GDT: Free Agent Frenzy!

[Digable5]

View attachment 891872

A Tale of Two Franchises

It was the best of times. It was the worst of times.

Totally disagree. Look at the Bills 2017-18 season through 2019-20 season. They were in a rebuild. Once the team showed what is was capable of and needed acquisitions and re0signings, they became one of the top spending ownerships in the league.

If they can get a deal done this offseason and make the playoffs next season, I have no doubt in my mind they will provide whatever the team needs to keep it going JUST LIKE the Bills.

 

[Dirty Dog]

View attachment 891872

A Tale of Two Franchises

It was the best of times. It was the worst of times.

Eh, that’s actually interesting. Notice where the bills ranked when they got Beane and McDermott? When they built through the draft? 29, 29, 22….

When you get rid of the players you don’t want, and build through the draft, your spending goes down. It’s exactly what happened to the bills too. Things change when you have to pay Allen and company, just like the fact quinn, Peterka, and benson are all cheap! One day they won’t be

These charts show there’s more going on than one owner treating two different franchises totally differently. I think this chart hurts your point


I long stand behind the fact the Sabres drought is because of incompetence. I don’t think pegula spending is or has been a meaningful issue

 

[Jim Bob]

The Florida Panthers won the Stanley Cup. They were 6th in the league in total cash spent on player payroll.

The both 5 teams in total cash spent on player payroll (ARI, CHI, ANA, BUF, & OTT) all missed the playoffs.

Nashville (27th) and Carolina (23rd) are the only teams in the bottom 10 in the league total cash spent on player payroll to make the playoffs.

In 2022-23, only two (MIN & LAK) of the bottom 10 spenders made it and the Cup Champs (VGK) were 2nd in spending.

In 2021-22, only two (LAK & MIN) of the bottom 10 spenders made it and the Cup Champs (COL) were 11th in spending.

In a league where half the teams make the playoffs, it makes it harder when you are a bottom 10 spender.

 

[Jim Bob]

Totally disagree. Look at the Bills 2017-18 season through 2019-20 season. They were in a rebuild. Once the team showed what is was capable of and needed acquisitions and re0signings, they became one of the top spending ownerships in the league.

If they can get a deal done this offseason and make the playoffs next season, I have no doubt in my mind they will provide whatever the team needs to keep it going JUST LIKE the Bills.

The problem is that the NFL is largely about getting the right QB in order to be a contender. Spending is largely irrelevant until a team drafts their franchise QB like the Bills got when they took the right Josh in the 2018 Draft.

The NHL isn't like that. There is a strong correlation to being a bottom 10 spender and not making the playoffs in the NHL. And the NHL is about way more than just getting one key position right.

 

[Dirty Dog]

The Florida Panthers won the Stanley Cup. They were 6th in the league in total cash spent on player payroll.

The both 5 teams in total cash spent on player payroll (ARI, CHI, ANA, BUF, & OTT) all missed the playoffs.

Nashville (27th) and Carolina (23rd) are the only teams in the bottom 10 in the league total cash spent on player payroll to make the playoffs.

In 2022-23, only two (MIN & LAK) of the bottom 10 spenders made it and the Cup Champs (VGK) were 2nd in spending.

In 2021-22, only two (LAK & MIN) of the bottom 10 spenders made it and the Cup Champs (COL) were 11th in spending.

In a league where half the teams make the playoffs, it makes it harder when you are a bottom 10 spender.

Totally, spending low amounts generally correlates with a bad team or a young team. I don’t disagree this was probably a year they should have added a meaningful forward that had a bigger salary. If Quinn, Peterka, and benson all break out and warrant larger salaries, this is probably a good team.

 

[Jim Bob]

Eh, that’s actually interesting. Notice where the bills ranked when they got Beane and McDermott? When they built through the draft? 29, 29, 22….

When you get rid of the players you don’t want, and build through the draft, your spending goes down. It’s exactly what happened to the bills too. Things change when you have to pay Allen and company, just like the fact quinn, Peterka, and benson are all cheap! One day they won’t be

These charts show there’s more going on than one owner treating two different franchises totally differently. I think this chart hurts your point

I long stand behind the fact the Sabres drought is because of incompetence. I don’t think pegula spending is or has been a meaningful issue

Why the incompetence?

Does it have anything to do with the cost cutting moves they implemented during the pandemic which included scaling their pro and amateur scouting staffs way back?

In the NHL, if you wait to spend when you get good, it takes a really, really, really long time to get good.

Just look at the Coyotes vs Utah.

 

[jc17]

In the NFL you can restructure contracts, and it's not all guaranteed. There's more room to be aggressive. Higher penalty for over spending in the NHL, so it makes sense to be more conservative

The Florida Panthers won the Stanley Cup. They were 6th in the league in total cash spent on player payroll.

The both 5 teams in total cash spent on player payroll (ARI, CHI, ANA, BUF, & OTT) all missed the playoffs.

Nashville (27th) and Carolina (23rd) are the only teams in the bottom 10 in the league total cash spent on player payroll to make the playoffs.

In 2022-23, only two (MIN & LAK) of the bottom 10 spenders made it and the Cup Champs (VGK) were 2nd in spending.

In 2021-22, only two (LAK & MIN) of the bottom 10 spenders made it and the Cup Champs (COL) were 11th in spending.

In a league where half the teams make the playoffs, it makes it harder when you are a bottom 10 spender.

As you've written before, it's a very young team. It's ok to be unhappy with that being their plan but its logical that a young team will be spending less.

 

[Jim Bob]

Totally, spending low amounts generally correlates with a bad team or a young team. I don’t disagree this was probably a year they should have added a meaningful forward that had a bigger salary. If Quinn, Peterka, and benson all break out and warrant larger salaries, this is probably a good team.

And if they don't break out?

If they take steps back like Thompson and Cozens did last season?

As you've written before, it's a very young team. It's ok to be unhappy with that being their plan but its logical that a young team will be spending less.

And having one of the youngest teams in the league yet again is a BAD IDEA that saves money and lowers the likelihood that they actually win enough games to make the playoffs.

Being young and cheap year over year over year over year over year is not building a winner the right way.

 

[Jim Bob]

You’re talking about buzzwords that can be interpreted any way.




Well that’s a whole different point and argument. My only point was I don’t think reading into those buzzwords is worthwhile.


And totally unrelated, I think seeing how the bills spend in relation to other teams would be interesting

They are buzzwords that were spoken when a GM was fired because he would not oversee mass layoffs and preceding a stark drop off in spending on players, as well.

When an owner cuts expenses and talks about being economical and efficient, my experience has been it is a "do more with less" situation and not a situation where ownership is sparing no expenses to be successful.

 

[Digable5]

And if they don't break out?

If they take steps back like Thompson and Cozens did last season?


And having one of the youngest teams in the league yet again is a BAD IDEA that saves money and lowers the likelihood that they actually win enough games to make the playoffs.

Being young and cheap year over year over year over year over year is not building a winner the right way.

Agreed. They are flawed. Holding roster spots and salary cap for prospects that may never reach their lofty expectations hasn't been a successful plan. It could still work, but I wouldn't have relied on it.

That being said, I am not the GM and I did not make these decisions. He NEEDS to be right and Ruff and the players need to repay him for that opportunity or he needs to get a few deals over the finish line to fill in the gaps now. But, I'm not in favor of getting desperate for another Okposo or trading and resigning another Skinner either. Its a tough job and hope he gets it right or we get someone else in here with some new ideas.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Why the incompetence?

Does it have anything to do with the cost cutting moves they implemented during the pandemic which included scaling their pro and amateur scouting staffs way back?

A few things. Cost cutting during the pandemic is undeniable, it happened. Otherwise, I don’t think spending directives have come down from pegula. And I don’t think, even during the pandemic, that the salary of players was impacted by any spending directives

But more importantly, no those pandemic cost cutting directives likely have not mattered. The Sabres were bad well before that. And I have not noticed any difference in our drafts or pros acquired, have you? Hell, our drafting since then may have been better.

In the NHL, if you wait to spend when you get good, it takes a really, really, really long time to get good.

Just look at the Coyotes vs Utah.

Sure, but that’s an issue with the way the team is built, not pegula and spending. I think most of us agree the Sabres should have been more aggressive on acquiring NHL talent the last 18 months.

And if they don't break out?

If they take steps back like Thompson and Cozens did

Are we discussing the teams construction and plan? Or pegula being cheap? I thought it was the latter. No one should defend the team-construction of this team the last decade, it obviously was bad

 

[Dingo44]

These endless circles about if Pegula is cheap or not are what I imagine it must be like in the All Things Pegula thread which I have on ignore - and where all of this conversation should be moved and continued.

 

[Digable5]

These endless circles about if Pegula is cheap or not are what I imagine it must be like in the All Things Pegula thread which I have on ignore - and where all of this conversation should be moved and continued.

Same. I saw it too much in this thread and couldn't help myself. I'm done.

 

[Jim Bob]

https://x.com/i/web/status/1808539026099503271

 

[Dirty Dog]

These endless circles about if Pegula is cheap or not are what I imagine it must be like in the All Things Pegula thread which I have on ignore - and where all of this conversation should be moved and continued.

Yea same. Look, @Jim Bob - I’m with you that last year KA should have been adding NHL talent with real salaries. And same for this year. I’m fully with you. We probably should have add a top 4 D last year (and we’d probably have Mitts still at 3C…maybe). I don’t have confidence in KA’s ability build I winning team.

But I can’t go with you on Pegula being cheap or not letting the team spend. I have never seen any evidence of that. And in fact, we have seen him spend before when the team or directive warrant. KA is obviously building the the draft, to a f***ing extreme, and that means lower salaries. But when those players are ready to get paid, pegula has shown a willingness to hand out the big bucks.

(and I’m even with you that our lower player salaries year after year illustrate the poor team planning by KA)

https://x.com/i/web/status/1808539026099503271

Did he say until what year we should be waiting for?

 

[RWatson29]

Absolutely not. He brought in someone he knows and trusts to guide the team through a rebuild. He's hired a bunch of "non-loyalists" and they f'd it up. Why not try someone you know better?

The initial rebuild with the Pegulas was intended to "tank" in order to acquire the young top end assets you normally can't get through FA and trade. But they depleted all non-financial assets they had to "win-now" before any of the stud prospects were ready.

After that was a colossal disaster with a "non-loyalist", they hired another "non-loyalist" to try and piece the ship together to keep it afloat despite the obvious flaws.

Now they are trying to rebuild again with someone he trusts (who's a loyalist because he knew Pegula before being hired). This rebuild they are taking things slower and developing organizational depth and a locker room that wants to be together rather than that was at each others throats with Eichel. Again, there was a flaw in their gameplan by not surrounding the youth NHL ready vets that could teach them how to play at this level and compete hard. They had a coach that could teach fundamentals and develop youth but not how to compete in the NHL.

They've made mistakes. They are still making mistakes. If they don't make any more moves and lose again, they made mistakes that need to be accounted for.

You can "think" the Pegulas worry about the budget above winning, but for so many people on this thread to throw it around like its a known fact is unacceptable. We've lived through owners that cared more about their pocket than the standings.

We're being made fun of, by John Stamos, for thinking we could sign Stamkos. We're tied to every possible top end trade candidate. Everything points to the team willing to spend money but aren't willing to put the team in a stupid position again with contracts that don't make sense or depleting the organizational depth JUST to make the playoffs. We NEED to make the playoffs, but if all we get after all this suffering is a couple of 1st round exists and never getting closer to actually competing for a cup its not worth it. I want a team that can win a championship, not a team that can make the playoffs.

I don’t agree with this at All. Every single GM has a been a first time GM that pegula has added. First time anything’s are always thankful for the opportunity. Those guys aren’t going to go against the boss, that’s why they’re considered ‘yes men’ and every single one of the GMs and a handful of coaches have been just that, yes men.

 

[enthusiast]

https://x.com/i/web/status/1808539026099503271

The Sabres motto: keep waiting

 

[Fjordy]

https://x.com/i/web/status/1808539026099503271

 

[Sabresfansince1980]

Is that Skinner riding a bus to Edmonton??

 

[CrazyWayne]

https://x.com/i/web/status/1808539026099503271

Is "keep waiting" sarcasm mocking people or like actual just be patient it's coming

 

[WiHockeyGuy]

Is "keep waiting" sarcasm mocking people or like actual just be patient it's coming

I was wondering the same.

 

[Jim Bob]

Is "keep waiting" sarcasm mocking people or like actual just be patient it's coming

Knowing Joe, it is likely the former and not the latter.

 

[Dirty Dog]

I don’t agree with this at All. Every single GM has a been a first time GM that pegula has added. First time anything’s are always thankful for the opportunity. Those guys aren’t going to go against the boss, that’s why they’re considered ‘yes men’ and every single one of the GMs and a handful of coaches have been just that, yes men.

Murray and Botts were yes men? In what way?

Beane for the bills? Or does Pegula only want yes men for hockey

 

[Jim Bob]

https://x.com/i/web/status/1808570882241048618

Ben is having fun today.

 

[jc17]

And having one of the youngest teams in the league yet again is a BAD IDEA that saves money and lowers the likelihood that they actually win enough games to make the playoffs.

Being young and cheap year over year over year over year over year is not building a winner the right way.

Again, if you wish they were older that's alright, but being upset they're young and inexpensive is sort of double-dipping on the same thing.

You used florida as an example, but when you compare the teams, its not that different.

Making some generous contract assumptions.

Where would we like to spend?
9 extra million on some goalies?
Maybe we could have given tage 8 per year?
Depth? We average more there even if Krebs and Beck get the minimum QO.
The mid tier is about even before the lundell extension comes in.

Financially the biggest difference is goalies, and no one cares about than right now

The second biggest difference is the top group and A) they just get a little less, and B) they don't perform at the same level. And while you want to get older, those 4 guys, aside from mayyyybe cozens aren't moving.

Our middle group hasn't played as well as there's but thats not a spending issue because they make about the same amount. Again, lundell contract is the only difference. The bottom group is no different.

Don't get me wrong, if we can take advantage of our cap space and add extra guys, that's great, but the way our money is allocated on the current roster isn't the reason we're losing.

https://x.com/i/web/status/1808570882241048618

Ben is having fun today.

Oh come on, this made my heart flutter before I saw the whole thing