GDT: Free Agency Day 1: You're from Boston? Come on down

[Turin]

People mad because the Pens only got 3 of their top 10 prospects and a top 6 fwd on a reasonable and flexible contract for a rental will never stop being extremely funny and out of touch.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

He looked hell of a lot better than Smith. So hopefully atleast a 2nd for Bunting.

You know what's funny about the Reilly Smith thing?

VGK likely traded him without him even being talked to and he ended up on a team he didn't really want to play for. I mean VGK is literally known for being absolute dicks for not being respectful to their own players that have helped them be successful, zero loyalty to players. I find it very hard to be angry about a bloke that never wanted to come to the team because he likely was never given the respect to even have the discussion with his trash franchise that he helped win their first cup with.

I'm sure, like Marchessault, Fleury, and others, those assholes likely told him he was a VGK fo lyfe and then quickly f***ed them the moment they felt at ease about it.

 

[KrisLetAngry]

I'm not sure I buy the idea that Dubas didn't hear "Michael Bunting" and immediately get JR vision.



We all know Reilly Smith is going to put up 25goals + 35 assists or something with the Rangers and then fans will be like "yeah, but they have good players" while simultaneously saying the only reason Granlund is producing is "because he is on a bad team".

we were trying to put a square in a circle hole with Granlund. So many other players we could have targeted. It was bad.

Rielly Smith in a contract year most likely will find someone to work with the Rangers. Who knows what he does but beside Malkin and Crosby it did not look promising.

Yeah I think as far as picks outside of top-10 and prospects go, getting quantity is the play, so I don't hate landing that kinda stuff in bulk but I'm really not impressed at first glance by any of the guys coming back. Oh well. Apparently Jake decided last summer after he declined the Pens' offer that he was done negotiating with anyone until FA and that just cratered his value.

Agreed and yep Jake took a big ass deal.

I guess I can placate myself with the knowledge that prospect rankings often mean very little and that hopefully one of the three the team ended up with breaks out. We're kinda due. But at first blush they all seem like... well... NHL 2nd round picks. Check the percentages on that. Not too great.

I think 2nd round picks have roughly a 17% chance of playing 300 NHL games.

basically a 40% chance one of them hits that target. One could argue seeing some of the development afterwards may increase those odds with how Pono sounds so promising.

Not sure why Bunting is viewed as a cap dump by people. He was a bad fit on Carolina but he has a short contract and a skillset teams covet. Pens could flip him for good value when he has one year left.

Agreed. Potential retention as well.

Which is the reality we are in. As fans, we will probably not even have a full read on how the rebuild is going until after at least one or two of Crosby, Malkin, and Letang retire or have been seperated from the team for a few years. I'd say the earliest would be 25-26 maybe... or more likely 26-27 season till we can fully say whether the rebuild is working or has worked. Or not. Thats too far down the road with dozen of variables to be able to make any reasonable prediction. You can make wild stab in the dark ones. But thats about it.


I like Bunting. I don't get the hate ether. But I would be surprised if he keeps up a sub ppg pace. Probably more seasonable to put him in the 45-55 point range. Thats reasonable. If he overshoots that. Nothing but cream on the top.

Honestly replacing a 9 million player with a 4.5 million player and getting 50 points from them isn't so bad.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

You don't have to be an amazing skater to be good, having decent foot and hand work around the net, along with a good IQ and a decent shot is more than enough to be a good NHL player. If you have a good low center of gravity and aren't Conor Sheary weak, you can get by with the lack of size.

Jake wasn't exactly a quick skater by any means, he had above average enough speed to get to the right areas and made his hockey IQ and skill do the rest.

Koivunen isn't a slow skater by any means, he just had a weird choppy af stride in his draft year, he's worked on it a ton since and looks perfectly fine.

 

[Malkinstheman]

People mad because the Pens only got 3 of their top 10 prospects and a top 6 fwd on a reasonable and flexible contract for a rental will never stop being extremely funny and out of touch.

Not to mention, the difference between 20th overall and 44th overall in this draft was basically negligible. So not getting a 1st in the deal was a non factor. People just love to complain

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

People mad because the Pens only got 3 of their top 10 prospects and a top 6 fwd on a reasonable and flexible contract for a rental will never stop being extremely funny and out of touch.

I'm not mad. They traded Jake and that was the correct conclusion to come to. I just don't think it was a haul or whatever. If the shoe were somehow on the other foot I think we'd all be generally pleased that we managed to snag a ~90 point ~40 goal forward without having to dish our first or any top prospects. Even if the eventual results are not what we were hoping for.

As for your other post yes... I definitely acknowledge that arbitrary "prospect rankings" are often totally irrelevant to how things turn out in reality. There have been plenty of young players within a system that were not overly-regarded that turned out to be great players. And I sincerely hope one of these guys is finally that lottery ball we haven't seen turn up in many years.

I'm mostly poking a little bit of fun of those few that were bouncing around all last year leading up to the TDL crowing about what a massive haul Jake was going to bring. For THIS team it's pretty great since our prospect pool is about as deep as a puddle. In a vacuum it's a relatively so-so trade. Not bad... not terrific, either. I hoped for more for the team's best asset they are likely to have in some time but there were factors that decreased Jake's value that I'm not ignorant of, too.

 

[GilbertSeinfeld]

I never bought into the "haul" idea one way or the other since he was a rental. But it woulda been cool to score one of their top five prospects or a first, at least. I want to be excited about Bunting next season but I dunno... he seems like the kinda player we've seen here before that comes in with a bang and then follows it up with a big, swampy, extended wet fart. I'll be very happy to be wrong on that front though as a late-season Bunting extrapolated over the course of all next year would make things a lot more watchable.

As soon as Bunting is "fixed" by the coaching staff he'll be just as useless as anyone.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

People mad because the Pens only got 3 of their top 10 prospects and a top 6 fwd on a reasonable and flexible contract for a rental will never stop being extremely funny and out of touch.

I was fine with the return for the prospects, at best, out of sheer greed, I wanted a 1st as well, but then the reality of all set in.

Mike Sullivan will still be here and in charge of their development and the trade will look awful because of him.

 

[Gurglesons]

You don't have to be an amazing skater to be good, having decent foot and hand work around the net, along with a good IQ and a decent shot is more than enough to be a good NHL player. If you have a good low center of gravity and aren't Conor Sheary weak, you can get by with the lack of size.

Conor Sheary weighed as much as Koivunen.

This is the issue with Koivunen.

It's not just that he isn't a great skater. He's not a great skater. He doesn't weigh much and he isn't overtly large.

So basically he needs to be an insanely intelligent player to compensate.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

As soon as Bunting is "fixed" by the coaching staff he'll be just as useless as anyone.

Watch Bunting not drive the net anymore and become a perimeter princess like Sullivan likes to force them into becoming.

 

[KrisLetAngry]

People mad because the Pens only got 3 of their top 10 prospects and a top 6 fwd on a reasonable and flexible contract for a rental will never stop being extremely funny and out of touch.

Yep so many people it feels just want to dunk on Dubas.

I remove the person and objectively look at a trade.

Hextall getting Jeff Carter was good. The 2 year extension was bad.

I'm not mad. They traded Jake and that was the correct conclusion to come to. I just don't think it was a haul or whatever. If the shoe were somehow on the other foot I think we'd all be generally pleased that we managed to snag a ~90 point ~40 goal forward without having to dish our first or any top prospects. Even if the eventual results are not what we were hoping for.

As for your other post yes... I definitely acknowledge that arbitrary "prospect rankings" are often totally irrelevant to how things turn out in reality. There have been plenty of young players within a system that were not overly-regarded that turned out to be great players. And I sincerely hope one of these guys is finally that lottery ball we haven't seen turn up in many years.

I'm mostly poking a little bit of fun of those few that were bouncing around all last year leading up to the TDL crowing about what a massive haul Jake was going to bring. For THIS team it's pretty great since our prospect pool is about as deep as a puddle. In a vacuum it's a relatively so-so trade. Not bad... not terrific, either. I hoped for more for the team's best asset they are likely to have in some time but there were factors that decreased Jake's value that I'm not ignorant of, too.

I think ultimately what we saw with how he wouldn't confirm where he would sign hurt his value.

I know Carolina is one of the cheaper teams on deals but Carolina even with the 8th year gave up on Guentzel.

 

[PensandCaps]

Conor Sheary weighed as much as Koivunen.

This is the issue with Koivunen.

It's not just that he isn't a great skater. He's not a great skater. He doesn't weigh much and he isn't overtly large.

So basically he needs to be an insanely intelligent player to compensate.

You can weigh less or the same but still have better core strength and better balance.

Malkin is a fair bit taller and little bit heavier than Crosby, Crosby is far harder to take the puck off of in close to the net.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

Conor Sheary weighed as much as Koivunen.

This is the issue with Koivunen.

It's not just that he isn't a great skater. He's not a great skater. He doesn't weigh much and he isn't overtly large.

So basically he needs to be an insanely intelligent player to compensate.

Of which he is. He's a player that is constantly moving and making his linemates better with his strong hockey IQ and positioning. That's one of his biggest strenghts as a player, what he lacks in top end speed and above average speed, he makes up with very good Hockey IQ.

Yep so many people it feels just want to dunk on Dubas.

I remove the person and objectively look at a trade.

Hextall getting Jeff Carter was good. The 2 year extension was bad.


I think ultimately what we saw with how he wouldn't confirm where he would sign hurt his value.

I know Carolina is one of the cheaper teams on deals but Carolina even with the 8th year gave up on Guentzel.

I'd say the extension was fine too. How his ice time was managed was the bad. The real bad.

It's the same with someone like Chud Turdewedel. He was fine as a 7th or 8th, but Sullivan literally had him playing regularly as a 6th defenseman for a very long time. Right now, his mid ass is without a contract, shocker.

 

[Harvey Birdman]

Not to mention, the difference between 20th overall and 44th overall in this draft was basically negligible. So not getting a 1st in the deal was a non factor. People just love to complain

What I think of it is a lack of acceptance of where the team is. People may say they know or want the team to rebuild. But they have not fully accepted it. The moment the extensions were signed for Malkin and Letang. I knew I would not see this team contend again until there was a rebuild and the Crosby, Malkin, and Letang era was completely over. I don't expect the team to turn a corner to realistically the 26-27 season. I said a year earlier in a post just a bit ago. But really 26-27 is the earliest we could see any of these moves to start a rebuild even starting to show their promise. Or lack of. Truth is the fan base is spoiled. Those of us old enough to have watched Mario/Jagr got to see two legends slice the league in half together along with two cup wins I was a young kid but I remember it. Then in the Sid/Malkin/Letang era got to see two back to back runs resulting in 3 cups. The fan base is spoiled. They have not accepted that the team will be bad. And that it almost has to be bad now. You do not have 15+ years of pure full throttle contention and not have to go through a downturn at some point. And truthfully... I would rather have the wild ups and bottom out lows. Than just stuck treading water in the middle. As Bill Hicks would say, "Remember. It's just a ride."

 

[IcedCapp]

I think its a bit of column A and column B with Dubas. I do not think he would have taken the job if he was not given some level of autonomy given how things played out in Toronto and that front office. So I think his hands are on the helm. But I also FSG is probably a hardcore backseat driver with any of their teams. So FSG to use your steering the boat analogy, FSG probably says to him, "You can go anywhere you want... INBETWEEN... And ONLY INBETWEEN North and East. No where else. Knock yourself out." So I think he lives in a semi-autonomous role. Free to make choices within hard defined set of ranges.

I think he has full autonomy* now and will have full autonomy (no asterisk) when Sid retires. I do not believe he has the power to move the big 3 and start a full rebuild.

 

[Gurglesons]

Those same questions were raised about Puustinen with his size and if he could hack it on NA ice, it's a wait and see approach there. Koivunen did well in Europe and the skill is there. Just have to wait and see how he adapts in WBS.

His skating was an issue when he was in his draft year, but he's worked on it.

The irony is a lot of blokes here also felt Puustinen needed to work on his skating and then when he came over and they got to see him play, that question was answered quickly. I've seen enough footage of Koivunen to see that from his draft profile videos to now, his skating has changed a lot. He's not as choppy anymore, his strides are more fluid and he looks quicker with his edge work.

Puustinen also came over and immediately produced in the A following his season with the Finnish league. Koivunen didn't. Different age groups, but he's just the exact skill set I don't have much faith in.

Also was more impressed with Puustinen in his international WJC play, but that's probably because I was more focused on him.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

What I think of it is a lack of acceptance of where the team is. People may say they know or want the team to rebuild. But they have not fully accepted it. The moment the extensions were signed for Malkin and Letang. I knew I would not see this team contend again until there was a rebuild and the Crosby, Malkin, and Letang era was completely over. I don't expect the team to turn a corner to realistically the 26-27 season. I said a year earlier in a post just a bit ago. But really 26-27 is the earliest we could see any of these moves to start a rebuild even starting to show their promise. Or lack of. Truth is the fan base is spoiled. Those of us old enough to have watched Mario/Jagr got to see two legends slice the league in half together along with two cup wins I was a young kid but I remember it. Then in the Sid/Malkin/Letang era got to see two back to back runs resulting in 3 cups. The fan base is spoiled. They have not accepted that the team will be bad. And that it almost has to be bad now. You do not have 15+ years of pure full throttle contention and not have to go through a downturn at some point. And truthfully... I would rather have the wild ups and bottom out lows. Than just stuck treading water in the middle. As Bill Hicks would say, "Remember. It's just a ride."

See... I just don't get this.

Have these guys been the problem? Really?

Maybe at their old cap hits with current level of play. But at like 6M for each? That's basically Tristan Jarry money.

 

[Gurglesons]

You can weigh less or the same but still have better core strength and better balance.

I just don't see it with the player. As I said, happy to make a bet.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

Conor Sheary weighed as much as Koivunen.

This is the issue with Koivunen.

It's not just that he isn't a great skater. He's not a great skater. He doesn't weigh much and he isn't overtly large.

So basically he needs to be an insanely intelligent player to compensate.

Beauvillier is known for being a very quick skater, he's about 2" taller than Sheary and the same weight. I think the focus on weight is a little weird, Malkin for his height has never been at the weight most think he should be at to be a bull, but he has been all this time while being lighter than Crosby. Geno is what, 6'3" and 15lbs heavier than Conor Sheary and Beauvillier.

Puustinen also came over and immediately produced in the A following his season with the Finnish league. Koivunen didn't. Different age groups, but he's just the exact skill set I don't have much faith in.

Also was more impressed with Puustinen in his international WJC play, but that's probably because I was more focused on him.

Koivunen came over too early to the Wolves and the Wolves aren't the best team to come into at all as a young player. They prioritize winning first and development isn't at the top of their list. They're an independently owned AHL team that signs affiliations but has been known as a team that will play veterans over youth because they're in it to win and not be a developmental team. That actually tells you more than you needed to know about how good Ponomarev is, liked him as a Canes prospect prior to the deal, but I just know Sullivan is going to f*** this kid over.

 

[PensandCaps]

I just don't see it with the player. As I said, happy to make a bet.

Whether he's good or not, I just don't think getting what is essentially three 2nds and a capable top 9 winger for 22 games of a player is a bad trade.

 

[Gurglesons]

Beauvillier is known for being a very quick skater, he's about 2" taller than Sheary and the same weight. I think the focus on weight is a little weird, Malkin for his height has never been at the weight most think he should be at to be a bull, but he has been all this time while being lighter than Crosby. Geno is what, 6'3" and 15lbs heavier than Conor Sheary and Beauvillier.


Koivunen came over too early to the Wolves and the Wolves aren't the best team to come into at all as a young player. They prioritize winning first and development isn't at the top of their list. They're an independently owned AHL team that signs affiliations but has been known as a team that will play veterans over youth because they're in it to win and not be a developmental team. That actually tells you more than you needed to know about how good Ponomarev is, liked him as a Canes prospect prior to the deal, but I just know Sullivan is going to f*** this kid over.

I'm happy for Ponomarev. If he gets a chance here I think he could be a player for us.

Koivunen is a scratch off to me. He could turn into something, but the odds are against him IMO.

Whether he's good or not, I just don't think getting what is essentially three 2nds and a capable top 9 winger for 22 games of a player is a bad trade.

If we got 3 2nds then I would be stoked.

If this is the way we are going to interpert trades now, I'm going to say we got 2 1sts and a 3rd for Matheson and Marino from now on.

 

[IcedCapp]

See... I just don't get this.

Have these guys been the problem? Really?

No, they aren’t the problem at all. Each are good enough to be a key part of a cup team. I don’t know that any of them are good enough to be the best player on a cup team, so that is a problem.

The biggest problem, though, is that the team kept mortgaging the future for a decade-straight and the big-3 finally declined enough that they can’t overcome the multiple deficiencies on the roster and the periphery moves by JR, Hextall, and Dubas have not been nearly good enough to help make up the difference.

The past few offseasons they’ve been a team with few picks, one of the worst prospect pools in the league, and, until recently, little-to-no cap space. It’s incredibly-difficult to make major roster upgrades under those circumstances. Even now, what is Dubas really supposed to do? We need a top-4 D and two top-6 wingers to compete. We can’t get ONE of those things, really.

The window closed when Murray fell apart and Jarry failed to develop into a competent star goalie. Or maybe it was when Trouba elbowed Sid. Or a combo of both.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

I'm happy for Ponomarev. If he gets a chance here I think he could be a player for us.

Koivunen is a scratch off to me. He could turn into something, but the odds are against him IMO.

Well for one, Koivunen coming over to the Penguins for WBS and getting to work with Braid and Murray, they can assess what he can do to work on the skating part. His Hockey IQ is way too good to not put in that investment.

 

[Gurglesons]

No, they aren’t the problem at all. Each are good enough to be a key part of a cup team. I don’t know that any of them are good enough to be the best player on a cup team, so that is a problem.

The biggest problem, though, is that the team kept mortgaging the future for a decade-straight and the big-3 finally declined enough that they can’t overcome the multiple deficiencies on the roster and the periphery moves by JR, Hextall, and Dubas have not been nearly good enough to help make up the difference.

The past few offseasons they’ve been a team with few picks, one of the worst prospect pools in the league, and, until recently, little-to-no cap space. It’s incredibly-difficult to make major roster upgrades under those circumstances. Even now, what is Dubas really supposed to do? We need a top-4 D and two top-6 wingers to compete. We can’t get ONE of those things, really.

The window closed when Murray fell apart and Jarry failed to develop into a competent star goalie. Or maybe it was when Trouba elbowed Sid. Or a combo of both.

Window closed when we anoited Mike Sullivan's employment to be more important than success.

Rosters they past few years have been fine enough to win a playoff round.

Honestly one of the most bizarre decisions I've ever seen is retaining Mike Sullivan after the last two seasons.

Well for one, Koivunen coming over to the Penguins for WBS and getting to work with Braid and Murray, they can assess what he can do to work on the skating part. His Hockey IQ is way too good to not put in that investment.

Just don't see it. I don't think he's anything special.

Liiga as a league has largely fallen off. Look at the "dominate" players in that league and what they've done in the NHL over the last five years.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

No, they aren’t the problem at all. Each are good enough to be a key part of a cup team. I don’t know that any of them are good enough to be the best player on a cup team, so that is a problem.

The biggest problem, though, is that the team kept mortgaging the future for a decade-straight and the big-3 finally declined enough that they can’t overcome the multiple deficiencies on the roster and the periphery moves by JR, Hextall, and Dubas have not been nearly good enough to help make up the difference.

The past few offseasons they’ve been a team with few picks, one of the worst prospect pools in the league, and, until recently, little-to-no cap space. It’s incredibly-difficult to make major roster upgrades under those circumstances. Even now, what is Dubas really supposed to do? We need a top-4 D and two top-6 wingers to compete. We can’t get ONE of those things, really.

The window closed when Murray fell apart and Jarry failed to develop into a competent star goalie. Or maybe it was when Trouba elbowed Sid. Or a combo of both.

Not to belittle your larger point because I at least understand where you are coming from. But to the bolded point he could have at least fired the nimrod AC last year in-season, to start. I have no illusions that he has enough pull or will to clean out the whole bench and I'm not saying this team was a Reirden pink slip away from doing anything but it would have at least been worth trying and perhaps signaled Sullivan himself that yes... there are actually still consequences and yes... your seat CAN get warm. But seeing as how they just hired Sullivan's buddy for no other reason than he's Sullivan's buddy I'm wishing for things that were never going to happen, anyway. It's wild to me that the team has decided collectively that Mike Sullivan is more important than Sid Crosby's last years of productivity but here we are.

I absolutely understand that as far as the roster itself... the pooch has been screwed a long time since by guys no longer even with the team and I would contend that Dubas last year made at least a couple of choices that added to that woe. Too many poor contracts signed with their heart and not brains for complimentary players that Sid and G would have been able to carry... when they were 27. But not now. But I think more could have been done and if cleaning out the bench did little to nothing and you lose Mike Sullivan... oh well. Do we want that guy developing the next wave of Penguins, anyway? I definitely don't.