Frolov or Zherdev

[Jovavic]

Which all-star in hand do you have? Since when is frolov an allstar?

And you have Zherdev stats wrong.

Frolov still needs to reach his potential too, so I dont see what your argument is?

Just let it go, Ejh...just let it go. It's obivious this guy won't take off his rose colored glasses to listen to anyone else's opinion.

 

[Dr_Chimera*]

No worries, this actually turned out to be a much better thread than I had anticipated. Personally, I always felt that Zherdev had more upside, but I've been watching a lot of Kings games lately and I've been really impressed by Frolov, thus wanted to have him in my keeper league. I've decided not to trade Zherdev in order to get him.

That being said, I'm reasonably sure I could get Frolov with other prospects/young players I have. (Namely Hemsky and Ouellett) So, I guess I'll take a wait and see approach with those two.

I'd trade Ouellet for him.

Ouellet has been outplayed by Rastislav Stana for the past year and a half in the minors and he's likely the one to earn a spot with the Caps if Kolzig leaves town, not Ouellet.

 

[Enoch]

"if" he reaches it. Mr, have fun with your two in the bush way of thinking, I will take the allstar in the hand instead. Although, I have to think you are so truly and wildly optomistic that your opinion should be thrown out. Take out the extremes on both sides of an argument and there you find the answer.

3 points -3 in three games for Zherdev doesn't mean that he *wont* be a superstar but it doesn't mean he will either.

Wow......I wonder what you were saying last year when Frolov racked up only 14goals and 17 assists, especially when you add in the fact that he slumped majorly in the mid-part of the season. By the way you judge players, potential should not be taken into consideration at all, rather the best player at the time should be taken. IMO, that is a terrible way to evaluate players. Furthermore, using the +/- stat to judge Frolov as better than Zherdev is crazy. Frolov is playing for a well-established playoff franchise that is 3rd in the West. Columbus is only 4 years in, has always had a struggling defense (4 top d-men are out with injuries I might add), and is 14th in the West. Naturally, Frolov's +/- is going to be head and shoulders above the Jackets. It has no bearing on whether or not the player is good defensively, or not. Hockey is a team sport, and when your defense is porous, goals are going to be scored while you are on the ice. Just the fact that Jere Lehtinen is a - 2 and Mike Modano is a -15 should tell you how little the +/- stat tells you, as these two players are considered two of the best defensive forwards in the game.

All this being said, I think both players will be top-line forwards. Frolov may be more defensively sound, but Zherdeve will most likely outscore him by 15 - 25 points a year (IMO). From the games I have seen of Zherdev, he has created scoring chances, went down to block shots (I was shocked to see that), finds a way to be open against very sound defenses (Nashville, Colorado), has an excellent shot, and will most likely be one of the top scorers in the league in just a few years. I just do not think it is fair how you automatically are considering Frolov, who has already had a full year on a high-caliber team to adjust from the Russian game, better than Zherdev who has had only a handful but has still been extremely impressive in those games. You have to give room for potential, while at the same time giving current play a look. I just do not think that Zherdev has played any worse, in any area of his game, then Frolov in the brief glimpses we have seen of him this year.

 

[punchy1]

Sorry mate but I don't think you understood what I wrote at all. As to Frolovs *slump* as you call it last year well I call it what it was, a young player adapting to his new league and team mates and style of play as well as being forced to try and almost single handedly carry the offencive load for his team while getting 11 mins or so a bloody game and playing with 3rd and 4rth line players. So while he did go through his struggles as all young players do, I would again say that he had a brilliant rookie campaing judging by the *entire* season and not one or three games like I am being asked to do when evaluating Zherdev and he is one of three of his class who have actually improved so far on last season. As to your point on my way of evaluating like I said, you couldn't have it more wrong mate. Potential matters allot I even said so. The trouble is that the Zherdev sympathizers are basing their opinions that he will be the superior player on three games where he has scored in one of them and in my opinion, comparing a proven budding star with the potential of a player who could make it is silly. Lets do this at the end of the year and see where we are, at least by then we will have grounds for the comparison other than the I don't like you or your team and my favorite players and teams are better because I say so arguement that is happening now.

Zherdev has done nothing to prove that he will be close to as good as Frolov or any other player who finished in the top ten among rookies last year, *YET* because he hasn't had a chance to. It is loony to say he will be better until he has had a chance to prove it. All I keep reading from you lot are the same arguments that I hear from people who refuse to accept facts and stats as the truth. Like I have said, Zherdev *might* be a great young player and it will be fun to see how he does this year. After it is over then you have some sort of grounds for a comparison, until then, it is just an opinion being argued against facts, that doesn't hold any water mate.

As for your he hasn't looked any worse than Frolov statement well mate, sorry but that is just an insane thing to say, I don't even know how to respond to it at all.

 

[Enoch]

As for your he hasn't looked any worse than Frolov statement well mate, sorry but that is just an insane thing to say, I don't even know how to respond to it at all.

I'll get back to the other comments later, but have you seen the games he has played in? I saw two of the three, and he was easily one of the top 3 players for the Jackets on the ice. This is in his first 3 games!?!?! So I'll say it again, in the games we have seen of Zherdev, he has not looked worse than Frolov in any area. I know that bursts your bubble, but its true...

 

[punchy1]

Look mate, you don't have it in you to burst anything of mine let alone my bubbly sorry. The other thing is this, I too have watched each of his games and have a different take than you. I think he had moments of great play like allot of young players but has done nothing to elevate himself above other great young players like him. I remember last year when Senja came to the Blues and how great I thought he was. He had that same speed and puck control and where is he now? I think that it is more fair to compare players of this Zherdevs own draft class with him than it is an established young budding star, I would ask you why that is so hard for you to understand buy the more of your posts I read the more I already know why. Cheers.

 

[Enoch]

Look mate, you don't have it in you to burst anything of mine let alone my bubbly sorry. The other thing is this, I too have watched each of his games and have a different take than you. I think he had moments of great play like allot of young players but has done nothing to elevate himself above other great young players like him. I remember last year when Senja came to the Blues and how great I thought he was. He had that same speed and puck control and where is he now? I think that it is more fair to compare players of this Zherdevs own draft class with him than it is an established young budding star, I would ask you why that is so hard for you to understand buy the more of your posts I read the more I already know why. Cheers.

Nice, take shots at me, while hiding behind your own thin arguments. I'm not downing Frolov, who you seem to have a hard on for, I'm just taking a different angle to this argument than you. I agree, its hard to compare the two players, but thats what this topic is about. To compare them, we use what they have, which is not necessarily alot. From what I have seen, I believe that Zherdev will be the better player than Frolov...... Also, we are not talking about Sejna, we are talking about Zherdev, who has played great. I'm not sure who you have been watching, but even the announcers have said he was playing extremely well and he definitely has stood out. He stood out on almost every shift, and instantly stepped in and was a force on the PP. I'm not saying that Zherdev is better than Frolov, but I am saying, from what we have to judge him by *the 3 games in his short NHL career and the scouting reports*, he has the potential to be much better offensively and has shown that he has elite skills, more than that of Frolov. We all know that players may not live up to their potential, but these are two young guys, both who are extremely unproven. I'll ask you this, where in the last two games (those are the two I have seen) has Zherdev played any worse than Frolov???? He has created mutliple scoring oppurtunites, blocked shots, got open on wonderful defenses, has 1g 1a (really has 2 goals but had one disallowed that was just an absolute beauty...), he has a extremely good shot, and his playmaking skills have been superb. Add in to the fact taht his skating abilities have really helped him to shine, and I'm not sure where your beef is with him. Frolov is no slouch, but neither is Zherdev. Your a Kings fan. Its obvious that you think Frolov is a budding superstar. Still, this fact should not blind you to the talents of other players not on your team.

Sorry mate but I don't think you understood what I wrote at all. As to Frolovs *slump* as you call it last year well I call it what it was, a young player adapting to his new league and team mates and style of play as well as being forced to try and almost single handedly carry the offencive load for his team while getting 11 mins or so a bloody game and playing with 3rd and 4rth line players. So while he did go through his struggles as all young players do, I would again say that he had a brilliant rookie campaing judging by the *entire* season

Call it what you want, but it is still a slump. Your point is my point. Your comparing Frolov's second year of play to Zherdev's first year, and are using his stats from this year, as the reason he should be taken over Zherdev. A much more realistic analysis should be used from Frolov's year last year, who had flashes of brilliance, but struggled down the stretch and had problems scoring until being paired with Palffy at the end of the season. His season last year suggested several things to me. First, Frolov is extremely talented. Second, he has some confidence and endurance issues to work out. Its hard to judge whether or not he has overcome the second problem I had with him, but he sure looks like he has. My point of all this is this: you have to allow room for a learning curve with Zherdev, which you are not doing. Zherdev, just like Frolov, is having to adjust from the Russian game to the NHL game, and a year earlier than Frolov did. It would not be unexpected to see him struggle, but that does not make him any less of a player than Frolov, who stuggled alot last year.

comparing a proven budding star with the potential of a player who could make it is silly. Lets do this at the end of the year and see where we are, at least by then we will have grounds for the comparison other than the I don't like you or your team and my favorite players and teams are better because I say so arguement that is happening now.

Proven??? Proven? Are you kidding me? Frolov is still unproven. He is good, yes, but he has yet to perform a full season at a high level of play. This is the year where he can prove himself, which he is doing, but he is certainly not an already "proven budding star". Again, I completely agree that we should redo this debate at the end of the year because we just have not had enough games of Zherdev to make an accurate judgement. We have seen him flying, but just like Frolov last year, he may hit a funk and slump down the stretch. I'm only basing my judgements on what I have seen of each player up to this point. Using that, Zherdev has performed at an almost equal level of Frolov, and considering that he has more potential (my opinion as well as many other scouts) I would take Zherdev.

Take what you want from that, but I'm not trying to insult Frolov, you, or the Kings.

 

[punchy1]

"I know that bursts your bubble" or "I know I am going to hurt your feelings" or "I know you won't be able to take this but". Call it whatever you want,but at least be man enough to admit it was an insult and that you were trying to insult me.

The reason our opinions are simmilar on some of the points is because you bloody well didn't come close to unerstanding what I had said. So, no offence mate but since you have made another post that says the same thing and gives no factual reasoning lets just agree that we dissagree and let it go. I can't debate your opinion with you when you refuse to allow facts into the conversation. Cheers, best of luck with Zherdev.

 

[willie]

All this being said, I think both players will be top-line forwards. Frolov may be more defensively sound, but Zherdeve will most likely outscore him by 15 - 25 points a year (IMO).

No, Frolov IS more defensively sound. Without question.

Frolov is the best defensive forward in LA.

As for the debate, I haven't seen enough of Zherdev to judge but chances are, Frolov will be the more well rounded player with Zherdev being the better offensive threat. However, with the way Frolov has been playing this year, Zherdev is probably going to have to be a perenial Art Ross Threat if I would take him over Frolov.

 

[Enoch]

The reason our opinions are simmilar on some of the points is because you bloody well didn't come close to unerstanding what I had said. So, no offence mate but since you have made another post that says the same thing and gives no factual reasoning lets just agree that we dissagree and let it go. I can't debate your opinion with you when you refuse to allow facts into the conversation. Cheers, best of luck with Zherdev.

Since when did I disallow facts? You have not debated any of my points with me, instead you say some general statement about not using facts, etc. when I have done none of that. The only thing I said was the +/- was a misnomer....If you want to have a debate, have it. I'm not afraid to be proven wrong, but in a debate, you refute my point and tell me why, which you have not done at all, and then I counter if possible. I have tried to refute your points, or at least the ones that I have found.

"I know that bursts your bubble" or "I know I am going to hurt your feelings" or "I know you won't be able to take this but". Call it whatever you want,but at least be man enough to admit it was an insult and that you were trying to insult me.

If thats insulting, then you have a weak personality. Debates are confrontational for the most part, and if you feel like you are being insulted, then I am sorry, and I will try not to insult you any more. However, I'm not sure how you feel you are "man enough" when your posts are laced with veiled insults that you have not admitted.....this is just a ridiculous comment. Stick to debating the players. Again, I'm not afraid to be proven wrong, and I do not mind debating with somone on the opposite end of the specturm, but you have yet to do that here. Counter my points with your opinions if needed, but at least present something that I can debate rather than use trite, general statements.

 

[punchy1]

Show me a single "veiled" insult mate. Look, I have time and again debated your points with facts only to have you prop up your arguement with opinion. Nice of you to continue taking pot shots at me though. How old are you mate, not a veiled insult, just curious. Because you act like a child in my opinion. I never said I was "man enough" about anything, just that what you said WAS obviously meant to be an insult and that *you* should be man enough to admit it. That does point out though how you insist on continuing to only be able to try and make your points by taking shots at others that have nothing to do with the subject at hand and then when you get called on it you back into your name calling again. I don't bloody care what you think about any of this mate, you have proven again that you don't have the ability to see anyone elses side of the arguement than your own.

So, again, no need to continue with this, as I said, we can agree to dissagree and move on, I don't bloody feel like trying to teach you the difference between what an opinion based debate is versus one that is backed up by statistics and facts. I have tried once and it didn't work. We don't agree on this one. That's fine with me but maybe you will want to ask yourself why you feel the need to continue with your sniping and can't let the fact that another person doesn't agree with you go. I have no weak personality mate, I just called it like I see it. Again, you are making the incorrect assumption that you have any ability to burst my bubble or get my goat or any other way you want to put it. I read your posts and laugh at them, they don't get me anything other than amused, see?

I also think you need to seek some inner peace on the way you tend to read things into what others write. You seem to think that I am not admitting to being insulting when that has never been my intention, I would have to think that you may need to look into a mirror and see if maybe since you intend to be insulting that you assume that everyone else is when that simply isn't the case. That is why I find your posts so funny mate, you are obviously so riled up over another posters opinions that it forces you to take shots at them when the truth is that not a bloody one of us has any real knowledge about the sport that is any more significant that anyone elses that posts here. None of our opinions are any more valid that anyone elses (mine included) and none of us are making a living at reporting on the sport. That is why you can't burst my bubble mate, because I know that what you say means no more or less than what I say on the subject and at the end of the day, we will only believe what bits we want to anyways.

So no, I pass on countering anything that you have to say (by the way, I caught your little spin doctoring routine, to use your words "trite" that is) with anything about the players, you don't have the ability to have an open minded conversation on it so I pass mate but maybe we can find another topic in the future to cover that will suit our styles better. Cheers.

 

[MOOSE55]

Here's some stats from the Russian prospect board:Season Team League

Zherdev:
GP G A Pts PIM +/-
2003-04 CSKA Moscow Super League (Reg. Season) 20 2 2 4 14 -
2003-04 U20 Team Russia 4 Nations Tourn. (Intl.) 3 3 0 3 0 -
2003-04 CSKA Moscow Spartak Cup (Preseason) 4 4 1 5 14 -
2003-04 CSKA-2 1st League (Farm) 1 1 1 2 10 -
2002-03 HC CSKA Moscow Super League (Reg. Season) 44 12 12 24 34 6
2002-03 U20 Team Russia U20 IIHF WJC (Intl.) 6 0 1 1 2 -1
2002-03 Team Russia 83 4 Nations Tourn. (Intl.) 3 2 0 2 2 1
2001-02 Elemash Elektrostal Upper League (Reg. Season) 53 13 15 28 60 -
2001-02 Team Russia 84 4 Nations Tourn. (Intl.) 3 1 0 1 4 3
2001-02 Team Russia 84 5 Nations Tourn. (Intl.) 4 3 3 6 2 4
2001-02 Team Russia 84 5 Nations Tourn. (Intl.) 5 5 4 9 6 10
2001-02 U18 Team Russia U18 WJC IIHF (Intl.) 8 6 5 11 22 3
2001-02 Team Russia 84 5 Nations Tourn. (Intl.) 4 1 3 4 0 -
2001-02 Elemash Elektrostal 2 1st League (Farm) 1 1 0 1 4 -
2000-01 Team Russia 84 5 Nations Tourn. (Intl.) 5 1 4 5 6 -
1999-00 Kristal Elektrostal Upper League (Reg. Season) 18 5 8 13 12 -
1999-00 Kristal Elektrostal 2 1st League (Farm) 21 10 7 17 26 -
1999-00 Team Center Regional Tourn. (Farm) 5 3 2 5 4

Frolov:

Player Statistics:
Season Team League GP G A Pts PIM +/-
2003-04 Los Angeles Kings NHL (Reg. Season) 13 4 3 7 2 +6
2002-03 Los Angeles Kings NHL (Reg. Season) 79 14 17 31 34 12
2001-02 Soviet Wings Moscow Super League (Reg. Season) 39 17 12 29 18 -
2001-02 Soviet Wings Moscow Super League (Playoffs) 3 0 0 0 0 -
2001-02 Team Russia 82 4 Nations Tourn. (Intl.) 3 0 0 0 0 -
2001-02 U20 Team Russia U20 WJC IIHF (Intl.) 7 6 2 8 4 5
2001-02 Soviet Wings Moscow Spartak Cup (Preseason) 6 1 0 1 0 -
2001-02 Soviet Wings 2 1st League (Farm) 2 0 0 0 4 -
2000-01 Soviet Wings Moscow Super League (Reg. Season) 44 20 19 39 8 39
2000-01 U18 Team Russia U18 WJC IIHF (Intl.) 6 5 1 6 10 8
1999-00 Torpedo Yaroslavl 2 1st League (Reg. Season) 25 11 13 24 10 -
1999-00 Torpedo Yaroslavl Jr. Junior League (Reg. Season) 6 3 8 11 12 -
1999-00 Torpedo Yaroslavl 2 1st League (Playoffs) 11 16 0 16 20 -
1999-00 U18 Team Russia 5 Nations Tourn. (Intl.) 4 3 0 3 0 3
1998-99 Spartak Moscow Upper League (Reg. Season) 1 0 0 0 0 -
1998-99 Team Russia 82 4 Nations Tourn. (Intl.) 3 2 1 3 2 -

From these stats.....MY OPINION IS.....Zherdev has had more international experince, but Frolov has played just as well or better when he did play......there is no way anybody can say Zherdev is better defensivly than Frolov.......+39 in the RSL!.....Zherdev hasn't come close to producing what Frolov has in the RSL.....Frolov had 1 more year in Russia then Zherdev but, at the same age, he still put up more point in the RSL. Frolov had a solid rookie campaign last season(31 points, +12), on the most injury depleted team in the NHL last year.....This year he has 19 points in 26 games and is +11. His current linemates are Klatt and Belenger. Despite what some of you people say, Frolov hasn't played anymore then a game on Palffy's line this year, but is 2nd in team scoring....Zherdev has 3 points in 3 games.......so what? He was playing wthj the Jackets best player(Nash)....Cammaleri has put up similar numbers.....so would Tambellini if we threw him on a line with Palffy for a couple of days. Zherdev hasn't come close to proving he is better then Frolov.....Frolov has shown us what he can do, Zherdev hasn't. You say he has more potential......that's what they said about Daige and Brendl.

 

[punchy1]

Prepare to have your bubble burst MOOSE55 I mean, you aren't going to get anywhere posting statistics and facts in this debate. Cheers for trying though mate, as always.

 

[Enoch]

Prepare to have your bubble burst MOOSE55 I mean, you aren't going to get anywhere posting statistics and facts in this debate. Cheers for trying though mate, as always.

This is an insult .

I guess saying that the plus/minus stat is a misnomer, totally makes me against statistics. . I have always pulled for the use of statistics, except for the +/-, and I believe I have given good reason why it is not a good statistic to use, unless it is used on your own team.

 

[Enoch]

Show me a single "veiled" insult mate.

Ok, I will.

1.)

(you were kidding, right? I mean, you aren't really comparing these two yet are you?

2.)

Mr, have fun with your two in the bush way of thinking.......Although, I have to think you are so truly and wildly optomistic that your opinion should be thrown out

3.)

As for your he hasn't looked any worse than Frolov statement well mate, sorry but that is just an insane thing to say

4.)

I would ask you why that is so hard for you to understand buy the more of your posts I read the more I already know why. Cheers.

5.)

Because you act like a child in my opinion

6.)

you have proven again that you don't have the ability to see anyone elses side of the arguement than your own.

7.)

I also think you need to seek some inner peace on the way you tend to read things into what others write

8.)

Prepare to have your bubble burst MOOSE55 I mean, you aren't going to get anywhere posting statistics and facts in this debate.

-----------------------

Look, I have time and again debated your points with facts only to have you prop up your arguement with opinion.

Where? I ask you to counter me, and you fail to do so every time. We never got into a statistical debate. Again, the only time I mentioned anything about statistics being invalid was the +/- stat, which I feel is only useful when comparing players on the same team.

Nice of you to continue taking pot shots at me though. How old are you mate

I'm not taking pot shots at you. The quote you are using as an insult was me saying that Zherdev's play so far in the NHL has been on par with Frolov burst your bubble. I'm truly sorry if that offended you, but at the time, I did not consider it to be an insult. As for my age, I'm 20 !

I never said I was "man enough" about anything, just that what you said WAS obviously meant to be an insult and that *you* should be man enough to admit it. That does point out though how you insist on continuing to only be able to try and make your points by taking shots at others that have nothing to do with the subject at hand and then when you get called on it you back into your name calling again.

Again, if you feel like I am insulting you, then I am sorry. Like I have said in several posts now, I'm not trying to insult you, nor am I trying to make you angry, etc. Honestly, I fail to see where you think I am taking pot shots at you. Debates are naturally confrontational, and when somone takes an opposing opinion, then it seems like an insult, when it really is not. I'm not mocking your intelligence, or saying what you claim is wrong. In fact many times I have said that Frolov is the better player now and that Zherdev is a big risk. At the same time, however, I disagreed with alot of your choices of evaluation. If laying out my reasons for why I would take Zherdev over Frolov is hiding behind insults, then I guess I never really knew how to debate to begin with....

I don't bloody care what you think about any of this mate, you have proven again that you don't have the ability to see anyone elses side of the arguement than your own.

You make this claim, but I fail to see how you come up with it. Where have I proven that I cannot see anyone else's side of the argument? Where did I say that I dislike Frolov or hold something against him? I'm coming from a compltely objective standpoint in this debate. I'm not a particular fan of either team. Columbus is my teams (the Nashville Predators) biggest rival, and the Kings have always played the Preds hard. I say this to let you know that I have no biases coming into this argument. I like Frolov, alot, actually. However, considering this is a keeper fantasy league (and almost all fantasy leagues heavily favor offensive statistics) I decided that Zherdev, although he may be a bigger risk, is the best choice because of the numbers that many (not just me) believe he is capable of putting up.

I don't bloody feel like trying to teach you the difference between what an opinion based debate is versus one that is backed up by statistics and facts. I have tried once and it didn't work.

Again, when did you teach me what an opinion based debate is versus a statistical one? For that matter, when did I throw out the use of statistical analysis! You keep claiming that I am, but I have not. Statistics are a good way to analyze players, and if you had been here a bit longer, you would have seen that I consistently lobby that stats are an important part to take into consideration when having a debate. After all, results count!

We don't agree on this one. That's fine with me but maybe you will want to ask yourself why you feel the need to continue with your sniping and can't let the fact that another person doesn't agree with you go.

I'm not sniping. I have no problem with you disagreeing with me or proving me wrong as I have stated numerous times throughout my posts. If you want to disagree, go ahead. If you feel the need to bow out of a debate, go ahead. I personally enjoy a good debate, and that is why I have consistently asked over the past few posts for you to respond to my points, which you have yet to do.

I also think you need to seek some inner peace on the way you tend to read things into what others write. You seem to think that I am not admitting to being insulting when that has never been my intention, I would have to think that you may need to look into a mirror and see if maybe since you intend to be insulting that you assume that everyone else is when that simply isn't the case.

Didn't you just say that I was ducking the debate at hand to make insults at you? Oh the irony.....For the record, I have no idea what you are talking about, and if you feel that I am insulting you, I will apologize....again...

So no, I pass on countering anything that you have to say

Imagine that. This seems like a very thin reason to not debate any of my points. I mean, you have only failed to do so in each of your posts.

(by the way, I caught your little spin doctoring routine, to use your words "trite" that is) with anything about the players, you don't have the ability to have an open minded conversation on it so I pass mate .

I'm baffled. I'm really not sure what you are driving at, or how I do not have an open mind in this conversation.

I'll make a summary of my views, in case you do want to continue this debate. I thought I went over them pretty well before, but here they are again:

Frolov may be the safe bet, but I do not think he is the best one. Zherdev seems to have an enormous amount of potential, more, on the offensive side of the puck then Frolov does. Since this is a keeper fantasy league (most leagues favor the offensive statistics), I would go with Zherdev. He has the higher potential, and since coming to the NHL to play, he has played at an extraordinary high level for his age and considering he just came out of Russia.

 

[Frolov]

Those arn't really insults IMO.

That's what I was thinking too.

 

[Enoch]

Those arn't really insults IMO.

Maybe they are, maybe they arent. Personally I feel quite a few of them were, and he knew what he was doing when he typed them. Its all besides the point, though. Debates are confrontational, and we all take different things from them.

 

[LA Kings Rule]

I personnally think that Frolov is better now and will be better in the future, Frolov is already a star two way player who has shown already that he can dominate a game. As for Zherdev he might turn out to be a bust or superstar who knows, also i have seen his 3 games even though he look good at times he also look lost at other times, there is no way he is better now or after his three games let him play a full season before deciding on whether he is better than an established player in Frolov.

 

[punchy1]

"If those are insults then you have a weak personality". (i wonder where I saw that?.....)

Again, you should talk to someone about this problem of yours where you insist on projecting your own feelings into what others say. I told you that I laugh at most of what I read here and all of what I write and how I think this is all just for fun and how I feel that none of us bloody know anything really so there is no way for me to be upset by anything anyone says at all and you come back with those sad points of yours as some sort of *evidence* that I am being insulting. Well, listen to the other posters mate, they aren't insults to anyone but you. I have seen two other threads where you go off on simmilar tangents and I am just trying to be nice when I say that the problem seems to be you. Spin that to mean or be anything you want it to but that is my opinion.

You always seem to have this knack of not regarding major and specific points of others opinions and sift through each post looking for snips to support your little theories. Well mate, this is the last one from me so have a jolly good time with it. Take each little word and break them down to mean anything you want. I am saying for the record that I have an opinion that is mine and has been evidenced by the stats I listed as well as others (see MOOOSE55) and you have yours based on your opinions. Both are simply the opinions of two bloody pathetic hockey fans on the internet. Niether matter one drop of spit mate. So, please, continue with your paranoid snipping about how everything I say is an insult, its fun to read and see how far off base you are on things but as for me, I am done playing with you. Ta da mate.

 

[Siberian]

What?
It is not even close!!!
Why even compare Zherdev and Frolov. Frolov is already a proven player! He is one of the Russia's best!!! He is one of the reasons the Kings are playing so well without Allison and Deadmarsh in the lineup!

Who is Zherdev? Overhyped, overrated, overblown out of proportion soft player with no real character! What has he proved yet? He was not a leader in CSKA, he was not a leader in team Russia U-20, he turned into a whiner, who thinks he is a superstar that is all he is.

 

[Enoch]

"You always seem to have this knack of not regarding major and specific points of others opinions and sift through each post looking for snips to support your little theories.

. What is it that you think you have done for several posts now? I have asked you time and again to at least counter some if not all of my reasons, and you have ducked me every time. Call it what you want, but at least I brought something to the table and tried to have a debate, rather than hide under insults and try to discredit other posters comments/opinions. I'm more than willing to debate facts with you, but you continually claim that I discredit the facts, when for the last several posts I have not. . I have no problem with you taking Frolov over Zherdev. Heck, I even said up until recently I would have done the same. I do have a problem with a poster that cannot formulate any coherent argument when a counter argument is thrown at him. If you can, do it. Otherwise, you have refuted none of my posts and have resorted to making comments about my style of posts.

"If those are insults then you have a weak personality". (i wonder where I saw that?.....)

I still do not think this is an insult. You took it out of context, and I do not think you have a case for it. In a sense, I questioned what you viewed as an insult. If you do view what you termed to be insults in that post, then yes, you do have a weak personality. At least I'm not resorting to calling people looney, crazy, childish, etc. because they take a different and more than valid view of a debate then you. I'm sorry if I insulted you, but maybe instead of sulking, you should try and present some type of counter to any of my points. You have failed to do so up until this point, and you continue to avoid any of my questions.

What?
It is not even close!!!
Why even compare Zherdev and Frolov. Frolov is already a proven player! He is one of the Russia's best!!! He is one of the reasons the Kings are playing so well without Allison and Deadmarsh in the lineup!

Who is Zherdev? Overhyped, overrated, overblown out of proportion soft player with no real character! What has he proved yet? He was not a leader in CSKA, he was not a leader in team Russia U-20, he turned into a whiner, who thinks he is a superstar that is all he is.

While you are certainly entitled to your opinion, I would like everyone to go here and read Siberains comments about Zherdev and Russian prospects in general.

http://www.hfboards.com/showthread.php?postid=554459#post554459

 

[Siberian]

While you are certainly entitled to your opinion, I would like everyone to go here and read Siberains comments about Zherdev and Russian prospects in general.

http://www.hfboards.com/showthread.php?postid=554459#post554459

Enoch is a heck of a funny guy.
He does not know much about hockey though, that is why it is hard to argue with him regarding some hockey related issues.

 

[Enoch]

Enoch is a heck of a funny guy.
He does not know much about hockey though, that is why it is hard to argue with him regarding some hockey related issues.

Thank you Siberian .

Again, I refer everyone to the previously listed link.


http://www.hfboards.com/showthread.php?postid=554459#post554459


Siberian is a little upset about any Russian prospect leaving for the NHL, and claims the NHL buries and regresses Russian talent. He further goes onto to claim that countries do not do background checks when leaving the country, and you can just leave the country without a passport or any background information checked. From my international experience, 3 different occasions, that could not be more wrong. I guess the laws are different in Russia though

 

[MOOSE55]

Frolov currently carries LA's second line.....(Klatt, Belenger)......The line almost puts up as many points as the 1st line, and as you can see the line's other 2 members aren't top 6. If he did play with Palffy, then his #'s would be much higher. Why doesn't he play with Palffy you ask? Answer.....Murray wants to even out scoring......Stumpel can't carry a line, and like some of the Pens fans said in the Straka thread......Straka puts up big #'s when put with Elite talent, when he's the only talent then his #'s aren't so high.

 

[Siberian]

Thank you Siberian .

Again, I refer everyone to the previously listed link.


http://www.hfboards.com/showthread.php?postid=554459#post554459


Siberian is a little upset about any Russian prospect leaving for the NHL, and claims the NHL buries and regresses Russian talent. He further goes onto to claim that countries do not do background checks when leaving the country, and you can just leave the country without a passport or any background information checked. From my international experience, 3 different occasions, that could not be more wrong. I guess the laws are different in Russia though

The bunch of kids on the Columbus board are trying to prove that Zherdev is great player, that he is not serving in military, stuff like that. Zherdev is overhyped so these kids would go buying his jerseys and tickets to see mediocre BJ's play.
As for Enoch he is just a liar. Nowhere I said you can leave Russia without a passport. The guy is not normal, trying to lie and bring this as an argument.