well only employ league minimum goalies that make all the easy saves on non-scoring chance shots.

Even great goalies have off games, Hellebuyck, 6g on 21 shots

If JR manages to replicate with this core what Gillis did in 2008-2012 then he is the greatest GM of all time. We all know that JR is the real GM and Alvin more of a scout and figurehead GM.

As much as Jet Black sucked, he did trade, draft, lucked or forced to draft some very gifted offensive players. His core, from an offensive talent standpoint, was more talented that the 2008 core that Gillis had to work with. All JR had to do is build a competent defence. He did that but lost too much offensive talent and turned this franchise into the Vancouver version of the Arizona Coyotes. I also don't think that Rick can pull an AV and change his style. Last year the team was stacked and rode an insane luck streak untill february when all slowly started to fall appart.

Pittsburgh, Detroit and Chicago, top teams for an extended time both were the same, drafted late in the first round or traded away those picks to remain at the top, the 28th to 30th pick rarely becomes a significant player and could not help the team as much as the instant gratification of getting a particular type of player that fits into a need instantly to help keep the team at the top. There are other teams like Tampa that will have a planned tank to get a couple of top picks and keep their best players mostly intact.

I think that Allvin is running the show way more than JR, while having a title he seems more of Scotty Bowman role when in Chicago but with a title and more authority.
He didn't want the job to begin with but he took it on.
We, the fans, will have to see what happens next.

Allvin has not set the team up for success within the next 4 years unless there is a major, major trade within 16 months.
Allvin/Tocchet turned this franchise into what Tocchet wanted when in Arizona, maybe Tocchet wanted to prove he was right and believed it was the lack of money that prevented his system from winning and not the type or nationalities of the player on the team.
If this franchise resembles Arizona then look for the powerful common link, Tocchet. Then blame Allvin for letting the tail wag the dog.

 

[Baby Pettersson]

Too good to get a decent first-round pick. Too bad to make the playoffs. This is our story.

Welcome to HFCanucks!

 

[TruGr1t]

Too good to get a decent first-round pick. Too bad to make the playoffs. This is our story.

This is what Ed Willis should have titled his Canucks book.

 

[ExarKun80]

Even great goalies have off games, Hellebuyck, 6g on 21 shots

Pittsburgh, Detroit and Chicago, top teams for an extended time both were the same, drafted late in the first round or traded away those picks to remain at the top, the 28th to 30th pick rarely becomes a significant player and could not help the team as much as the instant gratification of getting a particular type of player that fits into a need instantly to help keep the team at the top. There are other teams like Tampa that will have a planned tank to get a couple of top picks and keep their best players mostly intact.

I think that Allvin is running the show way more than JR, while having a title he seems more of Scotty Bowman role when in Chicago but with a title and more authority.
He didn't want the job to begin with but he took it on.
We, the fans, will have to see what happens next.

Allvin has not set the team up for success within the next 4 years unless there is a major, major trade within 16 months.
Allvin/Tocchet turned this franchise into what Tocchet wanted when in Arizona, maybe Tocchet wanted to prove he was right and believed it was the lack of money that prevented his system from winning and not the type or nationalities of the player on the team.
If this franchise resembles Arizona then look for the powerful common link, Tocchet. Then blame Allvin for letting the tail wag the dog.

There was no extension of that core since when Gillis took over we had no talented 18-23 yeard old players like Pens and Hawks. The 2010 Hawks team was the most stacked in the modera era along with the 2022 Avalanche. Some of the players they lost after 2010 were 1st liner/1st paid defencemen on other teams. Gillis said it when he took over that he will try to win in 3-4 years tops. Even if he had drafted better we still could have not replaced aging Sedins impact and production. The biggest mistake was not going all in 2011 and 2012. Should have traded that 1st round for Jeff Carter instead of keeping it and drafting a bust.

Compare the ages of the cores for Chicago, Pens and the Canucks. Sedins 28 vs Crosby&Malkin 21&22, Captain Serious & Kane 20&21. Fast Fowards 3 years in 2011. You have 31 vs 23&25 vs 23&24. The best player under 30 was Kes and he was already diminished by injuries. The only thing that would have prolonged that core would have been Nonis drafting Kopitar instead of Luc. Having a 24 year old Kopitar would have been a game changer. We most likely win at least 1 cup with Kopitar on the team.

 

[cabinessence]

The the media get a memo not to say "Garden"? Why is the Rangers arena suddenly just called Madison Square? So sad how these buzzwords shape the conversation on the journey. Also, what happened to 3C? "They need a good 3C".

 

[theguardianII]

There was no extension of that core since when Gillis took over we had no talented 18-23 yeard old players like Pens and Hawks. The 2010 Hawks team was the most stacked in the modera era along with the 2022 Avalanche. Some of the players they lost after 2010 were 1st liner/1st paid defencemen on other teams. Gillis said it when he took over that he will try to win in 3-4 years tops. Even if he had drafted better we still could have not replaced aging Sedins impact and production. The biggest mistake was not going all in 2011 and 2012. Should have traded that 1st round for Jeff Carter instead of keeping it and drafting a bust.

Compare the ages of the cores for Chicago, Pens and the Canucks. Sedins 28 vs Crosby&Malkin 21&22, Captain Serious & Kane 20&21. Fast Fowards 3 years in 2011. You have 31 vs 23&25 vs 23&24. The best player under 30 was Kes and he was already diminished by injuries. The only thing that would have prolonged that core would have been Nonis drafting Kopitar instead of Luc. Having a 24 year old Kopitar would have been a game changer. We most likely win at least 1 cup with Kopitar on the team.

I agree, the Pens and Hawks had very young cores led by top draft picks, many seem to forget, both Chicago and Penquins tanked to get those stars that is why the ages are so close. That extends even further to Tampa, another team that purposely tanked to get Stamkos and Hedman, no success yet but playoffs every year, Marner and Mathews, then partials for Ovvy, Doughty, Sedins.
Through the draft and not at 20+ slots, top spots.

Carter might have been nice but there was Kesler, a Selke candidate and FO monster and Henrik. Make him a winger? And then there was cap issues. Back then it wasn't in vogue to just put a player on LTIR for most of a season and Vancouver was already in the doghouse thanks to Burke who got burned twice by Gillis, signing the twins and not dealing Luongo or Schnieder to TO. The Canucks were "cheaters" and "arrogant" to the rest of the NHL. Ray Ferarro had blistering comments on how that team was so full of "aholes", and "divers". It just made any deals difficult.

Luc might have made a difference, but ....

IMO Gillis had the team set up for a Tampa type tank, two years of drafting in the top ten with keeping the majority of the team intact. They already had one bad year they needed just one more bad year in the McDavid draft. That couldn't happen as long as they had Luongo and Schneider, he had already replaced Kelser with Horvat. He had Markstrom in the system already and that year his draft team had Demko, Tryamkin, McCann, Forsling in their sights, that was Gillis draft team with Brackett.

Now hindsight would have had Horvat, Larkin, the twins with Burrows, Tryamkin, Forsling, McCann and Demko in the system or even playing in Tryamkin's case, he was ready at 21 yrs old. Sedins, Burrows, Hamhuis, etc... as mentors. Plus a top three pick, the last time it could happen, maybe Eichel or Marner, Hanafin or Strome. Now that would have made a huge difference.

IMO the team isn't in the exact same position BUT the bottom of the line up and the defence seems set for a few years so maybe trading Hughes for a top winger/center and multiple other assets can get it done. A total massive retooling for just one player that might go to greener pastures anyway. He has given this team his all for 7/8 years with no light at the end of the tunnel but as a trade asset, he is unmatched and with the new cap increases EVERY team can afford him.

 

[Kickassguy]

I really have nothing to add except to say that I'm still pissed about this game.

 

[kanucks25]

This is not a logical argument.

Wait a few days to calm down and come back and read what you are saying in these posts and Im sure you will notice it too.

Gaslighting as the final resort when an argument is lost.

Quite interesting. Anyway we can once again agree to disagree and end it here.

 

[Coffee]

It’s logic, as long as it’s nobody that’s in my clique

 

[PuckMunchkin]

Gaslighting as the final resort when an argument is lost.

Not doing that.

But sure, why not. You win. Lankinen should have stopped the empty net goal too.

Quite interesting. Anyway we can once again agree to disagree and end it here.

Works for me

 

[VanJack]

In both the Blues and Ranger games, the Canucks had leads but couldn't hold them. But that's been a theme all year long.

Too many blown leads; too many easy goals by their opponents and their inability to protect the middle of the ice. But that's the lament of a lot of non-playoff teams.

In New York, they played almost a perfect road game or 45 minutes. I mean the shots were 35-11 at one point. But in the end, shocking breakdowns led to easy goals for New York. And of course it had to be J.T. Miller with the open-net dagger.