News Article: Friedman's 31 Thoughts - On Edler waiving NTC, Pettersson being considered for 1st overall in 2017

[krutovsdonut]

The mistake on Hamhuis was not asking him to waive. It was asking him to waive right before the deadline instead of weeks before. It was not keeping him in the loop...and really that was because Benning was playing the “if we win all our games in hand game” which is stupid. Had they worked with him early the bridge doesn’t get burned.

how do you know that?

 

[y2kcanucks]

Agreed, although with Forrest benning at the helm we’ll prob get a third rounder, a plug, and some future considerations. And benning will say something like the plug is a good leader in the dressing room blah blah.. I’m a pretty positive guy, but I just expect the worst outcome with this delusional management making deals with other teams.

Except Benning won't even bother with the 3rd and will just ask for another plug prospect like Motte.

 

[y2kcanucks]

how do you know that?

It's been reported by Matt Sekeres that Hamhuis would have waived to go to Chicago had he been asked earlier and had more time to think about it.

 

[VanJack]

Can't believe he fell 5th overall.

Pundits are going to be saying the same thing about Quinn Hughes in a year. How did he fall to seventh overall? Maybe the Hockey Gods have actually taken pity on the Canuck faithful.

 

[krutovsdonut]

It's been reported by Matt Sekeres that Hamhuis would have waived to go to Chicago had he been asked earlier and had more time to think about it.

it's been reported by botchford that asking a player to sign off on waiving an ntc for a trade is usually the last step in a trade, and also that hamhuis was asked 4-5 days before the trade deadline to agree to a chicago trade and he hesitated for days until chicago moved on.

https://theprovince.com/sports/hockey/hamhuis-and-his-ntc-the-wait-is-on

 

[Hit the post]

Can't believe he fell 5th overall.

Like this guy?:

Jaromir Jagr hockey statistics and profile at hockeydb.com

Hopefully history repeats itself.

 

[Intangibos]

If Edler is willing to waive we should move him absolutely. However, this has been his home for a very long time and has made a lot of money. Swedes are funny like that, I think many of them really value comfort and familiarity over chasing that big payday or cup. Doesn't mean they don't play hard, just want to stay in whatever city they made their home.

it's been reported by botchford that asking a player to sign off on waiving an ntc for a trade is usually the last step in a trade, and also that hamhuis was asked 4-5 days before the trade deadline to agree to a chicago trade and he hesitated for days until chicago moved on.

https://theprovince.com/sports/hockey/hamhuis-and-his-ntc-the-wait-is-on

I'm not saying you're wrong, but it's pretty funny that all of a sudden Botchford is a credible source to certain posters around here.

 

[VanJack]

One quick question....in addition to Edler and Eriksson, are there any NTC's left on the Canucks? Gillis handed them out like Halloween Candy, and they're crippling as far as making meaningful changes to your roster.

 

[Zombotron]

One quick question....in addition to Edler and Eriksson, are there any NTC's left on the Canucks? Gillis handed them out like Halloween Candy, and they're crippling as far as making meaningful changes to your roster.

Tanev 8-team NTC, Sutter full NTC, Beagle 15-team NTC, Roussel 15-team NTC

 

[CanaFan]

it's been reported by botchford that asking a player to sign off on waiving an ntc for a trade is usually the last step in a trade, and also that hamhuis was asked 4-5 days before the trade deadline to agree to a chicago trade and he hesitated for days until chicago moved on.

https://theprovince.com/sports/hockey/hamhuis-and-his-ntc-the-wait-is-on

It’s the last official step, yes. Doesn’t mean you can’t give the player a heads up in advance of a trade being agreed with the other GM. In fact it would make complete sense to run it past the player first and get a sense of how they are leaning before hammering out a trade only to have it vetoed. It doesn’t have to be one before the other and probably isn’t in practice either.

 

[VanJack]

Tanev 8-team NTC, Sutter full NTC, Beagle 15-team NTC, Roussel 15-team NTC

Thanks for this update. Wow, Gudbranson isn't on the list? Come on Jimbo make something happen!....maybe nearer the trade deadline. So Beagle and Roussel can't be traded to half the teams in the NHL unless they waive. It's interesting, how do their agents actually pick which 16 teams they don't want to be traded to?

Not that it matters much... those contracts aren't tradeable anyway...kinda surprising there was rumored interest in Sutter from the Ducks.

 

[krutovsdonut]

I'm not saying you're wrong, but it's pretty funny that all of a sudden Botchford is a credible source to certain posters around here.

he's always been a credible source to y2k, who is the person i was answering.

 

[Fire Benning]

I won't begrudge Edler if he remains unwilling to waive but if he is there is no reason not to trade him.

 

[krutovsdonut]

It’s the last official step, yes. Doesn’t mean you can’t give the player a heads up in advance of a trade being agreed with the other GM. In fact it would make complete sense to run it past the player first and get a sense of how they are leaning before hammering out a trade only to have it vetoed. It doesn’t have to be one before the other and probably isn’t in practice either.

as i recall hamhuis publicly stated he didn't want to be traded earlier in the month, so the team was always going to have to force the issue to get a trade done. the possibility of such a trade was open and obvious for the entire month and hamhuis had plenty of time to consider where he might go. benning then gave hamhuis several days to think about it before the tdl with a trade in hand. i mean i don't know how much notice you need but i think hamhuis had enough.

also, didn't benning get trashed for talking to bieksa about a san jose trade before it was done so bieksa was all upset because he went house shopping down there? that was in a situation where bieksa was good about a trade.

you cannot win. the real problem is that if you trade guys with an ntc it is always at the risk of burning a bridge.

 

[StreetHawk]

Tanev 8-team NTC, Sutter full NTC, Beagle 15-team NTC, Roussel 15-team NTC

Sutter goes to a 15 team no trade next season.

Edler is the final one of Gillis contract. All other guys Benning signed their contracts or acquired them.

Eriksson has a full ntc next season as well. After that it is a mntc.

 

[StreetHawk]

it's been reported by botchford that asking a player to sign off on waiving an ntc for a trade is usually the last step in a trade, and also that hamhuis was asked 4-5 days before the trade deadline to agree to a chicago trade and he hesitated for days until chicago moved on.

https://theprovince.com/sports/hockey/hamhuis-and-his-ntc-the-wait-is-on

The issue is that you’re wasting everyone’s time if you don’t know for sure if a guy with a full ntc is going to waive to that city.

It should have been 1) make up your freaking mind about which is more important, the rebuild of prospects or making the playoffs because they were not in a playoff spot in February 2016. They were in striking distance but had lost both edler and sutter at the beginning of feb.
2) if the decision is to rebuild them you ask the player for a list of teams he would consider waiting to. For full ntc guys you’re looking at between 3-5 teams most likely. Price of giving out the full ntc is control later on for the cap savings they gave the teams.
3) then you make your calls.

 

[timw33]

Like this guy?:

Jaromir Jagr hockey statistics and profile at hockeydb.com

Hopefully history repeats itself.

Context is important, Jagr was refusing to report to any of the teams in the Top 5 except for Pitsburgh where Mario Lemiux was. That's the real reason why Vancouver and others passed on him.

 

[krutovsdonut]

The issue is that you’re wasting everyone’s time if you don’t know for sure if a guy with a full ntc is going to waive to that city.

It should have been 1) make up your freaking mind about which is more important, the rebuild of prospects or making the playoffs because they were not in a playoff spot in February 2016. They were in striking distance but had lost both edler and sutter at the beginning of feb.
2) if the decision is to rebuild them you ask the player for a list of teams he would consider waiting to. For full ntc guys you’re looking at between 3-5 teams most likely. Price of giving out the full ntc is control later on for the cap savings they gave the teams.
3) then you make your calls.

on 1, i think this particular owner decides that priority and he was quite clearly involved in this entire situation.

on 2 i disagree. you call the agent and have a feeling out discussion. with a reluctant player, the agent may very well give a little bit of guidance on what teams might work and tell you to call him when you have an actual deal because he doesn't want to upset his client unnecessarily. if that is what happens you go with that and make your calls.

 

[Hit the post]

Context is important, Jagr was refusing to report to any of the teams in the Top 5 except for Pitsburgh where Mario Lemiux was. That's the real reason why Vancouver and others passed on him.

Unless I have the timelines wrong but wasn't the main issue being that one wasn't sure when Jagr would be able to report as the Cold War wasn't fully over at that point (and Jagr being from the others side of the Iron Curtain)?

 

[StreetHawk]

on 1, i think this particular owner decides that priority and he was quite clearly involved in this entire situation.

on 2 i disagree. you call the agent and have a feeling out discussion. with a reluctant player, the agent may very well give a little bit of guidance on what teams might work and tell you to call him when you have an actual deal because he doesn't want to upset his client unnecessarily. if that is what happens you go with that and make your calls.

Of course the discussions go through the agent. Any transaction does. No issues there. Main point is to get the list from the player once point 1 is decided to be a yes, priority is rebuild.

 

[CanaFan]

as i recall hamhuis publicly stated he didn't want to be traded earlier in the month, so the team was always going to have to force the issue to get a trade done. the possibility of such a trade was open and obvious for the entire month and hamhuis had plenty of time to consider where he might go. benning then gave hamhuis several days to think about it before the tdl with a trade in hand. i mean i don't know how much notice you need but i think hamhuis had enough.

also, didn't benning get trashed for talking to bieksa about a san jose trade before it was done so bieksa was all upset because he went house shopping down there? that was in a situation where bieksa was good about a trade.

you cannot win. the real problem is that if you trade guys with an ntc it is always at the risk of burning a bridge.

Ya, you can win. You just get the deal *done* before telling the player it’s done. It’s not hard. Ditto with Hamhuis. You know a player has cold feet about a deal? Start talking to Hamhuis and other teams earlier on in the process, not a week before the TDL.

It’s really not hard, Benning just makes it look that way.

 

[krutovsdonut]

Unless I have the timelines wrong but wasn't the main issue being that one wasn't sure when Jagr would be able to report as the Cold War wasn't fully over at that point (and Jagr being from the others side of the Iron Curtain)?

you are correct. nedved was a czech defector. jagr had not defected but it was at a time when teams could get a player out by paying money in the right places. for us a complicating factor was the canucks refusing to pay in full the agreed larionov and krutov transfer fees at the time to the soviets made it harder for us to try and get anyone else out, and also the fact our appetite was dampened by the fact krutov was a disaster and larionov at that time was merely good but not the top line guy who had been hyped when we signed him (makarov was originally the star of the three and it was longevity that rehabilitated larionov). our ownership was also counting every penny so no doubt the extra costs alone of getting him over were a factor.

 

[krutovsdonut]

Of course the discussions go through the agent. Any transaction does. No issues there. Main point is to get the list from the player once point 1 is decided to be a yes, priority is rebuild.

do you think benning had autonomy or control over point 1 from ownership? i don't.

i think it was more like this

francisco "wait until i say so to try and trade this guy, and run any trade by me first"

jim to agent "we're on the fence but we may want to move hamhuis. any idea what teams might work if we do?"

agent to jim "dan took a haircut to be here and will be very upset if i bring this up so i do not want to do it prematurely. go get a trade and i'll talk to him then. for now i think maybe chicago might work but i don't know and you didn't hear that from me"

 

[timw33]

Unless I have the timelines wrong but wasn't the main issue being that one wasn't sure when Jagr would be able to report as the Cold War wasn't fully over at that point (and Jagr being from the others side of the Iron Curtain)?

That was also a factor. Would need someone with better historian knowledge, but IIRC USSR dissolved in late 1991 but I believe the Czech's restored their non-communist democracy in 1990?

 

[StreetHawk]

do you think benning had autonomy or control over point 1 from ownership? i don't.

i think it was more like this

francisco "wait until i say so to try and trade this guy, and run any trade by me first"

jim to agent "we're on the fence but we may want to move hamhuis. any idea what teams might work if we do?"

agent to jim "dan took a haircut to be here and will be very upset if i bring this up so i do not want to do it prematurely. go get a trade and i'll talk to him then. for now i think maybe chicago might work but i don't know and you didn't hear that from me"

Well as an upcoming ufa, question the agent will have is so you don’t plan on extending a contract to my client before July 1? He’d want to know that before he talks to hammer. Cause hammer would prefer to stay.

As for point 1, any good business if run properly has to have their priorities in order. I’ve worked for a company that wanted to do both grow market share and be profitable. Given our industry at the time, really had to pick one or the other but they tried to do both. Our main competitor went the market share route and went from revenues of 4 times ours to 20 times ours.

If aqua man is that bad it’s not surprising the team is where it is. Need a consensus vision starting from the top. Edler and sutter out for the year in week 1 of feb and being 4-6 points out they still felt that they could make it.