Proposal: Free agency edition Trade Rumours/Proposals [MOD - Stay on Topic] 5

[flyingfingers]

The Panthers haven't been built on signing big name free agents. They've been built on a few core pieces who were drafted, smart trades and signing unheralded players that have blossomed in Florida.

A lot of forgotten history in this thread. It's funny how it works.

Look at a guy like Luostarinen. He was acquired from Carolina in 2020 as part of the Trocheck trade. In his first 2 years as a Panther, he scored 12 goals and 32 points in 122 games.

Now he's a key part of a juggernaut.

Meanwhile on this board, Fabian Zetterlund struggled to score in 20 games after the deadline so it's been determined that he's no good and isn't going to help this team much in the coming years.

 

[Hale The Villain]

This is a very recent phenomenon. Basically the last 3 seasons.

Before that, Florida spent 20 years as a dumpster organization that couldn't attract or keep players.

What pulled them out of that dumpster? It wasn't tax rates and warm weather. It was a series of very shrewd roster moves.

The got Sam Bennett for a 2nd round pick.
The signed Verhaeghe off the scrap heap for $1M.
They got Forsling on waivers.
They sent a single 1st rounder for Sam Reinhart.
Etc.

None of these were considered incredible deals the day off, but they paved the foundation and when they were ready, they were able to take a big swing for a Tkachuk.

Ottawa needs to do focus on finding good players who are undervalued and put them in a position where they can take their game to another level here. That's what Staios seems to be doing with acquisitions like Cozens and Zetterlund.

We shouldn't be blowing our load on Nik Ehlers or trading Shane Pinto for JJ Peterka and paying him $8.5M per season...

It goes without saying that if the franchise is a disaster they'll have trouble attracting talent, even if the weather and tax situation is very positive.

I agree that Florida didn't get to the position it is in today strictly by adding UFAs. Zito has done amazing work for them and turned the franchise around.

But I'm not sure what that has to do with my previous argument, which is that Florida is an incredibly nice place to live and because of that the Panthers can be very selective in adding players who fit their team identity, while we will have a lot of trouble trying to follow that blueprint as a team that is not considered an attractive destination for players whatsoever.

The blueprint we should be trying to follow is that of the Jets - another small market Canadian team with a lot of the same issues in attracting/keeping talent (even more so than us) that have established themselves as a perrenial playoff team that would have also experienced playoff success if Hellebuyck wasn't the worst playoff goalie of the 21st century.

 

[flyingfingers]

I think some of this gets overstated, in that Florida still had advantages.

Reinhart was a year away from being a UFA, so the team trading for him had to be one he’d sign with.

Tkachuk was a huge addition who wanted that kind of market.

Verhaeghe was still a UFA and had to pick Florida, even though he wasn’t a big name.

Bobrovsky was a UFA signing.

They obviously were very smart but still benefited substantially from the market they’re in. Even this year, adding players like Jones and Marchand.

Verhaeghe was a UFA who signed a 2 year deal at 1M AAV, coming off a rookie season (at 24 years old) where he scored 9 goals and 13 points in 52 games. Any other team cold have offered him 1.1M AAV and he probably would have taken it.

Sam Reinhart, prior to getting to Florida, had never scored over 25 goals in a season. He was not, at that point in time, a star player who was going to force his way to a specific market.

Sam Bennett was a bust toiling away in Calgary. Forsling, as I mentioned, was a waiver claim.

Bill Zito and his staff identified these guys as undervalued players who could do a whole lot more, and he went out and got them.

That (on top of hitting on their top end picks with Barkov, Ekblad and Huberdeau) put them in a position where they could go after a Tkachuk once the opportunity came up.

 

[Golden_Jet]

Trading Pinto would be a huge mistake, but I'm someone who would be fine with extending him at 8x8 if that ends being what he asks for.

I think that they will ultimately trade Pinto this season or next season and justify it based on how ridiculous his next contract is going to be relative to his role. It wouldn't shock me if fear over an offer sheet plays a part in it. His agent used that tactic last time around.

Disagree, he’s not getting 8 million, like others have said.

 

[Hale The Villain]

The Panthers haven't been built on signing big name free agents. They've been built on a few core pieces who were drafted, smart trades and signing unheralded players that have blossomed in Florida.

Not necesarrily big name free agents but they've traded for players who wouldn't have agreed to come here or extend in Ottawa.

Tkachuk wanted out of small town Canada and was not going to extend with just any team.

I was hoping we'd go after Reinhart when he was made available by the Sabres, but I don't think he would have been interested in extending here.

And it's not like Bobrovsky would have signed here if we had offered him the same amount of money.

This is not to discount the great work Zito has done as Panthers' GM, but Staios is in a much more difficult position.

 

[PlayOn]

Verhaeghe was a UFA who signed a 2 year deal at 1M AAV, coming off a rookie season (at 24 years old) where he scored 9 goals and 13 points in 52 games. Any other team cold have offered him 1.1M AAV and he probably would have taken it.

Sam Reinhart, prior to getting to Florida, had never scored over 25 goals in a season. He was not, at that point in time, a star player who was going to force his way to a specific market.

Sam Bennett was a bust toiling away in Calgary. Forsling, as I mentioned, was a waiver claim.

Bill Zito and his staff identified these guys as undervalued players who could do a whole lot more, and he went out and got them.

That (on top of hitting on their top end picks with Barkov, Ekblad and Huberdeau) put them in a position where they could go after a Tkachuk once the opportunity came up.

I have no idea if Verhaeghe had any other offers or not so I’ll give you that one.

The reason Buffalo traded Reinhart was because he wouldn’t extend with them. He didn’t have to force anything, if he went somewhere he didn’t want to be long-term he’d play out the year and walk. But that deters markets like us from giving up first rounders.

I don’t think it de-values their great finds. But what are the Panthers without Bobrovsky, Tkachuk and Reinhart? Not cup winners. So its not like they built their whole team that way, but it is true we’ll never have the luxuries they do.

 

[bicboi64]

I see posts like this and I wonder if people actually watch other teams?

Florida is certainly not full of guys with speed to burn. Verhaeghe is the only "burner" on that team.

Florida's strong forecheck isn't because they're just 'trying harder', its because they have players that can actually skate fast. If you're concerned with the phrasing 'speed to burn', have at it, but it doesn't change the fact that their players execute a very high pressure forecheck because they are skating fast af

 

[flyingfingers]

Not necesarrily big name free agents but they've traded for players who wouldn't have agreed to come here or extend in Ottawa.

Tkachuk wanted out of small town Canada and was not going to extend with just any team.

I was hoping we'd go after Reinhart when he was made available by the Sabres, but I don't think he would have been interested in extending here.

And it's not like Bobrovsky would have signed here if we had offered him the same amount of money.

This is not to discount the great work Zito has done as Panthers' GM, but Staios is in a much more difficult position.

They got Tkachuk to put them over the top. I'm talking about the team building that got them to that point.

And who knows if Reinhart would have extended here. At that point in time, he was not even close to being the superstar he is today. He had never scored over 25 goals or 65 points. They guy was putting up Batherson numbers. He wasn't Mitch Marner...

The "no one will ever sign here" is also hyperbole. Last summer we traded for Ullmark and he re-signed, after all. Did we have to overpay? Maybe. But Florida had to overpay Bobrovsky too, at the time.

 

[HSF]

Not necesarrily big name free agents but they've traded for players who wouldn't have agreed to come here or extend in Ottawa.

Tkachuk wanted out of small town Canada and was not going to extend with just any team.

I was hoping we'd go after Reinhart when he was made available by the Sabres, but I don't think he would have been interested in extending here.

And it's not like Bobrovsky would have signed here if we had offered him the same amount of money.

This is not to discount the great work Zito has done as Panthers' GM, but Staios is in a much more difficult position.

Sens already have the Tkachuk piece. Staois has to make good trades like Fla did with Bennet and others. A guy like bennett probably stays with a team that takes a chance on him.

People always forget that the flames thought Tkachuk was a distraction with his antics. Instead of embracing it and building a team around that identity they decided to not have his back and in turn he wanted to leave.

Kadri was the same in Toronto.

You need to build around an identity. If you are a hard forechecking team then you need guys like tkachuk but you also need more support around him to play that style. We saw very clearly when tkachuk was out that this team is pretty soft.

There is a reason why a team like Fla targets a guy like Marchand....he plays their style

 

[bicboi64]

He is easier to hide in than lineup than Gilbert because he is a forward. Most 4th liners already only play 8-12 minutes a night, and it's easier to hide a forward on the wing with soft deployment than it is to hide a D, even with soft deployment.

He spent almost the entire season in the NHL this year. He's not an NHL player based purely on contributions on the ice, but that is usually the case with enforcers. He's reaching a level where compared to your average 4th liner, he is good enough (or more appropriately not bad enough) that he can be hidden in the lineup with the tradeoff being that he will enforce.

Some people don't believe in fighting being necessary, but I'd question if they watched our games, like the one against Minnesota. We very badly need a regular enforcer who isn't Brady Tkachuk. It's partly why Hodgson got in the lineup this year.

Rempe played 41 games in a sheltered role. His fighting ability isn't enough to change a game in our favour as much as having a guy that contribute in our own and opposing zone will.

Having a Rempe against a TML, FLR, TBL, or whomever else we'll face in the playoffs doesn't make use harder to play against nor will his on-ice impact contribute towards a win relative to getting guys that can score or play D.

If we want a meat head in the line up, just give Eliasson a promotion. No need to have one as a key piece coming back if we trade someone.

 

[flyingfingers]

Florida's strong forecheck isn't because they're just 'trying harder', its because they have players that can actually skate fast. If you're concerned with the phrasing 'speed to burn', have at it, but it doesn't change the fact that their players execute a very high pressure forecheck because they are skating fast af

They play in straight lines and make quick, simple decisions on what to do. And more than most teams, what they decide to do is the right play. That's why they're so good and so hard to play against.

Individually, they are not a collection of "fast" players. Certainly no faster than the players on our roster.

I mean, individually, Stutzle is "faster" than Barkov. Batherson is faster than Reinhart. Pinto is faster than Bennett. Brady is faster than Matthew. And Marchand is just as slow as Giroux.

Heck, if Staios built the exact same bottom 6 as they have, half this board would freak out about how it's too slow and has no skill... I can see the posts now... "AJ Greer!?! What is this 1994? We don't need more plugs!"

 

[Golden_Jet]

Florida's strong forecheck isn't because they're just 'trying harder', it’s because they have players that can actually skate fast. If you're concerned with the phrasing 'speed to burn', have at it, but it doesn't change the fact that their players execute a very high pressure forecheck because they are skating fast af

They aren’t a fast team, but forecheck and backcheck well. As a team Sens are faster.

Florida

NHL EDGE Puck and Player Tracking Statistics - Teams

NHL EDGE Puck and Player Tracking Statistics for teams including skating speed, skating distance, shot speed, shot location, and zone time.

edge.nhl.com

Ottawa

NHL EDGE Puck and Player Tracking Statistics - Teams

NHL EDGE Puck and Player Tracking Statistics for teams including skating speed, skating distance, shot speed, shot location, and zone time.

edge.nhl.com

 

[HSF]

They play in straight lines and make quick, simple decisions on what to do. And more than most teams, what they decide to do is the right play. That's why they're so good and so hard to play against.

Individually, they are not a collection of "fast" players. Certainly no faster than our team.

I mean, individually, Stutzle is "faster" than Barkov. Batherson is faster than Reinhart. Pinto is faster than Bennett. Brady is faster than Matthew. And Marchand is just as slow as Giroux.

i would say some of the players on Fla have more drive and will than lot of guys on our team. Batherson may be faster but Bennett is relentless on the forecheck in the playoffs.

Some guys are wired differently and Fla targets those types of guys...and if you don't want to play that way then you will be out

 

[Hale The Villain]

They got Tkachuk to put them over the top. I'm talking about the team building that got them to that point.

And who knows if Reinhart would have extended here. At that point in time, he was not even close to being the superstar he is today. He had never scored over 25 goals or 65 points. They guy was putting up Batherson numbers. He wasn't Mitch Marner...

The "no one will ever sign here" is also hyperbole. Last summer we traded for Ullmark and he re-signed, after all. Did we have to overpay? Maybe. But Florida had to overpay Bobrovsky too, at the time.

We'll never know with Reinhart, but the Sabres basically put themselves in the same situation as we did with DeBrincat, in terms of having to trade a guy who was an RFA but needed a new contract, so he had a fair bit of leverage in choosing his destination, and I'm not sure why he'd agree to sign for another basement dwelling, cold weather, small market team when teams like Florida were an option.

I'm not saying no one will ever sign here, but we're absolutely not a top UFA destination. Ullmark is a weird case because he wanted to stay in the East, but because he is a goalie there was a limited number of destinations. That's not going to happen all that often.

 

[OttawaSenators11]

Happy Andersson has Ottawa on his no trade.

Keep assets and find someone who plays a more heavy game for RD.

 

[flyingfingers]

We'll never know with Reinhart, but the Sabres basically put themselves in the same situation as we did with DeBrincat, in terms of having to trade a guy who was an RFA but needed a new contract, so he had a fair bit of leverage in choosing his destination, and I'm not sure why he'd agree to sign for another basement dwelling, cold weather, small market team when teams like Florida were an option.

I'm not saying no one will ever sign here, but we're absolutely not a top UFA destination. Ullmark is a weird case because he wanted to stay in the East, but because he is a goalie there was a limited number of destinations. That's not going to happen all that often.

I agree that we'll never be a destination like Florida is now. No doubt about that.

But you're overstating how much a destination Florida was pre-2020/2021. It was a struggling franchise that had made the playoffs 3 times in like 20 seasons. They were the sad, alcoholic brother of the Lightning. Nobody was bending over backwards to play there.

At the time of the Reinhart trade, Florida was not looked at as a premier destination. That's a very recent phenomenon.

And Reinhart was not the Reinhart of today.

 

[Senscore]

The trick is to find the guy who's the Andersson of 5 years ago.

 

[bicboi64]

They play in straight lines and make quick, simple decisions on what to do. And more than most teams, what they decide to do is the right play. That's why they're so good and so hard to play against.

Individually, they are not a collection of "fast" players. Certainly no faster than the players on our roster.

I mean, individually, Stutzle is "faster" than Barkov. Batherson is faster than Reinhart. Pinto is faster than Bennett. Brady is faster than Matthew. And Marchand is just as slow as Giroux.

Heck, if Staios built the exact same bottom 6 as they have, half this board would freak out about how it's too slow and has no skill... I can see the posts now... "AJ Greer!?! What is this 1994? We don't need more plugs!"

Damn, I stand corrected. Just saw the stats posted by @Golden_Jet and the Sens are faster. Pathers really are more efficient and smarter with their decisions in their forecheck.

I slightly disagree with your last statement. If we had Luostarinen, Lundell, Marchand, Boqvist, or Nosek o, i think most fans would be fine with that. Maybe not so much with Greer and Gadjovich.

 

[Hale The Villain]

Sens already have the Tkachuk piece. Staois has to make good trades like Fla did with Bennet and others. A guy like bennett probably stays with a team that takes a chance on him.

People always forget that the flames thought Tkachuk was a distraction with his antics. Instead of embracing it and building a team around that identity they decided to not have his back and in turn he wanted to leave.

Kadri was the same in Toronto.

You need to build around an identity. If you are a hard forechecking team then you need guys like tkachuk but you also need more support around him to play that style. We saw very clearly when tkachuk was out that this team is pretty soft.

There is a reason why a team like Fla targets a guy like Marchand....he plays their style

You need to have an identity as a franchise, which we do as a hard-nosed physical team (we were top 5 in hits for a reason), but it would not be smart for a non-desirable destination like us to decide to only acquire players who directly fit this mold.

We need some high skill guys as well if we want to score enough in the regular season to make the playoffs, and those guys rarely provide both above-average physical and defensive play.

I think it was Bryan Murray who once said that if he could he'd ice a whole roster of Colin Whites or Curtis Lazars (can't remember which), and I recall thinking that would be the most boring team to ever exist and wouldn't ever score enough to make the post-season, so forget their responsible two-way play ever making a lick of a difference come playoff time.

You need a variety of skillsets on a team to be successful. Not every player has to fit the overall makeup of the team perfectly, as long as they fill a role well.

 

[bicboi64]

Sens already have the Tkachuk piece. Staois has to make good trades like Fla did with Bennet and others. A guy like bennett probably stays with a team that takes a chance on him.

People always forget that the flames thought Tkachuk was a distraction with his antics. Instead of embracing it and building a team around that identity they decided to not have his back and in turn he wanted to leave.

What do you mean by not having his back? Is it CGY not signing him to a 7-8 year deal off his ELC?

 

[flyingfingers]

Damn, I stand corrected. Just saw the stats posted by @Golden_Jet and the Sens are faster. Pathers really are more efficient and smarter with their decisions in their forecheck.

I slightly disagree with your last statement. If we had Luostarinen, Lundell, Marchand, Boqvist, or Nosek o, i think most fans would be fine with that. Maybe not so much with Greer and Gadjovich.

How far off would Greig - Pinto - Giroux be from Luostarinen - Lundell - Marchand? Not that far off, IMO.

And on the 4th line, I could very much see Staios bring in a Jeannot (cue the anger) to play with a Nosek-esque FA and Amadio.

Generally speaking, I do think Staios is trying to build a team with a similar philosophy and style of play as the Panthers.

The question will be can Stützle/Sanderson progress from being really good players to great players, and can a Cozens or Zetterlund break out in the same way Verhaeghe and Bennett did in Florida.

 

[Masked]

What do you mean by not having his back? Is it CGY not signing him to a 7-8 year deal off his ELC?

There were some issues in the Calgary locker room about Matthew's feud with Doughty. I believe some teammates thought he was being a distraction.

 

[aragorn]

I’m looking at teams like Toronto and Winnipeg, offering the moon for Brock Nelson and Scott Laughton because they don’t have C depth and it’s hard to find, and I don’t think it’s wise to touch our centres at this stage. Staios has already used it to his advantage including Kastelic for Ullmark, Ostapchuk for Zetterlund, swapping Norris for Cozens etc because teams are desperate for good centres.

You can fix a winger problem so much easier than you can fix one down the middle. I’d like us to keep all 3 until we have a built-in alternative for one of them and then if you have to make a choice, fine.

I have Nelson playing LW on the 2nd line with Cozens & Giroux for next yr, he can play C or wing as can McCaron. Once Perron & Jensen's contract end & maybe Giroux than we can do something else with the money available while still having Nelson under contract if we sign him for more than one yr. I didn't know anyone else was interested in Nelson & whether he would get more at his age than he is making now, but anything is possible in the NHL.

Even if Ott does nothing, once Giroux, Perron & Jensen leave we still have options with moving Cozens or Batherson to RW on the top line & bringing up Greig & Pinto to the 2nd line & the team will still be fine. That money could help fill out the roster or improve it. I am one of the few that think that Goaltending & the Defence will be fine for the next few yrs I also think Halliday will be a bottom six centre, they have options.

Tkachuk - Stutzle - Cozens
Greig - Pinto - Batherson
Zetterlund - Halliday - Amadio

 

[Wondercarrot]

Batherson for Peteka make sense if you’re Staois and have decided that as good as he isn’t the style of player he wants for playoffs/ (or maybe doesn’t see him becoming consistent enough)etc (but also feel that Peterka is that type).
They are going to make the same kind of cash longterm - so while it’s not just adding to the team you are moldong the type of team, which to me is as important.

The best thing to happen would be for Batherson to play the game we need out of him because he when does it he’s a dominant player.

 

[Wondercarrot]

If you can sign Pinto to the Cozens contract then do it - having #2 centers locked down longterm with Greig here as another option allows us to make a better decision down the road - everyone wants a #2 and will pay - especially on what would be very good value contracts in a couple years.