GDT: Free Agency Day 1: You're from Boston? Come on down

[PensandCaps]

I'm happy for Ponomarev. If he gets a chance here I think he could be a player for us.

Koivunen is a scratch off to me. He could turn into something, but the odds are against him IMO.



If we got 3 2nds then I would be stoked.

If this is the way we are going to interpert trades now, I'm going to say we got 2 1sts and a 3rd for Matheson and Marino from now on.

Except Smith was not advancing like a 1st should. all these 2nd round picks from Carolina are exactly where 2nd rounders should be. You think you would do better with another random #40-50 pick than Pons or koivunen? unrealistic.

And its better, because they are closer to helping Crosby than another pick in the future would.

 

[molon labe]

No, they aren’t the problem at all. Each are good enough to be a key part of a cup team. I don’t know that any of them are good enough to be the best player on a cup team, so that is a problem.

The biggest problem, though, is that the team kept mortgaging the future for a decade-straight and the big-3 finally declined enough that they can’t overcome the multiple deficiencies on the roster and the periphery moves by JR, Hextall, and Dubas have not been nearly good enough to help make up the difference.

The past few offseasons they’ve been a team with few picks, one of the worst prospect pools in the league, and, until recently, little-to-no cap space. It’s incredibly-difficult to make major roster upgrades under those circumstances. Even now, what is Dubas really supposed to do? We need a top-4 D and two top-6 wingers to compete. We can’t get ONE of those things, really.

The window closed when Murray fell apart and Jarry failed to develop into a competent star goalie. Or maybe it was when Trouba elbowed Sid. Or a combo of both.

Window closed when we anoited Mike Sullivan's employment to be more important than success.

Rosters they past few years have been fine enough to win a playoff round.

Honestly one of the most bizarre decisions I've ever seen is retaining Mike Sullivan after the last two seasons.



Just don't see it. I don't think he's anything special.

Liiga as a league has largely fallen off. Look at the "dominate" players in that league and what they've done in the NHL over the last five years.

Combination of those things. Which doesn't make a great recipe for success. Sullivan being more important than the team is truly bizarre.

Not competing due to lack of resources is also correct. Though, some of that is self inflicted. We do get the same cap space as every other team in the league and nobody forced them to spend that resource the way they did. Graves and Jarry, in particular, are signings that made no sense - hindsight be damned. They were awful signings before they happened. That's 9+ mil. Smith as a Zucker 2.0 made no sense - Dubas blew his wad and that's another 5M. Having probably 20M dedicated to pieces that don't help us helped drive that nail down.

Though I tend to lean most on Sullivan. His usage (as seen by the flourishing of every single player that leaves the team) of guys and his fingerprints as the true puppetmaster/GM behind the scenes have gutted the Penguins.

 

[Gurglesons]

Except Smith was not advancing like a 1st should. all these 2nd round picks from Carolina are exactly where 2nd rounders should be. You think you would do better with another random #40-50 pick than Pons or koivunen? unrealistic.

And its better, because they are closer to helping Crosby than another pick in the future would.

But wait. aren’t we rebuilding?

 

[PensandCaps]

But wait. aren’t we rebuilding?

You can retool on the fly. Pons will probably be a contributor this or next season. While a 2nd rounder this year would be 4 years down the line.

 

[IcedCapp]

Not to belittle your larger point because I at least understand where you are coming from. But to the bolded point he could have at least fired the nimrod AC last year in-season, to start. I have no illusions that he has enough pull or will to clean out the whole bench and I'm not saying this team was a Reirden pink slip away from doing anything but it would have at least been worth trying and perhaps signaled Sullivan himself that yes... there are actually still consequences and yes... your seat CAN get warm. But seeing as how they just hired Sullivan's buddy for no other reason than he's Sullivan's buddy I'm wishing for things that were never going to happen, anyway. It's wild to me that the team has decided collectively that Mike Sullivan is more important than Sid Crosby's last years of productivity but here we are.

I absolutely understand that as far as the roster itself... the pooch has been screwed a long time since by guys no longer even with the team and I would contend that Dubas last year made at least a couple of choices that added to that woe. Too many poor contracts signed with their heart and not brains for complimentary players that Sid and G would have been able to carry... when they were 27. But not now. But I think more could have been done and if cleaning out the bench did little to nothing and you lose Mike Sullivan... oh well. Do we want that guy developing the next wave of Penguins, anyway? I definitely don't.

Sorry, I hold the whole coaching thing in a separate… sphere of reality. I simply mean from a roster standpoint, Dubas could have done way better with his signings last year, but it still wouldn’t have tipped the scales.

The coach should have been fired last year. And then again this year. I have no clue what hold he has over the organization, but even if you blame Dubas for it, it seems like the ownership group supports keeping him.

 

[Ryder71]

Koivunen will be a bust within 3 years.

People mad because the Pens only got 3 of their top 10 prospects and a top 6 fwd on a reasonable and flexible contract for a rental will never stop being extremely funny and out of touch.

 

[molon labe]

You can retool on the fly. Pons will probably be a contributor this or next season. While a 2nd rounder this year would be 4 years down the line.

I mean, look how much this team would need to compete TODAY, less next-next season or beyond. We're short at least a top 4 D and two impactful forwards...and I mean impactful like replacing Jake's production + another player who can drive play and net at least 30-40.

If that is somehow going to be the plan with all the expiring contracts, the ONLY two guys available next Summer are Draisaitl and Marner. We could afford either but that's putting an assload of hope in a seemingly ridiculous gamble. Obviously there are ties to Marner but by any account - Toronto will never change and are going to offer the guy whatever he wants.

I just don't see this retool.

 

[Ryder71]

If Koivunen is a top six wing in PIT at any point and actually producing like one, I'll leave HFPens.

 

[66-30-33]

But wait. aren’t we rebuilding?

What else are we doing? they aren't even trying to make the playoffs, keeping a coach that can't get them to the playoffs, trade Jake and replacing him with Beauvillier. Plus they are getting picks. Also taking on shit contracts.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

Sorry, I hold the whole coaching thing in a separate… sphere of reality. I simply mean from a roster standpoint, Dubas could have done way better with his signings last year, but it still wouldn’t have tipped the scales.

The coach should have been fired last year. And then again this year. I have no clue what hold he has over the organization, but even if you blame Dubas for it, it seems like the ownership group supports keeping him.

Oh well then yes... when Dubas took over I agree that it was going to take a ton of energy, luck and extremely bold thinking to turn things around roster-wise. And I'll always give him credit for taking a big swing and getting EK. On most other teams... that was likely to pay dividends.

But I guess I just get really irked when people imply that signing Malkin and Letang for a combined like 12M was somehow the end. Nah. I can't speak for moving forward from here but so far those guys have absolutely lived up to their end of the bargain. They have BEEN failed... not the other way around.

Dubas absolutely should not have signed that Jarry deal though lol... I know you agree with me on that if nothing else haha

EDIT: Hey speaking of which... are we really going into next year with the Jarry/Ned combo again except now like 2M more expensive? Great.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

I mean, look how much this team would need to compete TODAY, less next-next season or beyond. We're short at least a top 4 D and two impactful forwards...and I mean impactful like replacing Jake's production + another player who can drive play and net at least 30-40.

If that is somehow going to be the plan with all the expiring contracts, the ONLY two guys available next Summer are Draisaitl and Marner. We could afford either but that's putting an assload of hope in a seemingly ridiculous gamble. Obviously there are ties to Marner but by any account - Toronto will never change and are going to offer the guy whatever he wants.

I just don't see this retool.

Yep, this team's gotta bite the bullet and accept they won't be relevant again for a decade. Maybe a bit sooner if they end up with another superstar franchise cornerstone. Gonna get ugly for a long while. But, that's the way it's gotta be for a team from Pittsburgh imo. They're not gonna draw premiere FAs like a NYC, South Beach, LA, etc.

 

[molon labe]

Oh well then yes... when Dubas took over I agree that it was going to take a ton of energy, luck and extremely bold thinking to turn things around roster-wise. And I'll always give him credit for taking a big swing and getting EK. On most other teams... that was likely to pay dividends.

But I guess I just get really irked when people imply that signing Malkin and Letang for a combined like 12M was somehow the end. Nah. I can't speak for moving forward from here but so far those guys have absolutely lived up to their end of the bargain. They have BEEN failed... not the other way around.

Dubas absolutely should not have signed that Jarry deal though lol... I know you agree with me on that if nothing else haha

EDIT: Hey speaking of which... are we really going into next year with the Jarry/Ned combo again except now like 2M more expensive? Great.

Jarry, Graves, Sullivan. [I'd throw Smith in there as well as his mold of player had already proven not to be effective here]

The players (14M worth) - you could have tweaked this team, this Summer or mid last season with impactful moves. The coach - no brainer and a head-scratching situation why he's here.

Absolutely credit for EK though.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

Jarry, Graves, Sullivan. [I'd throw Smith in there as well as his mold of player had already proven not to be effective here]

The players (14M worth) - you could have tweaked this team, this Summer or mid last season with impactful moves. The coach - no brainer and a head-scratching situation why he's here.

Absolutely credit for EK though.

I cannot in good faith harp on the Graves and Smith moves as I was pretty happy with them at the time. I'm still not actually convinced they are "bad" players. This team is honestly difficult to asses most times player-wise because we have to look through the dipshit lens that is Mike Sullivan and his system.

I'm not trying to blame everything on him. Sometimes bad players are just, well... bad. But at this point I think we have enough evidence that it's safe to say that not every player's failures here are completely within their control.

 

[PensandCaps]

I mean, look how much this team would need to compete TODAY, less next-next season or beyond. We're short at least a top 4 D and two impactful forwards...and I mean impactful like replacing Jake's production + another player who can drive play and net at least 30-40.

If that is somehow going to be the plan with all the expiring contracts, the ONLY two guys available next Summer are Draisaitl and Marner. We could afford either but that's putting an assload of hope in a seemingly ridiculous gamble. Obviously there are ties to Marner but by any account - Toronto will never change and are going to offer the guy whatever he wants.

I just don't see this retool.

I think trading Jarry and Letang is apart of a retool, maybe Malkin too, get a faster younger team behind Crosby and EK, hopefully they could get a good return in that scenario and add one more impact Piece.

 

[Headshot77]

It's gonna be great watching this franchise be a mid country club for like 4 years. Super great.

 

[Turin]

Not to mention, the difference between 20th overall and 44th overall in this draft was basically negligible. So not getting a 1st in the deal was a non factor. People just love to complain

Oh yea. AND Brunecke. So 4 of their top 10 prospects are just from that trade.

 

[Gurglesons]

I think trading Jarry and Letang is apart of a retool, maybe Malkin too, get a faster younger team behind Crosby and EK, hopefully they could get a good return in that scenario and add one more impact Piece.

Jarry getting bought out.

 

[molon labe]

I think trading Jarry and Letang is apart of a retool, maybe Malkin too, get a faster younger team behind Crosby and EK, hopefully they could get a good return in that scenario and add one more impact Piece.

I appreciate the sentiment, truly. To go along with what you're suggesting though:

1. This season is lost. You don't bring in Kevin Hayes and not signify you're throwing the towel in. Folks need to understand he's a downgrade on Carter.
2. Selling other players for 'younger faster' means you intend on those players to be impactful (not prospect level) - so who are they?
3. We STILL need a top 4 D and at least two top 6 forwards who can drive play and put up numbers. Those aren't coming back in deals for Jarry, Graves, Letang.

So, the questions about any sort of retooling is: When (?) and, with whom [players] (?)

I prefer competing than losing. Always. I know Sid is still an impactful if not dominant piece. The problem is that his play driving are not ultra competitive in 2024/2025 - especially with his linemates being Rust and DOC. From there, we fall off a cliff. That's not contention and likely not even good enough for playoffs. So I guess - unless you ship all of our term contracts for 1 year deals and only throw THIS year in the trash, you're not retooling in any impactful way. You're grabbing guys that will keep you just good enough to draft out of the top 5 going forward and guys, in the same breath, that aren't attractive to any free agents looking to play with a team (look at Jake choosing Point/Kuch, as an example).

 

[66-30-33]

It's gonna be great watching this franchise be a mid country club for like 4 years. Super great.

Gonna be great when I get called bandwagon fan at work because I am realistic about this team not making the playoffs again under Sully because I am not a blind fanatic that thinks every year we will win the cup.

 

[PensandCaps]

I appreciate the sentiment, truly. To go along with what you're suggesting though:

1. This season is lost. You don't bring in Kevin Hayes and not signify you're throwing the towel in. Folks need to understand he's a downgrade on Carter.
2. Selling other players for 'younger faster' means you intend on those players to be impactful (not prospect level) - so who are they?
3. We STILL need a top 4 D and at least two top 6 forwards who can drive play and put up numbers. Those aren't coming back in deals for Jarry, Graves, Letang.

So, the questions about any sort of retooling is: When (?) and, with whom [players] (?)

I prefer competing than losing. Always. I know Sid is still an impactful if not dominant piece. The problem is that his play driving are not ultra competitive in 2024/2025 - especially with his linemates being Rust and DOC. From there, we fall off a cliff. That's not contention and likely not even good enough for playoffs. So I guess - unless you ship all of our term contracts for 1 year deals and only throw THIS year in the trash, you're not retooling in any impactful way. You're grabbing guys that will keep you just good enough to draft out of the top 5 going forward and guys, in the same breath, that aren't attractive to any free agents looking to play with a team (look at Jake choosing Point/Kuch, as an example).

Hayes is far from a downgrade on Carter. Huge upgrade if anything. And thats not saying anything of Hayes really.

 

[molon labe]

Gonna be great when I get called bandwagon fan at work because I am realistic about this team not making the playoffs again under Sully because I am not a blind fanatic that thinks every year we will win the cup.

I got called out HERE for suggesting I was pulling for Florida before the playoffs started.

Realistically most of us are fine if the Penguins lose out, or miss out. It's the way they've done it - while being married to Sullivan - that makes watching actually painful. I prefer not to tune in most nights just because the style of play, the system, the goalies, nothing makes sense and it's terrible hockey. Boring as well with zero physicality out there.

I've got family up near the team that are always enthusiastic about the games (that they watch) and act like it's football out there where anything can seemingly happen. I've quietly wondered when, if ever, it catches up to them.

Hayes is far from a downgrade on Carter. Huge upgrade if anything. And thats not saying anything of Hayes really.

This is just flat out false. Sorry. We will never agree to this. He costs about the same too, when considering the cap going up.

And, to your point - it's not worth debating because, both are so far removed from what a contending team needs/wants it's irrelevant.

 

[PensandCaps]

I got called out HERE for suggesting I was pulling for Florida before the playoffs started.

Realistically most of us are fine if the Penguins lose out, or miss out. It's the way they've done it - while being married to Sullivan - that makes watching actually painful. I prefer not to tune in most nights just because the style of play, the system, the goalies, nothing makes sense and it's terrible hockey. Boring as well with zero physicality out there.

I've got family up near the team that are always enthusiastic about the games (that they watch) and act like it's football out there where anything can seemingly happen. I've quietly wondered when, if ever, it catches up to them.



This is just flat out false. Sorry. We will never agree to this. He costs about the same too, when considering the cap going up.

And, to your point - it's not worth debating because, both are so far removed from what a contending team needs/wants it's irrelevant.

Jeff Carter was probably the worst defensive player in the league while being a black hole of offense at 5v5. He was a useful PP2 weapon, who could win faceoffs thats about it.

Since its impossible to worse defensively than Carter, i assume Hayes is better there, while also being a much better scorer, playdriver of bottom 6 offense than carter is, not even close,

5v5 offense last season
Carter: 5 goals, 8 Points.
Hayes: 12 Goals, 22 Points.

Yah, such a downgrade.. lol

A season removed from 54 points, ill take my chances hes better than Jeff Carter. Also hes like 8 years younger, i think we know who will age better for next year,

 

[Gurglesons]

Jeff Carter was probably the worst defensive player in the league while being a black hole of offense at 5v5. He was a useful PP2 weapon, who could win faceoffs thats about it.

Since its impossible to worse defensively than Carter, i assume Hayes is better there, while also being a much better scorer, playdriver of bottom 6 offense than carter is, not even close,

5v5 offense last season
Carter: 5 goals, 8 Points.
Hayes: 12 Goals, 22 Points.

Yah, such a downgrade.. lol

A season removed from 54 points, ill take my chances hes better than Jeff Carter. Also hes like 8 years younger, i think we know who will age better for next year,

Hayes was used in a much different way than Carter was here.

 

[KrisLetAngry]

I don't know how good Hayes will be here.

What I do know is his Jfresh chart is a lot better than Carters.

Curious if Hayes does a full year here where does he end up.

 

[AuroraBorealis]

I don't know how good Hayes will be here.

What I do know is his Jfresh chart is a lot better than Carters.

Curious if Hayes does a full year here where does he end up.

All depends if you believe he's washed at 32 after a bad year or not. Most fans are very quick to give up on guys, and end up wrong a lot.
I'm patient, but also not denying that it's a real possibility that this is his new downward trend.
I do think this is a better situation for him than St Louis though. This coach will love him.